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Thread: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

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    Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    greetings all,
    I joined the group in 2009, kept my head down but have gained much knowledge + I found my P45 with Live View here.
    so Thank you esp. Admins.
    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...ghlight=ocarlo
    2016 - and I'm only halfway through my projects. They just seem to keep on breeding.
    I have a $$ and workflow decision to make soon, and could use some input/feedback.
    RZ Pro IID, P45, 4 Elinchrom Rangers, 2 Profoto AcuteBs. All manual, 50 asa, handheld metering. That's as technical as I care to go.

    I stage scenes to photograph, in war zones in central Africa. It's not photojournalism, unless I'm staging fake ones.
    I'm not dodging bullets (so far), have some control over the situation, and for the coming shoots, will have 3 months
    and the time to do one image a day.
    Problem: need more bigger pixels. Low budget and huge production costs, including a small film crew alongside..I have to get real, and unsentimental quick.
    Attachment 120299

    1) 80mp back - good deals out there under 15,000. Trade my used P45 towards used IQ180 back. Chris Snipes at CI- am chewing on it.
    2) stick with my P45 as a glorified preview machine, and shoot 120 film backs off my RZ - As from the uploaded samples, I shoot vertical with overlaps for each person, then stitch in Pshop. If I shoot film, that's 2 or 3 rolls (x2 if I bracket once) for each image, to be drum-scanned and then the laborious stitching.
    Anyone doing this - shooting film and stitching?, and can give me a sense of how much $$ and labor to pro scan 12-24 frames, for a single image?
    I'm looking at about 60 final images over 3 months of work - yikes - though something tells me it'll still be cheaper than buying a used back...
    3) 4x5 - I do have a Deardorff, but in my dusty, very public and very armed environment - too labor intensive.
    Unless I flew in an assistant. Then I might as well go 80mp back.
    This might let me shoot and stitch 2 or 3 horizontal frames only vs. 24 for one image - but then again, with vertical frames, I'm able to light each person individually from off-screen. Every option has pluses and minuses.

    Just wondered: Does Phase One in Denmark or Leaf have a loan or short-term lease program for not-famous certified artists?
    Creative Capital - Investing in Artists who Shape the Future
    Any recommendations for a tripod/head/nodal point thingie for a heavy RZ ProIID?
    If my limit is a used IQ180 or Leaf Aptus-12 only, are they at least better at quick focus checking than the P45?

    Why more pixels? I'm aiming for 3 or 4ft by 12ft, or 24ft or longer. Test strips of P45 files so far at pro printer don't pop.
    I'd also like the option of cropping into frames from different images, and recombining...
    Always, it boils down to money. I can always adapt, and change the entire plan...nothing sacred here..Guess I'm just thinking out loud, wanting to share my process, and continue my due diligence. Thanks for any input or advice.Attachment 120300

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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Quote Originally Posted by ocarlo View Post

    Why more pixels? I'm aiming for 3 or 4ft by 12ft, or 24ft or longer. Test strips of P45 files so far at pro printer don't pop.
    I'd also like the option of cropping into frames from different images, and recombining...
    For clarity's sake, were your test strips from P45 files stitches or single frames? If the latter, I'm thinking that stitching with the P45 may be a viable alternative to the RZ stitch scenario. Where I am, a high res pro scan of a 120 neg runs about $50-$60 or so.

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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    I am not sure I quite understand what you want to do, but I can offer some answers about stitching.

    First: the difference between your P45 and the 80mpix back is not that huge: you will only be able to print twice as big. Will that be enough?
    Second: color 120 film will have slightly lower detail than your P45. 4"x5" will be better, but not that much. Probably stitching will be the only solution.

    Now about stitching. Manfrotto has a good panorama head, the MH057A5 (and MH057A5-LONG). It is sturdy enough to support a MF camera, although I am not sure that the RZ would fit. I use it with an Hasselblad camera. Hasselblad publishes the position of the entry pupil for all their lenses, that is a great help.

    The question, however, is whether your subject are adapted to stitching? It is not very practical to use stitching with people as a subject.

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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Carlo,

    We're confused about your process. How do you make the outdoors / background look continuous? Do you have all the people arranged / spread out in one large outdoor area? Then you move the camera and lights so you can light each person individually. Then stitch all the pictures together to make it look like all the people were shot in one big picture at the same time.

    So now you want to shoot and stitch 2 or 3 horizontal frames only for one image. But then you wouldn't be able to light each person individually.

