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Thread: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

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    LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    I am now semi retired and shoot mainly for pleasure with some portraits and Group shots. I would only need a prime and a Portrait lens for what I do. Anyone can give me their experience with either. Thank you

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    If you would like image stabilization, you should check into the Pentax 90mm as a portrait lens.

    https://pentax.com.au/products/22210


    Although Pentax 645Z doesn't use leaf shutter lenses.

    Think about what features are your priorities. That will narrow down your choices. The Leica SL is not medium format. Is medium format a priority?



    --Steve.

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Hi, I don't have experience with either. But, I had a Leica M-P type 240 which did a nice job. And after trying out a medium format Leaf Aptus II-8 I sold all my Leica gear because the files seem so much nicer with the bigger sensor. It's hard to describe exactly what that means but it's there.
    Hope that helps.
    Greg

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Portraits are probably the area of photography where lens rendering is the most important, so your choice should be based on the lenses and not on the camera. I can't say that I have been impressed by Pentax in that respect, but all this is a question of taste, of course. Still: it is quite easy to find a dozen sample portraits taken with a given lens and get a feeling whether you like it or not.

    Lenses which I find most interesting for their rendering.

    • Leica S
    • Hasselblad HC
    • Leica M and SL
    • Older Minolta glass, "G" series and STF
    • Canon L




    Then there is the question of shutter if you use strobes outside.

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Quote Originally Posted by rollsman44 View Post
    I am now semi retired and shoot mainly for pleasure with some portraits and Group shots. I would only need a prime and a Portrait lens for what I do. Anyone can give me their experience with either. Thank you
    This is a pretty broad question. Without previous preferences for portrait and group work on your part, it could be almost anything. Do you shoot more candidly and/or more spontaneously? Or do you work with the subjects to get what you want? Do you use lighting, or at least bounce reflectors?

    I tend to agree that it is the lenses that dictate choice as much or more than the camera. Or, at least, lenses can be a primary criteria in picking the camera system. Yet, there is one camera criteria that I do look at when choosing ... how natural it renders skin tones right out of the camera. I passed on buying a Leica M246 because of the skin tones.

    This decision further complicated by narrowing the choice between a 35mm verses a Medium Format system. All that I can say is that I have 35mm and MFD systems for my people work, and almost always chose the MFD to do portraits and group shots.

    My current MFD kit is a Leica S(006) ... and for Portraits/Groups I gravitate to the S-100/2 (roughly a 75/1.4 in 35mm terms), and a CS-35/2.5 (28/1.8ish) for groups.The S lens rendering across the lens line-up is the best of any I've used to date.

    That said, in past I bought into the Hasselblad H system partially because of their HC-100/2.2 with a rendering that reminded me of a Leica M-75/1.4.

    If MFD benefits of more real estate and resolution don't necessarily sway the decision ... then the SL should be looked at more closely. BTW, get your hands on one ... I was surprised how big and heavy it was!

    Do you want AF? If so, then the SL with adapted Leica R-85/1.4 or R-90/2 (portrait), R-35/1.4 or R-50/1.4 (group) are eliminated despite their wonderful rendering.

    - Marc

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    I appreciate the great feedback. I agree about the lenses. I am going to stay with the Pentax 645Z . You all have made my decision Much easier. Thank you.

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Back when the Leica SL was announced and I mentioned that I was very interested in one, someone asked me why I'd pick it over the Pentax 645Z. My answer then was the same as I respond now, with three quarters of a year of SL usage behind me: I absolutely love the rendering qualities of the Leica lenses, particularly my old Leica R lenses, and haven't got the same feel from Pentax 645 lenses despite enjoying the use of a Pentax 645 film camera for some years. The SL has a very good sensor, excellent native lenses, and compatibility with all my Leica R and M lenses ... it's fast and responsive, handy in a way that 35mmFF can be and medium format isn't. It's what I chose then and what I'd choose now.

    If I am going to go with medium format for the qualities of the larger sensor, I'll be sticking with my favorite Hasselblad V system: the Zeiss lenses I have for it perform, to my eye, head and shoulders beyond anything I ever had out of Pentax 645. A Leica S system would be terrific but it's out of my price range. The new Hasselblad X1D would be another possibility; you might want to look at that since the initial two-lens system offering is about what you were looking for in lenses.

    G

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    The Leica SL is a luxury camera for enthusiasts who want to be able to say that they own a Leica. The 645Z is a professional camera for anyone who thinks with their head and doesn't need luxury branding to make them feel warm and special inside.

    That said, the 645Z is a big camera. If you are ok with that, then there you are. If not, there are many cameras better than the SL for 1/3rd of the price. Unless of course, you think the world's biggest variable aperture zoom for 35mm sensors is something to write home about.
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Lenses definitely play a big parts. Try the Pentax 645 150mm and 90mm. They are quite amazing. They are probably not quite a S 100mm but I find them great with their own strengths.

