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The S2 PMA with David Farkas

robmac

Well-known member
DMR - nah, shot one but never owned one (NICE files). I limit my Leica exposure to R glass on a 1Ds2. Do lust after a RF though. Shot a borrowed M7 and M8 for awhile - good times.

Most people who call me "smart" usually do so with a couple of extra letters attached to the end...

You could slice & dice the numbers to say 32MP, but I think the market will say call it based on MP count. That said, maybe somewhere in between makes sense. Depends which way Solms wants to justify it. Given their resources, pricing history, etc - I'd say my $15K example will likely be $5K+ light. Should start a pool.

Of course who knows what will happen between now and then - least of which with FX rates and Leica's (read Dr K's) cost of capital/cash flow between now and final release.

Going to be interesting times no matter which way it goes.
 

robertwright

New member
yes can we bring up how crazy the 3:2 format is...? cropping becomes a must. not sure what they were thinking there. a lot of wasted real estate.
 

carstenw

Active member
The H3DII-31 currently costs 12000 Euro as a kit with 80mm lens, and the H3DII-39 costs 15000 Euro. The only price indication so far was that Leica was aiming for 15000 Euro, but no indication if that includes the 70mm lens. If they make 15000 including a lens, then I think it is competitive.
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
yes can we bring up how crazy the 3:2 format is...? cropping becomes a must. not sure what they were thinking there. a lot of wasted real estate.
I guess this is a matter of perspective. I routinely print 20x30 and find I have to crop too much from a 4:3 sensor.

David
 

georgl

New member
"market-experienced 800 lb Gorillas (H and M/P)"

Leica is much bigger than Hasselblad, Mamiya and Phase One together and Dr. Kaufmann invested more money into the S2 (>30Mio € about 100Mio € including other investments related to the S2 and other digital systems / Leitz-Park) than anybody in this segment ever did.

The technical data is promising, many aspects are unique (sealed, smaller, faster...) and everybody who knows what todays Leica-lenses are capable of, won't discuss about 30x45mm vs. 36x48mm or 37,5MP vs. 39/50MP.

Right now, the most conserative (closing a modular system, <2000$-lenses with Canon IQ/build-quality) MF-systems seem to survive, while the most promising systems are crushed by banks (hopefully the last word on the Hy6 isn't spoken) or other shortsighted economists and another innovative system is already bashed everywhere months before it gets released...

It's the first big-digital-MF-project with unique solutions (like ASICs instead of DSPs) we only knew from giants like Canon/Nikon before (not everybody wants high-speed-press-cameras) and I'm curious to see what this system will be capable of.

By the way, the digital compartment of the DMR was Imacon (today Hasselblad), the M8 Jenoptik (Sinarbacks) and both were unique solutions others weren't capable of, just as their drawbacks are not transferable to the S2m which is by the way real Leica, just like the S1.

But that's not the point of this discussion at all, am I right? It's about Leica, not about their strategy, their products, their quality - just about Leica...
 
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dfarkas

Workshop Member
Hi David see you in the morning any more good news going on the blog tonight.
Hey Guy,

I actually plan on going out shooting tonight with the 24 Lux and 18 Super-Elmar. Of course, anyone who is attending the demo tomorrow and is in town tonight is welcome to join me. The more, the merrier. I think I want to head out around 5-6ish and catch some good light.

As far as news goes, this show is a bit slow on that (especially compared to Photokina). I'll try to get a few more answers on some of the S2 strategy questions and post what I can (NDA-allowing), but for last night's post I was more focused on highlighting some of the cool new features and tech in the S2.

See you at the Leica booth in the AM.

David
 

robertwright

New member
I guess this is a matter of perspective. I routinely print 20x30 and find I have to crop too much from a 4:3 sensor.

David
agreed, my unstated perspective is that my clients should drive my equipment acquisitions which makes sense both as a money issue and a deliverables issue....

well...if only

why did I buy the M8? or go to rangefinder Mamiya 7 for magazine portrait work? not exactly tailor made.

I should be as wise as my mouth....:eek:

the popularity of the 3:2 format has always surprised me. verticals are definitely weird.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Hey Guy,

I actually plan on going out shooting tonight with the 24 Lux and 18 Super-Elmar. Of course, anyone who is attending the demo tomorrow and is in town tonight is welcome to join me. The more, the merrier. I think I want to head out around 5-6ish and catch some good light.

As far as news goes, this show is a bit slow on that (especially compared to Photokina). I'll try to get a few more answers on some of the S2 strategy questions and post what I can (NDA-allowing), but for last night's post I was more focused on highlighting some of the cool new features and tech in the S2.

See you at the Leica booth in the AM.

David

David I know a few of our guest may want to play with those two lenses tomorrow and like to see them in action myself. See how long Leica will let you play. Catch you in the morning
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Leica is working with C1 for raw processing and i certainly hope tethering as well. These systems need tethering as you know. This is a big part of MF is tethering and I have seen Phocus in action and obviously I use c1 and both great tethering programs. I don't know of Leaf and Sinar since I never played with them tethered
FYI: Leaf has an excellent teathered program.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Thank You Marc. I hate to talk about Leaf because I just don't know them well enough but I do have a lot of respect for there backs
 

robmac

Well-known member
Not in the MF market... (or any market outside of the RF, having all but walked away from R glass production).

Technology, $$ invested in R&D and nice features (as yet still on paper) don't make a market success - in fact it's probably at or near the bottom of the top 10 factors to as to why a product succeeds (or not).