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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    As other have said an increase from 39 to 80 megapixels is not that large, 7216x5412 vs 10328x7760, that is on one side there's only 43% more pixels.

    In other words if you print 4 feet with wide panorama with the 39 you only get 5.7 feet wide with the 80 for the same ppi print. To get a significant difference for your panos you need to stitch, and if you stitch maybe you can stick with your P45+.

    But yes, focus check actually works on those 80MP backs you mention, unlike on the P45+ if that's an important feature to you.

    I guess the advantage with 120 film is that you can do a 6x17 pano in one shot, if you already have the camera. On a 4x5" camera you only fit 6x12 though. How does a scanned 6x17 shot compare to a cropped 80MP shot? 170mm long edge is 6.7 inch, so an 80MP back would yield resolution corresponding to a 1540 ppi scan. It will be a matter of debate if the film or digital will have better quality. Objectively you will be able to extract more detail from the 6x17 with a high end drum scan at say 4000ppi, but you'll get more grain so the 80MP print may look more clean.

    Personally I think film with its grain can have an advantage when oversizing prints, the grain structure look more organic, while the digital can look a bit plastic.

    The panos you mention look however so extremely wide so I guess you'd want to stitch anyway and then digital stitching seems much more practical than messing with film.

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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    I am not sure if I understand your creative vision completely, but why not shoot the people in the studio and the backgrounds separately and then composite them in post?

    This means that you can light the people as you want and shoot vertical, then use a variety of available landscape shooting and stitching techniques to create the extremely wide backdrop you want and then composite the people as you see fit.

    You could even shoot the people with the P45 and the landscapes with a 6x17 film camera. Provided your pre-vis and post production skills are up to scratch, matching the two should not be a monumental task.

    Since you are not doing photojournalism and thus, not limited to accurate portrayals, I think this might be a vialble solution.

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    Senior Member DougDolde's Avatar
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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Film is dead, give it up.

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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Quote Originally Posted by DougDolde View Post
    Film is dead, give it up.
    In a couple of years, the same can be said for CCD. (And this had happened for myself two years ago for my specific use cases.)

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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Anyone up for a poll on the stupidest post of the year?
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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Quote Originally Posted by med View Post
    For clarity's sake, were your test strips from P45 files stitches or single frames? If the latter, I'm thinking that stitching with the P45 may be a viable alternative to the RZ stitch scenario. Where I am, a high res pro scan of a 120 neg runs about $50-$60 or so.
    Thanks for the reply. I refer to the long image above. I had several strips from the final stitched Photoshop file.
    wow. $50 huh. x say 25 frames per final image = $1, 250. not good.

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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    I am not sure I quite understand what you want to do, but I can offer some answers about stitching.

    Now about stitching. Manfrotto has a good panorama head, the MH057A5 (and MH057A5-LONG). It is sturdy enough to support a MF camera, although I am not sure that the RZ would fit. I use it with an Hasselblad camera. Hasselblad publishes the position of the entry pupil for all their lenses, that is a great help.

    The question, however, is whether your subject are adapted to stitching? It is not very practical to use stitching with people as a subject.
    Thanks. I'll look into the head - but sounds like my RZ with add-ons will be quite heavier than a Hassy.
    Stitching - I understand the issues with people, and am careful. But I like the control over a single person than a group. The landscape is just a backdrop. At the last minute, I still have the option of cutting up the frames and taping them together for a crude effect.

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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Quote Originally Posted by steve_cor View Post
    Carlo,

    We're confused about your process. How do you make the outdoors / background look continuous? Do you have all the people arranged / spread out in one large outdoor area? Then you move the camera and lights so you can light each person individually. Then stitch all the pictures together to make it look like all the people were shot in one big picture at the same time.

    So now you want to shoot and stitch 2 or 3 horizontal frames only for one image. But then you wouldn't be able to light each person individually.
    Steve,
    All the stitching info I could find was for landscape. So I improvised, making sure that, worst case, I could present the final images
    as groups of 3-4 people only, or crudely tape 3-4 groupings and make a virtue of it.
    I find a central position for looking left to right, and plant my tripod.
    I frame vertically, make two passes of about 24 frames each, with different focus planes. My backup for layering in later, should I need it. Specially since I had to guess at nodal point stuff. Going left to right with each shot, I shoot people individually - with a spot on boom from offscreen - and with overlaps to the next person up..and so on. The one above took about 5 hours.
    With what now appears to be a crazy bill just for pro scans, I'll have to rethink individual shots with film. I can maybe still do lighting 2 or 3 people individually with spots from offscreen. Just making **** up as I go along.