    Quote Originally Posted by rollsman44 View Post
    I appreciate the great feedback. I agree about the lenses. I am going to stay with the Pentax 645Z . You all have made my decision Much easier. Thank you.

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    As a suggestion, make sure you complete an AF calibration on each new lens you get.

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    The Leica SL is a luxury camera for enthusiasts who want to be able to say that they own a Leica.
    I don't own a Leica SL, and probably never will. But I find your statement a bunch of hogwash, no need to generalize, there's plenty of people who own a Leica to use it just like any other camera.
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    I don't own a Leica SL, and probably never will. But I find your statement a bunch of hogwash, no need to generalize, there's plenty of people who own a Leica to use it just like any other camera.
    I mean it's a 7 thousand dollar camera with sensor performance lagging behind the original A7. Sure anyone could buy it and make great use of it but why on earth would they? To get the best out of those two equally overpriced and oversized variable aperture zooms? Wow, exciting. Then as we all know from the long thread on this site about Leica service horror stories if the thing breaks down your personal hell has only just begun. The M is one thing and I am glad it exists, I loved mine and was forced to sell it recently because I need a car for a relocation from NYC. But the SL? It's an inferior copy of better cameras wrapped in some nice metals and paint. Hard pass. At least when Hasselblad announced the X1D they were smart enough to make two lenses available AT LAUNCH. And the X1D with a lens is cheaper to boot. Do I have to spell this out or something? What does not compute? Even if you want the best 35mm mirrorless can offer an A7RII with Batis lenses is as good as it gets. But why does that not work? Oh yeah because it's so scary to be driving with a Sony instead of the red-dot fever. Even though Sony sensors are the best in the business and the BSI sensor in the A7RII is state of the art bar none, no way, you can pay 3 times as much and say you have a Leica!!! I would never talk anyone out of buying the M or the Q, but every other camera they make (or fake) has some fatal flaw even beyond the absurd prices.
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    I don't own a Leica SL, and probably never will. But I find your statement a bunch of hogwash, no need to generalize, there's plenty of people who own a Leica to use it just like any other camera.

    well i did buy a m-p last year to see what all this is about and sold the camera again early this year. the color rendering is special for sure, but at the same time i think its probably a filter inside the camera.
    because the same lenses on my sony do not reproduce the same colors.

    i think the only camera that can be taken seriously, for professional work, is the S line (not SL). The rest IS overpriced way too much, though i have to say, the M-P did feel awesome in my hands, i liked the heavy weight in that small package for sure.

    but one should also think about all the other limitations, like "just" 24mp in their current line up, and what did annoy me the most was the very limited long exposure capability, till ISO 800 you can do exposures till 32", anything above will stop at 8 seconds....three letters, WTF, why do the leica cameras with their cmosis sensors even have a bulb mode.

    and that being said, despite that there are small points that make me do miss that little camera, its overpriced that simply does not deliver.

    my money would be on the pentax for sure, much more mp, very good long exposure capability!

    cheers

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    First, let me thank you all for contributing your experience. I have the 645Z but was considering buying the Leica SL and see which was better for me then sell one of them. I decided to Keep the 645Z. I do like the S1 but I was fortunate enough to handle it at B&H a few months ago. ITS HEAVY and without the lens. Way too heavy for me. The 645Z is really not that bad in terms of weight and handles very well. So, for now I wii hold on to it. I have several Prime lenses which I like very much. Over the years of buying and selling different cameras and lenses I realize that I still have to Post Process the images so why spend a fortune . Thanks again. The forum members are Super people.

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Quote Originally Posted by rollsman44 View Post
    First, let me thank you all for contributing your experience. I have the 645Z but was considering buying the Leica SL and see which was better for me then sell one of them. I decided to Keep the 645Z. I do like the S1 but I was fortunate enough to handle it at B&H a few months ago. ITS HEAVY and without the lens. Way too heavy for me. The 645Z is really not that bad in terms of weight and handles very well. So, for now I wii hold on to it. I have several Prime lenses which I like very much. Over the years of buying and selling different cameras and lenses I realize that I still have to Post Process the images so why spend a fortune . Thanks again. The forum members are Super people.
    You're welcome, I'm glad to help out for what little I can.
    I hope you the Pentax 645Z delivers what you're looking for.