Far, far more depends on management smarts, forward thinking beyond the lab, distribution, and marketing, etc., than the bits/bytes.

As for the money invested in the S2 vs Phase backs and Hassy - I'll let company/distributor reps on the forum debate who spent what if they feel inclined. That said it doesn't matter what P/M or H invested -- they ARE the MFDB market (especially in NA) and OWN the rental house shelves.

Customers and rental shops don't buy your gear because you invested more in the tech than the other guy. The R&D pain is the first of the endless 'cuts' you need to endure to get those customers and rental shop owners thinking of you and (hopefully) investing in you first vs. the other guys.

Want to sell a MFDB shooter an S2 kit? The odds are probably 80/20 you'll need to pry a Hassy or Phamiya kit out of their hands first - either of which have dropped in resale like a stone over the last year. You'll also need to convince them that the re-education process and the new-product-risk and the Leica-specific-risk (especially early on) is a worthwhile path to go down.

Is Leica going to offer a buy-out program to buy installed base? Don't think so. Tech aside, it's going to come down to marketing and PROVING the worth of the S2 vs. the competition AND it's reliability AND it's support structure with overwhelming evidence starting with professional owner #1.

Otherwise, given Leica's track record in digital bodies, the moment the bad press starts (IF there is any), the eyes on this thing will see it snowball among the pro market with thoughts of along the lines of "...here they go again..." - as they reach for their (now secure) Phase/Hassy/Leaf kit.

If that starts, it's bye-bye S2, bye-bye R10 and more likely than not an eventual bye-bye to Leica given what they have riding on thus (admittedly gorgeous) puppy.

Lust (for me as well) over Leica's (on paper at least) S2 tech and desire/wish for them to succeed with it won't stop me (or others) from being open-minded enough to state they REALLY have their work cut-out for them - in part:

- Because of the market they want to break virgin ground into
- Because of their track record in digital
- Because of their size
- Because of how dismally suited their (current) S&S structure is to the MF market
- Because of their utter lack of share in the rental market
- Because of the competition
- Because of their pricing tendencies/necessities
- Because of the simple fact that the DSLR depreciation curve is now firmly rooted in the MFDB market
- Because of the world's worst timing (from an economic perspective).

Now, all that said. If they pull it off - it will make a hell of a business case.

"market-experienced 800 lb Gorillas (H and M/P)"

Leica is much bigger than Hasselblad, Mamiya and Phase One together and Dr. Kaufmann invested more money into the S2 (>30Mio € about 100Mio € including other investments related to the S2 and other digital systems / Leitz-Park) than anybody in this segment ever did.

The technical data is promising, many aspects are unique (sealed, smaller, faster...) and everybody who knows what todays Leica-lenses are capable of, won't discuss about 30x45mm vs. 36x48mm or 37,5MP vs. 39/50MP.

Right now, the most conserative (closing a modular system, <2000$-lenses with Canon IQ/build-quality) MF-systems seem to survive, while the most promising systems are crushed by banks (hopefully the last word on the Hy6 isn't spoken) or other shortsighted economists and another innovative system is already bashed everywhere months before it gets released...

It's the first big-digital-MF-project with unique solutions (like ASICs instead of DSPs) we only knew from giants like Canon/Nikon before (not everybody wants high-speed-press-cameras) and I'm curious to see what this system will be capable of.

By the way, the digital compartment of the DMR was Imacon (today Hasselblad), the M8 Jenoptik (Sinarbacks) and both were unique solutions others weren't capable of, just as their drawbacks are not transferable to the S2m which is by the way real Leica, just like the S1.

But that's not the point of this discussion at all, am I right? It's about Leica, not about their strategy, their products, their quality - just about Leica...
 
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D

DougDolde

Guest
Hey Guy, you gonna sell your Epson 3800 to get this ? :ROTFL::ROTFL:
 

Dale Allyn

New member
I guess this is a matter of perspective. I routinely print 20x30 and find I have to crop too much from a 4:3 sensor.

David
This echoes my feelings as well. I really do not like the aesthetic of the 4:3 ratio (though there are exceptions).
 

arashm

Member
wait
the S2 is 3:2 :wtf:
please tell me I miss-understood...
I know some like this ratio and I respect that, but 3:2 in vertical is just horrible :angry:
the last thing I want to do is drop out the screen and put 3:4 pencil marks on it and then spend the rest of my life cropping out the top and bottom of every image :cry:
am
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Okay, here's my 3 cents worth.

If the lens line up couldn't be ready, Leica should have launched this pup bundled with the 30-90 wide to short tele Zoom ... then those high meg DSLR users would have a reason to hold out for the launch, and pros like Guy could get into the system immediately with a one lens purchase. A priority should have been put on that lens production. Plus, provide a certificate for purchasing one additional lens at a discount when the other lenses launch.

They should take a hint from Sinar by launching the S2 with an automatic longer warranty attached ... one that is transferable. Maybe for purchases during just the first 6 months after launch date.


That Leica is seemingly silent concerning service and an on-the-ground dealer network is either an indication of lack of grasping this important aspect, OR they have something brewing that will answer that issue definitively. If it's not definitive, then THAT will be the weak link to the Pro market ... whether it's high-end 35mm DSLRs or MFD users. Just go to the Nikon service and warranty site to see how effective and efficient service can be ... at least according to my experiences.
 
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