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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    As other have said an increase from 39 to 80 megapixels is not that large, 7216x5412 vs 10328x7760, that is on one side there's only 43% more pixels.

    In other words if you print 4 feet with wide panorama with the 39 you only get 5.7 feet wide with the 80 for the same ppi print. To get a significant difference for your panos you need to stitch, and if you stitch maybe you can stick with your P45+.

    But yes, focus check actually works on those 80MP backs you mention, unlike on the P45+ if that's an important feature to you.

    I guess the advantage with 120 film is that you can do a 6x17 pano in one shot, if you already have the camera. On a 4x5" camera you only fit 6x12 though. How does a scanned 6x17 shot compare to a cropped 80MP shot? 170mm long edge is 6.7 inch, so an 80MP back would yield resolution corresponding to a 1540 ppi scan. It will be a matter of debate if the film or digital will have better quality. Objectively you will be able to extract more detail from the 6x17 with a high end drum scan at say 4000ppi, but you'll get more grain so the 80MP print may look more clean.

    Personally I think film with its grain can have an advantage when oversizing prints, the grain structure look more organic, while the digital can look a bit plastic.

    The panos you mention look however so extremely wide so I guess you'd want to stitch anyway and then digital stitching seems much more practical than messing with film.
    Thanks torger for the objective data. What has changed in my thinking: shooting 120 film the same way I'm using my P45 is crazy expensive. Using 6x17 deprives me of lighting control - unless I have 7 assistants with booms. I'd still bring my 4x5 for when I can do two shots to cover the entire pano length, and then I'd only have to drumscan two 4x5 negs. Finally, shoot much shorter panos. Some situations, I will only shoot two people across a 120degree field of view. I don't think panorama or landscape. I think individual portraits, but sharing space.
    I should add that the focus thing is definitely huge, from my experience. I've lost quite a bit thinking I'd nailed it, then crying later.
    There's also no situation really where I can tether to my laptop.
    Also, this pano portrait thing is only one of several series'. I'm also shooting traditional studio beauty shot, and also staged crowd scenes as if I was a journalist with a Dslr. I think I'm talking myself into a 80mp as we speak. cheers

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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Synn -
    Quote Originally Posted by synn View Post
    I am not sure if I understand your creative vision completely, but why not shoot the people in the studio and the backgrounds separately and then composite them in post?

    This means that you can light the people as you want and shoot vertical, then use a variety of available landscape shooting and stitching techniques to create the extremely wide backdrop you want and then composite the people as you see fit.

    You could even shoot the people with the P45 and the landscapes with a 6x17 film camera. Provided your pre-vis and post production skills are up to scratch, matching the two should not be a monumental task.

    Since you are not doing photojournalism and thus, not limited to accurate portrayals, I think this might be a vialble solution.
    Synn - As you said, accuracy is not a concern at all. Logistics, practicality and safety are. I'm in eastern Congo. 43 armed militias, next door to post-genocide Rwanda, and a freaked-out gov't. Here, studio is a relative term, and its technically illegal to photograph without permit. A "studio" with strobes popping in town is inviting trouble. More important to me, my shoot ideas, and the subjects I want, are often 8 hours drive deep into the bush, over non-roads, in the rainy season. And its easier to get the locals and authorities to permit me to play, if I go farther out. The film I'm making alongside is also about the disruption I create when I plant a "studio" in places where I really shouldn't.
    Putting a landscape behind a person shot at 3/4 frame on bluescreen is one thing. Shooting 12 of them, individually lit, and placed at different depths, is another..sides, I'm too lazy for hardcore post-production...btw, as I indicated, I have more standard formats at play in other series' (beauty shots, fashion-y ****, formal group portraits - and some of them are exactly what you described. I just screw around with it more, playing up the artificiality... cheers.

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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Anyone up for a poll on the stupidest post of the year?
    So - solving a real-world photographic problem that cuts across formats and post-production,
    in a photographic forum is "stupid" huh? and making a poll for stupid posts is a totally creative cool use of your time??

    Film is dead? please. What is this, a camera club competition for the latest gear?
    I don't give a hoot if I have to squeeze raccoon blood on to paper to load into my view camera,
    if it works for what I need now. Y'know, real photographer's problems.