    G
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    I mean it's a 7 thousand dollar camera with sensor performance lagging behind the original A7. Sure anyone could buy it and make great use of it but why on earth would they? To get the best out of those two equally overpriced and oversized variable aperture zooms? Wow, exciting. Then as we all know from the long thread on this site about Leica service horror stories if the thing breaks down your personal hell has only just begun. The M is one thing and I am glad it exists, I loved mine and was forced to sell it recently because I need a car for a relocation from NYC. But the SL? It's an inferior copy of better cameras wrapped in some nice metals and paint. Hard pass. At least when Hasselblad announced the X1D they were smart enough to make two lenses available AT LAUNCH. And the X1D with a lens is cheaper to boot. Do I have to spell this out or something? What does not compute? Even if you want the best 35mm mirrorless can offer an A7RII with Batis lenses is as good as it gets. But why does that not work? Oh yeah because it's so scary to be driving with a Sony instead of the red-dot fever. Even though Sony sensors are the best in the business and the BSI sensor in the A7RII is state of the art bar none, no way, you can pay 3 times as much and say you have a Leica!!! I would never talk anyone out of buying the M or the Q, but every other camera they make (or fake) has some fatal flaw even beyond the absurd prices.
    I have no problem with your opinion on the technical capabilities of the SL camera (although you forgot to mention weather sealing), but I remain with my point that it's bad form to take a dig at the owners of that camera in general. In my mind that's not the spirit of GetDPI. We should come here to discuss technical aspects of systems and enjoy photographs, and not to stereotype owners of certain equipment.
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Sticking with the Pentax does seem like a good idea. Personally, I found it odd to be comparing the SL to your Pentax. They are such different tools ... about the only similarity is the camera price.

    IMO, these days it requires a lot of compelling reasons to walk away from a set of tools you already have in hand. While we all love the thrill of new gear, and exploring what it can do ... in reality, most of this stuff is more than capable, and it is up to us to make something of it. "Lilly Pad Jumping" from one system to another rarely yields better results ... these are just machines, and machines aren't creative, we are.

    The Love/Hate halo surrounding Leica is nothing new. From a 100% rational perspective it is hard to justify many of their offerings ... which usually means perceived cost-to-value ratio. However, photography isn't a 100% rational pursuit. Leica makes unique tools which we are free to like or not. Their Rangefinder M and MM delivers that rangefinder experience, and those that do not get what that means will never understand the price/value ratio. Same for the S system which also delivered a unique experience and set of features. I'm sure those indulging in the SL feel the same way.

    BTW, I'm getting pretty tired of someone inserting Sony A7/A7R-II arguments into every freakin' discussion about other cameras. I own and use a A7R-II, with some very nice Zeiss lenses, and also use a few excellent Leica M optics on it. I do not think it is the paragon of cameras and honestly do not believe it delivers IQ anywhere up to it's specifications on paper. The price/value ratio looks great on paper ... but in the end, IF you aren't subjectively smitten by the IQ it delivers, it is a mediocre price/value ratio.

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    I have no problem with your opinion on the technical capabilities of the SL camera (although you forgot to mention weather sealing), but I remain with my point that it's bad form to take a dig at the owners of that camera in general. In my mind that's not the spirit of GetDPI. We should come here to discuss technical aspects of systems and enjoy photographs, and not to stereotype owners of certain equipment.
    While I may also question why someone may choose to use a specific brand of camera, and am a passionate advocate of the 645Z, I also value the tone and culture of this site and would be very sad to see that eroded. We generally seem to have a gentle, supportive mood...
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Without further thinking - there is only one choice - Leica SL

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Without further thinking - there is only one choice - Leica SL
    Why? It is not a medium format camera. Perhaps, the fabulous price is in that area but the sensor size would indicate otherwise.

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Why? It is not a medium format camera. Perhaps, the fabulous price is in that area but the sensor size would indicate otherwise.
    Vivek - If you like, start a thread asking Sl owners and shooters why they like their SL - because I don't want to go off topic in here.

    I'll give you my reasons including comparisons between the SL AND Sony / Nikon and Leica M in 35mm format shooting.

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    I shot with the 645Z for a few months and loved the quality of the files I was getting, but in the end the size and weight of the camera along with my favorite lenses for the system (the Pentax 90mm and 28-45mm) was too much for me and I sold it.

    I am currently using the A7RII and the Leica Q, and I vastly prefer the ergonomics of the Q - to me the Leica is just a joy to use and that makes a huge difference to me. I thought about moving from the A7RII to the SL and tried it out, but I didn't get quite the same feeling using it as the Q, plus it felt very big and heavy with the zoom on it. More importantly for my needs, I realized I would miss the larger resolution files of the A7RII, since I sell large prints (often 40" x 60" and sometimes bigger), and the ability to crop the larger files helps when needed.