    No sweat, I'm out - getDPI def not the same.
    Last edited by ocarlo; 4th August 2016 at 15:43.

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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Quote Originally Posted by ocarlo View Post
    GetDPI def not the same.
    Sadly, it isn't quite what it once was.
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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    Sadly, it isn't quite what it once was.
    clearly. One doesn't expect to be surprised, and I haven't explored the other fora,
    so I have no sense of how widespread. No big loss to pull up stakes, it seems.
    cheers

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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    ocarlo,

    I think you are misreading. The claim of "stupid post" was not aimed at you! You are right that this place is not what it once was, and I have had to use the Ignore feature too many times for comfort in recent years, but there are good people here with positive ideas to contribute, and not all are equipment zealots.

    I regret that I have no ideas on your photographic problem, but I'm glad to see this discussion.

    Best,

    Matt
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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Dear all, esp. stephengilbert and MGrayson,
    Do I laugh, and/or cry, or just keep on spanking myself?
    My sincerest apologies.
    A perfect storm:

    -- crazy pseudo-3G wifi here just makes tense your default mode. Certainly feels more precious than logging in
    from a Starbucks on 6th Ave and 24th St.
    -- not normal day stuff, but just before logging in, had a screaming match with a soldier and his AK.
    beating up a street kid. Its not Syria, but two large refugee camps are within 5 miles.
    And you never do that - unless you're already feeling badass yourself all day.
    -- I'm sure you've all felt the adrenaline when lightbulbs switch on in your head, after months of gestating,
    and a workflow to make it happen must be sorted out, budgets etc..now!
    and you just can't accept waiting for six months, waiting on money - and move!, everyone out of my way,
    cos its as clear as day, all of it. At least for me. Four cups of kickass African coffee in two hours helps too.
    -- sheer shock. Stuff like that doesn't happen here in getDPI, even just the almost-trolling kind..

    More embarrassingly, I'd thought of myself as pretty savvy around online fora, and troll-wise, not my first cha cha.
    Anyways, I left more puzzled than angry. I have learned a lot here, and have seen lots of knowledge shared, with congeniality,
    enough for me to know that didn't make sense - and maybe I'd got it all wrong. Maybe the sequence of posting?....

    I ramble on, cuz I suppose emotion is part of workflow, or should be, at least. To the gents that wrote offline, thank you.
    Please accept my apologies, everyone. back to regular programming.
    Seriously, not being near a dealer, or a working studio, or not in business enough to actually hold the damn things in your hand -
    its amazing how learning new details from you guys have already changed my thinking. So thanks, too.
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    Re: Workflow Problem: Samples

    Very sheepishly putting back the samples.
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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Quote Originally Posted by Connor Ray View Post
    someday maybe. Yes, I've done the required drooling over it.
    Unfortunately, unless I had an army of assistants each lighting a person,
    it wouldn't work. cheers.

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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Tell me if I understood correctly:
    -you are taking panoramic pictures with people
    -you are stitching individual images
    -each individual image is lit separately, assistants may move the lights between images
    -you want more resolution than what your P45 is capable of (39 mpix), to print 3 feet tall (0.9m).

    For the final print to be 3" tall, you would need about 7200 pixels vertically to print at 200dpi. The IQ180 is 10328 x 7760, so that would work if you just pan horizontally and take individual pictures in the "landscape" orientation.

    Can you take individual pictures in the portrait orientation? Can you stitch more than one row?

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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    [QUOTE=jerome_m;701135]Tell me if I understood correctly:
    -you are taking panoramic pictures with people

    Yes. I imagine a grouping of people. As in the very long sample, you could say this group is a kind of village council
    of the area that the warlord controls as his main base. I then find a location that can give me a sense of their environment,
    but is not my primary consideration. My main thing is doing individual portraits. By sprinkling them around, at different depths,
    and in mini-groupings, I also then get relationships to each other, or against each other, while getting a sense of their physical world.
    while allowing me to spread them out, and create ini-groupings that speak of relationships.