    Now I have the Hasselblad X1D on order and am either going to drop my Sony gear entirely or keep it for those occasional uses where I know the X1D won't work (like super wide and super telephoto). It's pretty amazing how many lens options there are for the A7RII, but to tell the truth I like the idea of simplifying my choices so I don't always have to decide on which gear to bring and use. You may want to consider waiting and checking out reviews of the X1D (or the soon to be announced Fuji medium format mirrorless), if the lens choices make sense for you (I can pretty happily live with the Hasselblad 45mm, 90mm and forthcoming 30mm for the majority of my needs).

    That being said, if you can live the with size and weight of the 645z, it has the same sensor as the X1D so perhaps sticking with the 645z might make sense.

    Peter
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    On the surface level this seems like an incoherent comparison by every sense of the meaning except price. If you need a larger megapixel count there's no comparison. If you need the speed then there's no comparison either. Seems to be conflicting needs where you may need a system for deliberate shooting and one for the speed/lightweight nature of things.
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Hi Pieter,

    I do think that it is nothing wrong about being polite. I would say it is hard to discuss disparate systems like the Pentax 645Z and the Leica SL.

    It is interesting to note that the Leica SL has a different type (and make?) of sensor from the Leica S (typ 007) and the Leica M (typ 240). How I know, see the data from BClaff posted below.

    One thing to note is that good lenses on 24x36 mm are often big lenses. The Otuses, new Milvus designs and the GM lenses for the Sony are all big and fat lenses. Leica M-lenses are small and good on the other hand.

    Regarding "red dot bias", this article is an interesting read: https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/201...a-sony-a7r-ii/
    Story spoiler: Two Leica shooters and a skeptic guess Leica vs. Sony in a blind test. Interesting results and comments.

    This link to Bill Claff's data tells a story, not necessarily about DR, but shows that the SL uses a sensor with quite different characteristics. The bump at 400 ISO may indicate that the sensor employs the "Aptina patent", described here: http://www.photonstophotos.net/Aptin...WhitePaper.pdf

    http://www.photonstophotos.net/Chart...,Pentax%20645Z

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    I have no problem with your opinion on the technical capabilities of the SL camera (although you forgot to mention weather sealing), but I remain with my point that it's bad form to take a dig at the owners of that camera in general. In my mind that's not the spirit of GetDPI. We should come here to discuss technical aspects of systems and enjoy photographs, and not to stereotype owners of certain equipment.

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    I realize there will be pros and cons for both cameras. Its a Personal thing so I will go with what I have now. Again, thank you all for your input.
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ...
    IMO, these days it requires a lot of compelling reasons to walk away from a set of tools you already have in hand. While we all love the thrill of new gear, and exploring what it can do ... in reality, most of this stuff is more than capable, and it is up to us to make something of it. "Lilly Pad Jumping" from one system to another rarely yields better results ... these are just machines, and machines aren't creative, we are.

    The Love/Hate halo surrounding Leica is nothing new. From a 100% rational perspective it is hard to justify many of their offerings ... which usually means perceived cost-to-value ratio. However, photography isn't a 100% rational pursuit. Leica makes unique tools which we are free to like or not. Their Rangefinder M and MM delivers that rangefinder experience, and those that do not get what that means will never understand the price/value ratio. Same for the S system which also delivered a unique experience and set of features. I'm sure those indulging in the SL feel the same way.

    BTW, I'm getting pretty tired of someone inserting Sony A7/A7R-II arguments into every freakin' discussion about other cameras. I own and use a A7R-II, with some very nice Zeiss lenses, and also use a few excellent Leica M optics on it. I do not think it is the paragon of cameras and honestly do not believe it delivers IQ anywhere up to it's specifications on paper. The price/value ratio looks great on paper ... but in the end, IF you aren't subjectively smitten by the IQ it delivers, it is a mediocre price/value ratio.
    I agree completely.

    Why some on this forum feel that they must dis Leica, Leica owners, Leica prices, and cheerlead Sony equipment, regardless of what thread or question was posed ... I have no idea. I wish they'd just stop it and discuss the questions posed.

    G

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    You guys have to learn to turn the other cheek.

    And how is it that trashing Sony is different that trashing Leica?
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    You guys have to learn to turn the other cheek.
    And how is it that trashing Sony is different that trashing Leica?
    I don't participate in Sony discussions any more. I also don't 'trash Sony' even though my experience with Sonys was not particularly positive.

    This thread is supposed to be about the Pentax 645Z vs Leica SL. Post 8 by Speedgraphic, unbidden, dissed the SL and Leica owners in an insulting/inflammatory way. He went on to cheerlead the Sony A7RII two or three posts later, after Pegelli responded, then other Sony enthusiasts jumped in the bandwagon to trash Leica.

    So when you ask such questions, you might want to do so in the context of the horsepucky that's gone on. It's rude to dis anyone's equipment, regardless of what equipment it might be.