    -you are stitching individual images
    -each individual image is lit separately, assistants may move the lights between images

    Yes. Here's me flying by the seat of my pants.
    Once I've got the sub-groupings in my head, I place them in their spots and place markers,
    now having the full spread clear in my head.
    then clear everybody out.
    My tripod is placed center to the imagined final frame from left to right.
    I compose for vertical, and then do a pass of individual frames overlapping, from L to R. - once with infinity in focus
    and another pass with the space in between my closest subject, and infinity.
    I had no sense of how I would deal with different planes of focus, and hoped that exposing for strobe,
    held on a boom overhead each subject, would give me depth of field. If not, I'd layer in from the focus layers below.
    I then repeat the process, shooting only one person at a time, from L to R, until I get to the overlap between the first and the second person, and so on...
    Aside from my film shooter, I really only have locals (farmers, policemen etc..) to work as PAs and lighting, in a rowdy crowd atmosphere..

    -you want more resolution than what your P45 is capable of (39 mpx), to print 3 feet tall (0.9m).
    For the final print to be 3" tall, you would need about 7200 pixels vertically to print at 200dpi. The IQ180 is 10328 x 7760, so that would work if you just pan horizontally and take individual pictures in the "landscape" orientation.

    sounds good. As the above long pano was really my main test, with the P45, I had to shoot vertically only. I've since decided to be more sensible, and aim for shorter lengths. The long sample, for example, is now 4ft x 56ft...need to rethink all that.
    I can always jam several panels together to create an impression of length. As well, I could probably stop aiming for seamless stitching,
    like one would for pure landscape, and live with that.

    I expect however, to be shooting large groups for a while - so I'd have to figure out how to shoot more manageable shorter spreads, while making sure that I could reasonably stitch several groupings together, and clone and heal the seams where they meet.
    And I'm sure a proper pano head would help a lot.

    right now, 80mp back seems the most efficient compromise - considering I'm shooting a lot more traditional formats than just the panorama. Thanks a lot, and if there are any suggestions, I'd love to hear them.
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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    This is my 3 cents worth. (inflation and all). How big are the final prints to be? It would seem to me that 45MP is more than enough to get the job done. I print 60" prints off of 12 MP. If it is sharp and you have a reasonable ISO so noise is not an issue, I just cannot imagine that you won't be able to make prints of any size that even at smelling distance won't be wonderful and thread count sharp. I now use a 36 MP Nikon and at base or near base ISO, locked down on a tripod, I cannot imagine what the upper limit might be in print size.

    I know I will hear from people explaining pixel length etc, but in a real world situation once you get up into those 36-45-65 MP ranges, the print size is fairly unlimited. I have been studying with one of the guys that was in that core group of PhotoShop consultants and I asked him about this very problem concerning one of my images. This is what he told me. "Give me 12 MP of really sharp properly exposed digital capture at base ISO and just tell me how large you want it to be." The guy prints for museums and such so that is my 3.5 cents worth, I added a little extra value.
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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    [QUOTE=jsf;701181]This is my 3 cents worth. (inflation and all). How big are the final prints to be? It would seem to me that 45MP is more than enough to get the job done. I print 60" prints off of 12 MP. If it is sharp and you have a reasonable ISO so noise is not an issue, I just cannot imagine that you won't be able to make prints of any size that even at smelling distance won't be wonderful and thread count sharp. I now use a 36 MP Nikon and at base or near base ISO, locked down on a tripod, I cannot imagine what the upper limit might be in print size.

    Thanks for the real-world perspective. I've heard it said as well, or have inferred from my own reading.
    A used 80mp back is still a lot of $$ for me, at least. I do have a grant, as major as they go, but I do have other major production issues like flights, local transport etc, a crew to house and feed over three months..though, one's main capture device is pretty major.

    The main issue is, its almost all in my head - I've never had a print the size I imagine, I've never shot with anything MF digital other than my P45. I'm gonna take care of that soon as I get back stateside, for sure...Yet, I just know. Cropping in, flesh tones, major focus issues with my eyes, improved interface, better sensors, a little more headroom...I'm kinda all alone out there, big crowds, drunk soldiers - so anything that can help me speed it up, and have confidence in the shot I just took is golden...
    I'm no techie by a long shot - its always been 5o asa, all manual everything, since back in the day. But a little future-proofing seems like not a bad thing.
    I'll call that a bit of a vote of confidence in myself.
    Thanks for the input - you definitely got my head buzzing tonight..

  27. #27
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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    A few further comments:

    1: you can stitch panoramas as wide as you like providing that the camera rotates around the entrance pupil or the lens. To determine the position of the entrance pupil, check these sites:
    http://www.johnhpanos.com/epcalib.htm
    http://zooroomtechnologies.com/zr_Bl...rticle012.html
    https://www.nikonians.org/reviews/pa...upil-of-a-lens

    2: the longer the lens, the less accurate the adjustment of the position of the entrance pupil should be. If you shoot outside and have plenty of space, use a long lens.