    G
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi Pieter,

    I do think that it is nothing wrong about being polite. I would say it is hard to discuss disparate systems like the Pentax 645Z and the Leica SL.

    It is interesting to note that the Leica SL has a different type (and make?) of sensor from the Leica S (typ 007) and the Leica M (typ 240). How I know, see the data from BClaff posted below.

    One thing to note is that good lenses on 24x36 mm are often big lenses. The Otuses, new Milvus designs and the GM lenses for the Sony are all big and fat lenses. Leica M-lenses are small and good on the other hand.

    Regarding "red dot bias", this article is an interesting read: https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/201...a-sony-a7r-ii/
    Story spoiler: Two Leica shooters and a skeptic guess Leica vs. Sony in a blind test. Interesting results and comments.

    This link to Bill Claff's data tells a story, not necessarily about DR, but shows that the SL uses a sensor with quite different characteristics. The bump at 400 ISO may indicate that the sensor employs the "Aptina patent", described here: http://www.photonstophotos.net/Aptin...WhitePaper.pdf

    Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Best regards
    Erik
    Farm boys in Australia have a saying when it confronted with silliness - " useful as tits on a bull"

    I don't understand the point you are trying to make putting up comparisons between MF larger chip DR specs and B&W anecdotal tests regarding people's ability to pick what camera made what B&W converted or otherwise shot. There are so many variables involved that all I can say is that tests like this appeal to simple minded people trying to dress up their prejudices with oblique citations of irrelevancies.

    Sorry If I sound harsh - but if you want to push an agenda -and do it well - try actually using a camera, posting some shots and be relevant to the discussion at hand.

    The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous to any serious photographer anyway why would anyone wish top compare a big fat box with big fat lenses to a 35mm type camera? They are different tools for different purposes and outcomes - with overlapping functionality that is at best forced and at worst doomed to failure. The only real question being asked by OP is about price/value across different formats and different platforms - and as we all know that such comparisons are doomed by definition.

    As for Sony V Leica- who cares except a bunch of internet warriors. I have never been able to spot the difference between this or that file between this or that camera on the internet save for rendering of lenses and the utterly useless propensity of too many to zoom in 200X and peer at pixels. I enjoy every camera and lens I own or I sell them and I gave up caring about what other photographers think I should or should not be shooting with decades ago.

    People spending 10K an upwards on digital toys must surely by now figured out that they better do their own due diligence and figure out what works for them ! and if forums liek this are to be helpful in people's evaluations- less aggro and grandstanding would go a long way towards helping achieve that goal.
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  30. #30
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Hi Peter,

    The OP asks for advice about the Leica SL and the Pentax 645Z. It may be interesting to know that Leica uses at least two different sensor designs, Leica are a bit tight lipped about it.The OP may not be interested in DR curves but it is at least exactly the cameras he is asking about.

    I also make the small point that most good lenses are big. Interestingly the Leica M lenses are both good and small - but Leica M is not what the OP is considering. He is happy owner of the Pentax 645Z but considered the Leica SL - to save weight.

    I do post a lot of images, where I think there is a relevant context. But I don't think web size images give a lot of useful info.

    Regarding that anecdotal test, it is not that anecdotal, as it is published by the lady who made it and commented on by the participants. Lensrentals is a very significant operation with over 100 employees renting out a lot of photographic gear so they have some experience with stuff.

    Just to say, I have actually bought at least two cameras at above 10k without ever touching them before buy. The Hasselblad 555/ELD and P45+ I bought from Poland, and I have never seen any digital back in real life before that. I have been lucky on that one, I have been told by a former P45+ owner that my sample is better than the P45+s that he used (he had some loaners during repairs). That former P45+ owner now shoots the Phase One 100 MP back and Pentax K1.

    The Sony A7rII and a bunch of lenses was also about 10k. I checked out all tests and downloaded the manuals before buying, but I was waiting for that camera for several years. It is more about feature set than en emotional relation.

    Whatever tool you get you need to learn it and you don't learn by having a dealer demonstrating it.

    In a way, it is interesting. Those guys doing testing have some experience with a lot of gear and they often publish usable raw images and some sites also publish measurement data, but all that information is worthless compared to dabbling with a copy of the gear at a camera shop with a salesman trying to sell the camera.

    That said, I guess that Capture One and Digital Transitions actually offer good advice, but they do that in the US and not in Sweden where I happen to live.

    Just to say, I have been dabbling with a Leica S in a Leica oriented shop in Luxemburg. I have not been the least impressed by it. Does it make it a bad camera? I don't think so. We also looked at some decent size prints and noted a good one in their exhibition space. The guy who made it said that exactly that shot was with the Canon 5D in some variant. You can make awesome good prints from any modern gear, it is more about subject, composition, illumination than gear. On the other hand, placebo effects are very strong. (*)

    As a side note, the new Hasselblad X1D may be the camera he is looking for, same sensor as in the Pentax 645Z but small and with a couple of very good lenses. Priced on level with the Pentax 645Z and Leica SL. Uses the same sensor the Pentax 645Z the OP already owns.

    Best regards
    Erik

    (*) In the "anecdotal tests" at least one of the prints had some colour fringing, quite impossible on the Leica Monochrome that is a B&W device. The Leica users noticed it but choose to ignore it as the "colour fringed" image did have more of the Leica look.

    A parallel is that thee were very strong options about CMOS colour when the Leica M (typ 240) arrived. A Leica dealer in Miami, Dave Farkas, posted a three part series of images, having readers tell which was which. Here is the summary: » The Great Debate: CCD vs. CMOS – Part 3


    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Farm boys in Australia have a saying when it confronted with silliness - " useful as tits on a bull"

    I don't understand the point you are trying to make putting up comparisons between MF larger chip DR specs and B&W anecdotal tests regarding people's ability to pick what camera made what B&W converted or otherwise shot. There are so many variables involved that all I can say is that tests like this appeal to simple minded people trying to dress up their prejudices with oblique citations of irrelevancies.

    Sorry If I sound harsh - but if you want to push an agenda -and do it well - try actually using a camera, posting some shots and be relevant to the discussion at hand.

    The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous to any serious photographer anyway why would anyone wish top compare a big fat box with big fat lenses to a 35mm type camera? They are different tools for different purposes and outcomes - with overlapping functionality that is at best forced and at worst doomed to failure. The only real question being asked by OP is about price/value across different formats and different platforms - and as we all know that such comparisons are doomed by definition.

    As for Sony V Leica- who cares except a bunch of internet warriors. I have never been able to spot the difference between this or that file between this or that camera on the internet save for rendering of lenses and the utterly useless propensity of too many to zoom in 200X and peer at pixels. I enjoy every camera and lens I own or I sell them and I gave up caring about what other photographers think I should or should not be shooting with decades ago.

    People spending 10K an upwards on digital toys must surely by now figured out that they better do their own due diligence and figure out what works for them ! and if forums liek this are to be helpful in people's evaluations- less aggro and grandstanding would go a long way towards helping achieve that goal.
    Last edited by ErikKaffehr; 13th September 2016 at 21:41.

  31. #31
    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    I just think that we should be able to separate offering insights/opinions that are useful from labelling people for their choices or debating in a way that's unnecessarily adversarial. Not about having a thick or a thin skin but about why people get so much out of this place. It has qualities that are rare on the Internet! It's a place where gentlemen and gentlewomen (and gentle intersexed people) can be comfortable.

    Ironically I agree with many of the views put above about the desirability and value of the options, but that's a different issue from how we go about the discussion.

    A personal view only...
    Ed Hurst, www.spiffingpics.com
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Basically, all these debates make full circle to being nothing more than empirical opinion with support cherry picked from what-ever source that may agree with that opinion. The Prosecutor trots out their "expert" witness, and the Defense trots out their own.

    I can say with experiential certainty gained over decades of market testing of product attributes, ideas, images, etc., that amateur "blind tests" are a ruse with predictable results. The most notable examples of which are "blind taste tests". Pepsi verses Coke, this beer verses that beer, a fine wine verse a cheap one ... and when we actually see the results, it is aways the under-dog beating the other guy. What appears impartial is hardly so, because there is a human dynamic with such comparative tests that requires a highly trained moderator skilled in analyzing human behavior. Think or believe what you will, I've seen it in action as an ad man for nearly 40 years.

    Our unique experiences, our prejudices, our predilections, all combine to form opinions of what we want in our tools. Fortunately, there is a host of choices to try and match those opinions. Unfortunately, choosing one over the other usually involves some sort of short fall of total desires. All we can do is get as close as we can, and then work around the short falls.

    To The OP:

    Since you seem to be keeping the Pentax, and was considering the SL due to size, perhaps there are things you can do to mitigate the size/weight issue with the Pentax? I think as time goes on we'll see some really big optics with wallet vaporizing price tags for the SL ... starting with the promised 50mm. So the size/weight difference may not be all that great in the end.

    I had the same considerations, first with a Hasselblad H kit, then with my current S(006) kit. I helped mitigate the size/weight issue by using a Camadapter Arca type dual lug camera plate ... then a hand strap connected to one side of the camera, and a wide springy shoulder strap connected to the other side. Big difference. I also use a carbon-fiber monopod with a RRS HD Monopod head.

    - Marc
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi Peter,

    The OP asks for advice about the Leica SL and the Pentax 645Z. It may be interesting to know that Leica uses at least two different sensor designs, Leica are a bit tight lipped about it.The OP may not be interested in DR curves but it is at least exactly the cameras he is asking about.