    3: if you only do a single row, you don't really need a full pano head, just some kind of berth to attach your camera in position, preferably with an adjustable position. That can be an adjustable slide or a bar with a row of holes for your camera screw. As these are relatively simple mechanics, you could probably find a local machinist to build you the parts for relatively little money in Africa, although you may need to find someone versed in both photography and engineering to explain what you need. But maybe you have technical people in your party?

    4: the resolution of your P45 will do the 3" tall print job if you can shoot the individual pictures in portrait position.

    5: you are using an RZ 67 Pro IID. Panoramas will be easier with a lighter, smaller camera, either a Mamiya 645 or Hasselblad H1 for your back or even a Sony A7Rii.

  28. #28
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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    A few further comments:

    1: you can stitch panoramas as wide as you like providing that the camera rotates around the entrance pupil or the lens. To determine the position of the entrance pupil, check these sites:
    http://www.johnhpanos.com/epcalib.htm
    http://zooroomtechnologies.com/zr_Bl...rticle012.html
    https://www.nikonians.org/reviews/pa...upil-of-a-lens

    2: the longer the lens, the less accurate the adjustment of the position of the entrance pupil should be. If you shoot outside and have plenty of space, use a long lens.

    3: if you only do a single row, you don't really need a full pano head, just some kind of berth to attach your camera in position, preferably with an adjustable position. That can be an adjustable slide or a bar with a row of holes for your camera screw. As these are relatively simple mechanics, you could probably find a local machinist to build you the parts for relatively little money in Africa, although you may need to find someone versed in both photography and engineering to explain what you need. But maybe you have technical people in your party?

    4: the resolution of your P45 will do the 3" tall print job if you can shoot the individual pictures in portrait position.

    5: you are using an RZ 67 Pro IID. Panoramas will be easier with a lighter, smaller camera, either a Mamiya 645 or Hasselblad H1 for your back or even a Sony A7Rii.
    thanks for the links. I did try a simple nodal-finding thing, but yes, if I get that down, its one less thing to worry about.
    Local technology can't help. But I'll be coming home for 6 months (NY) and plan to work all my issues out.
    I do have a AFDIII - never used it, just a backup - but I'm kinda attached to my RZ.

    I do have a brain teaser for myself... Right now, I'm working from a fixed tripod at the center of my imagined final frame.
    Panning left to right.
    If I already have the subjects' positions fixed and marked anyway, is there a difference to the final stitch - if I move my tripod to face each grouping or individual - Keep the same lens/same frame/same exposure but be able to light better than one guy with a strobe on a boom pole. Will shoot generous overlaps of course. Basically I'd "track" along a horizontal line, L to R, until I get to my last subject. As opposed to "panning" from a fixed position in the center. One might worry about getting a good stitch out of all that. But if I wasn't, and took care to overlap, and kept the tripod on this imaginary horizontal line...
    Am I asking for too much trouble post-wise?

    Reason: I want to prioritize shooting each grouping as its own final image - and still be able to assemble all of them into a stitched single pano image.
    Which is another reason for more pixels - I have groups at different distances to camera, and must keep one consistent frame/exposure for all these groups. Re-framing for each group will likely mess up the final stitched pano. With more pixels I have the option, if I ditch the pano idea, of zooming into the subjects farther out.

    Thanks, and sorry for the questions. I am simple-minded, in a way, and would rather ask now than be sorry out there.

  29. #29
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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Quote Originally Posted by ocarlo View Post
    If I already have the subjects' positions fixed and marked anyway, is there a difference to the final stitch - if I move my tripod to face each grouping or individual - Keep the same lens/same frame/same exposure but be able to light better than one guy with a strobe on a boom pole. Will shoot generous overlaps of course. Basically I'd "track" along a horizontal line, L to R, until I get to my last subject. As opposed to "panning" from a fixed position in the center. One might worry about getting a good stitch out of all that. But if I wasn't, and took care to overlap, and kept the tripod on this imaginary horizontal line...
    Am I asking for too much trouble post-wise?

    Yes, you are. If you move the tripod between shots, the individual pictures will not stitch (unless the subject is flat, this was done to photograph each houses individually in a long street).