    I also make the small point that most good lenses are big. Interestingly the Leica M lenses are both good and small - but Leica M is not what the OP is considering. He is happy owner of the Pentax 645Z but considered the Leica SL - to save weight.

    I do post a lot of images, where I think there is a relevant context. But I don't think web size images give a lot of useful info.

    Regarding that anecdotal test, it is not that anecdotal, as it is published by the lady who made it and commented on by the participants. Lensrentals is a very significant operation with over 100 employees renting out a lot of photographic gear so they have some experience with stuff.

    Just to say, I have actually bought at least two cameras at above 10k without ever touching them before buy. The Hasselblad 555/ELD and P45+ I bought from Poland, and I have never seen any digital back in real life before that. I have been lucky on that one, I have been told by a former P45+ owner that my sample is better than the P45+s that he used (he had some loaners during repairs). That former P45+ owner now shoots the Phase One 100 MP back and Pentax K1.

    The Sony A7rII and a bunch of lenses was also about 10k. I checked out all tests and downloaded the manuals before buying, but I was waiting for that camera for several years. It is more about feature set than en emotional relation.

    Whatever tool you get you need to learn it and you don't learn by having a dealer demonstrating it.

    In a way, it is interesting. Those guys doing testing have some experience with a lot of gear and they often publish usable raw images and some sites also publish measurement data, but all that information is worthless compared to dabbling with a copy of the gear at a camera shop with a salesman trying to sell the camera.

    That said, I guess that Capture One and Digital Transitions actually offer good advice, but they do that in the US and not in Sweden where I happen to live.

    Just to say, I have been dabbling with a Leica S in a Leica oriented shop in Luxemburg. I have not been the least impressed by it. Does it make it a bad camera? I don't think so. We also looked at some decent size prints and noted a good one in their exhibition space. The guy who made it said that exactly that shot was with the Canon 5D in some variant. You can make awesome good prints from any modern gear, it is more about subject, composition, illumination than gear. On the other hand, placebo effects are very strong. (*)

    As a side note, the new Hasselblad X1D may be the camera he is looking for, same sensor as in the Pentax 645Z but small and with a couple of very good lenses. Priced on level with the Pentax 645Z and Leica SL. Uses the same sensor the Pentax 645Z the OP already owns.

    Best regards
    Erik

    (*) In the "anecdotal tests" at least one of the prints had some colour fringing, quite impossible on the Leica Monochrome that is a B&W device. The Leica users noticed it but choose to ignore it as the "colour fringed" image did have more of the Leica look.

    A parallel is that thee were very strong options about CMOS colour when the Leica M (typ 240) arrived. A Leica dealer in Miami, Dave Farkas, posted a three part series of images, having readers tell which was which. Here is the summary: » The Great Debate: CCD vs. CMOS – Part 3
    Hi Eric,

    I am glad you are so passionate about your photography - and yes I forget that some people don't have easy access to equipment for testing. I hope you and everyone else that posts on this forum have much enjoyment making snaps - we all share a common love - for photography. Here is a snp taken with my Sl and a 50 lux - reminding me that we are all here to serve.

    Cheers
    Pete

    L1010188.jpg by Peetey, on Flickr
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Eric, thank you for sharing your personal experience with S1 . I plan on using a Monopod as much as I need to so I can ensure MORE steadyness and chance of less blur. I would still consider the S but will need to see which one that will benefit my needs.S006,S007 Thank you. If there are any other posts that share the S experience please let me know. Thanks

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Quote Originally Posted by rollsman44 View Post
    Eric, thank you for sharing your personal experience with S1 . I plan on using a Monopod as much as I need to so I can ensure MORE steadyness and chance of less blur. I would still consider the S but will need to see which one that will benefit my needs.S006,S007 Thank you. If there are any other posts that share the S experience please let me know. Thanks
    I shoot with many friends who use and like the S, but even though I own and use the XF+100, I find the S over the top for what one gets especially since the 100MP sensor came out.

    Those same S users comment that even over the internet they see something special in my 100 images versus what they obtain.

    That said, I do not consider the XF combo for street or walkabout use. I use it on tripod for landscape, but when I want, it can also be used as a great indoor or studio kit.

    When I used the Pentax 645Z I found it sufficed for walkabout, indoor, studio and landscape use. Excellent all around camera with excellent image quality as you must now know. Pentax and Sony engineers must have had a few productive meetings in order for Pentax to implement the 50MP Sony sensor in the way it currently works. Today it seems that a brand new 645Z can be purchased for around $6k in the US with some dealer calling around.

    You seem to have extreme GAS and even though I have not availed myself of this option, perhaps renting some other kits you desire to know more about might be more productive for you and help you settle on the tool you find works best for your specific needs.

  36. #36
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    I don't shoot either one so the best advice which I have not seen anyone mention is rent and see what fits you best.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I don't shoot either one so the best advice which I have not seen anyone mention is rent and see what fits you best.
    Guy, agree! That's exactly what I suggested in the post just above yours.

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    The real problem here is your comparing apples to grapefruit it's a really big difference in gear. Problems are format size, glass, sensors and a whole list to compare against extremely difficult. Really this is a huge gap in gear. It's not MF vs MF but smaller lighter different format with half the MPX. Makes my head spin thinking about it. I guess to get smaller in MF today it's very hard as most systems are around the same weight, bulk and size for a comparable comparison with same Sesotho. I would venture to say the new Hassy would be a nice option too here. You get a great 50mpx sensor in a smaller package. I would say that would be a more comparable system to the SL than the Pentax which is kind of a big kit. This one is a tough one, really hard to give advice as the spread is like jumping the Grand Canyon with one leg. Lol

    Anyway keep it friendly folks.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Just to remind everyone here here is the OPs first post

    I am now semi retired and shoot mainly for pleasure with some portraits and Group shots. I would only need a prime and a Portrait lens for what I do. Anyone can give me their experience with either. Thank you



    Me

    its pretty simple he does not need a whole line of glass and it sounds like he wants a simple solution and being retired now maybe does not want to spend a boat load of money but maybe wants something nice to shoot. Thats the way I read it. And my take he is not making money from it so whats the budget one may ask. Did anyone ask did you even consider something different that maybe a better option. All I have read here is shoot my brand or you will be wrong if you don't. Guys got to give up that crap your brand is not the best for everyone. Just saying you want a great forum get off the brand ****. Guys Im reading it that way as that is what your saying as be perceived that way. Not sure what to say about that. Im a third party reading it that way. Open your minds there are a lot of great products today.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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  40. #40
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Hi Rollsman,

    If you refer to my impression, I was just dabbling with it for like 15-30 minutes. I was not familiar with the camera. It was well built, but most cameras are reasonably well built. AF was noisy and not very fast. I did not have my Sony A7rII at that time and so I could only compare to my A99 with a big Zony 24-70/2.8. I got no good vibrations or bad vibrations. Just as an example that a dealer visit doesn't tell a story.

    I would check out the X1D and the Fuji MFD camera that may or may not be presented at the Photokina.

    Hasselblad is smart enough to make affordable and small lenses for the X1D.

    Best regards
    Erik



    Quote Originally Posted by rollsman44 View Post
    Eric, thank you for sharing your personal experience with S1 . I plan on using a Monopod as much as I need to so I can ensure MORE steadyness and chance of less blur. I would still consider the S but will need to see which one that will benefit my needs.S006,S007 Thank you. If there are any other posts that share the S experience please let me know. Thanks

  41. #41
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    I would at least do yourself the favor of looking at the new Hassy. If it was me and not shooting on a Pro level that is a intriguing camera to look at. Right now I need more options with it but certainly keeping my eye on it. That sensor is really really good and regardless of body it come downs to the glass and sensor especially for portrait type stuff as how everything renders. FYI I shot Phase for years with 5 different backs so I am very neutral to this stuff.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  42. #42
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Guy,

    Yes I agree. There are a few good things about the X1D.

    • It is affordable, that is not a bad thing…
    • Right now, it is the only EVF/mirrorless in the MFD game
    • The lenses are right size. Relatively small lenses on a small body. You give up a bit on maximum aperture but the large Sony sensor will offer benefits at high ISO.

    Personally, I am not that interested in buying the X1D, in part because I spent a bit to much on other systems. But, based on what I have read about it combined with what I know about the sensor I would say it is a very interesting camera, especially if someone wants MFD, 50 MP sensor and low weight.

    Best regards
    Erik



    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I would at least do yourself the favor of looking at the new Hassy. If it was me and not shooting on a Pro level that is a intriguing camera to look at. Right now I need more options with it but certainly keeping my eye on it. That sensor is really really good and regardless of body it come downs to the glass and sensor especially for portrait type stuff as how everything renders. FYI I shot Phase for years with 5 different backs so I am very neutral to this stuff.

  43. #43
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    With the Hassy there will be a adapter for use with some H lenses that are very nice for portrait work. Bigger and bulkier but nonetheless available today. I think it should be considered for the OP because it sounds like maybe a good combination of smaller size but MF attributes.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Did anyone ask did you even consider something different that maybe a better option. All I have read here is shoot my brand or you will be wrong if you don't.
    Have you read message #4 in this thread?

  45. #45
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: LEICA SL or Pentax 645Z

    I skimmed but glad you asked . Thanks
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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