    From the geometry alone, the best way to do your project is to have the subjects in a circle around the camera. If you use stitching software, choose the "cylindrical" perspective.

  30. #30
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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    You are most likely very correct there.
    Hmm...more tweaks to the workflow then.
    Nice thing now is I now have the time to shoot over two days
    what I'd cram into 4 hours. Never thought of shooting in a circle.
    Time to test out all this, including renting backs. yes. Thank you sir.

  31. #31
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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Quote Originally Posted by ocarlo View Post
    You are most likely very correct there.
    Hmm...more tweaks to the workflow then.
    Nice thing now is I now have the time to shoot over two days
    what I'd cram into 4 hours. Never thought of shooting in a circle.
    Time to test out all this, including renting backs. yes. Thank you sir.
    you are really brave not only because of the location and circumstances of you project but also because of the equipment you are going to use, in my commercial world camera and data backup options would have a much higher priority than resolution. so not even remotely would i consider a rz with an old digital back. in my view the best option for this task would be to have 2 canon 5dsr with the l 24-70 2,8 zoom lens and some high quality primes. this setup has many advantages - immediate backup because you can use 2 cards in camera - the zoom allows you to better adjust the framing - you have some deep of filed advantage compared to mf which can make stitching and composition easier - you can shot jpg and raw and use the jpg´s to build panoramas on location for preview even on an ipad or phone - you save money....

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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    you are really brave not only because of the location and circumstances of you project but also because of the equipment you are going to use, in my commercial world camera and data backup options would have a much higher priority than resolution. so not even remotely would i consider a rz with an old digital back. in my view the best option for this task would be to have 2 canon 5dsr with the l 24-70 2,8 zoom lens and some high quality primes. this setup has many advantages - immediate backup because you can use 2 cards in camera - the zoom allows you to better adjust the framing - you have some deep of filed advantage compared to mf which can make stitching and composition easier - you can shot jpg and raw and use the jpg´s to build panoramas on location for preview even on an ipad or phone - you save money....
    Thanks for your thoughts. Every input or reaction is really helpful, and I'm not being just polite.
    Especially because of my environment, I have to think things through.
    Hard to explain, but my work as a UN video producer over 15 years means I know my terrain.
    I know how to deal with armed men, with warlords, govt officials...thats a huge part of this workflow.

    Being simple-minded really just means, for me, prioritizing the levels of choices, then disregarding most everything right from the start.
    1 - camera - I get leaf-shutter action in the bright African sunlight, RZ glass is great, system is cheap, shutter makes that ka-chunk sound that startles everyone - great sound. And that it looks strange to most people is important to me. The same effect as using an 8x10 view camera. It stops time, slows things down, and takes the shooting experience to a strange place for the subject.
    By the same logic, anything DSLR is out - simply because in a war zone, people are used to seeing Western journalists with dslrs and zooms.
    Beyond that, I ignore every other consideration. glass quality / chromatic aberration stuff etc...

    I'm also old enough to know the smell of Dektol, and Polaroids for testing. I love knowing just enough - got exposure, have bracketed enough, have backed up - OK, its in the can, and then move on. Whatever is the final result, I'll deal with all that much later. And hope to be surprised.
    That way, I get more time on prepping the whole situation, lighting for effect - then have the time to step back and think.

    In a way, (especially for the film I'm making) the real camera is the studio itself - this strange flashing strobing hi-tech disruptor machine with 3 white boxes, C-stands - that I then plant into unlikely places. Often, I have to spend time explaining that I'm not a journalist, and I'm not here to do interviews about the war. I always show respect, I pay every sitter a week's wage, and with a portable printer, always hand out 4x5 color prints - to people that have never known anything close to it. I put on a show, really, and it always translates well. While secretly channeling Avedon and Gregory Crewdson in my head.
    The panorama thing is also something thing I had to do, only because I'd never done it. When I go back to do lots more, and stitching becomes a PITA, I'll find a way to incorporate the bad stitching later. Maybe use gaffer's tape to "stitch" the final prints...Mostly, everything else is standard beauty / portrait / staged crowd scenes...
    Last edited by ocarlo; 8th August 2016 at 04:40.

  33. #33
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    Re: Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

    I'd take a look at Eric's Credo 80 kit: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/gear-fs-...f-80mm-ls.html

    It would certainly be easier to use than on the RZ.

    And Eric is a trusted GetDPI family member...

    ken

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