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Thread: S2 and my impressions.

  1. #101
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Now, a birdy told me something really big is coming from Hasselblad ... totally up there in the stratosphere, and is something no one is expecting in their wildest dreams.

    I'm trying to confirm, but that damned company is like Fort Knox when it come to info. If it's even close to true, the H3D-39 will become a semi-pro camera priced as an entry level kit.

    Holy-moly ... stay tuned.

    If you never hear from me again, black opps from Sweden took me out
    Ahh, rumours...

    Maybe black opps from Sweden told the birdy to tell you about this Super Secret Mother of all Cameras. Maybe the Scandinavians/Japanese are just panicking because of the stellar IQ the S2 is going to deliver. Just speculating here, just like you and your trusted birdy

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Hum, I thought I heard some guys in black Nomex whispering in Swedish by some black-out C130 at the local airbase the other day. Looked like they were passing thru -- headed East.

    Now if your little birdy wasn't smokin' the good stuff, all I can say to the various significant others out there is hide the credit cards, call the bank manager and kill the paypal accounts. My fingers are starting to twitch just envisioning what will happen in the used sub-39 MP market if said event should come to pass.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Now, a birdy told me something really big is coming from Hasselblad ... totally up there in the stratosphere, and is something no one is expecting in their wildest dreams.

    I'm trying to confirm, but that damned company is like Fort Knox when it come to info. If it's even close to true, the H3D-39 will become a semi-pro camera priced as an entry level kit.

    Holy-moly ... stay tuned.

    If you never hear from me again, black opps from Sweden took me out

  3. #103
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I'd have to totally agree that the 35mm DSLR segment is overwhelmingly larger than MFD, and it has grown/is growing exponentially, mostly to the general public that shoot below 800, never test the buffer and use kit lenses. However, I seriously doubt "Mom" is going to spring for a Leica S2 in place of her $800. digital Rebel to shoot the kiddies ... unless her cookie jar bank is the size of Mt. Everest. Wedding shooters using the big meg 35mm DSLRs are a tiny, tiny minority, and even fewer use MFD. The $2,700. Canon 5D/5DII is GOD in weddingville ... and remember, wedding shooters need two of everything. Pros that use a 35mm DSLR do so for specific reasons that the S2 doesn't deliver. If the S2 goes after the R8/9 folks, who's going to buy the R10?
    Marc,
    I was not suggesting "mom" was going to be the target market at all. What I have seen happening, is that as more folks get and use DSLRs, even then entry level stuff, there is a growing pressure on the working pros to start looking for ways to differentiate what they are doing and shooting from what "everybody" thinks they have and can do. We already talk about the reasons for the higher MP counts, bigger files, etc. A lot of 35mm shooters have to be thinking about what they will do to separate themselves, in order to promote their business more. This is why the 5DMkII, and the A900 are drawing a lot of shooters. As soon as "mom" starts shooting a 5DMkII or A900, what is going to be the leverage for the wedding guy? (I know it is NOT that simple and obvious, but really, in places it is. I have already started to see wedding guys advertising that they shoot MF as part of their packages in order to promote a better portrait, or whatever.)

    That was really what I was getting at, and the growing ownership of more and better DSLRs will create that upper movement you mention. I have shot a number of events where folks are showing up with Canon 1-series, or Nikon D3 cameras, and these are just the "spectators" in the crowd. One guy was even bragging to me about "his is bigger than mine" on the MP side of things. That does NOT bother me, and I tried to politely dismiss his jabs by saying that I just use the right tool for the job, and a 25MP DSLR does not matter when you need 8-10fps for action in poor light. That sentiment on his part will not stop him and others from looking at the S2, or moreso having a lot of other pros look at the S2 to differentiate themselves and their products. That IS sort of what we are talking about at the heart of things in many ways. I just see the growing DSLR market creating more pressure to push some folks upward toward MF....it is with me in part, and the other part is that I do want the better IQ if I can get it for what I want to do. The S2 ain't gonna be seen shooting polo by me, but I would use it for the product shots....provided they can find any sponsors anymore in this economy

    On the rest of things, I think we are agreeing. And with respect to Hassy maybe dropping their prices on things like the H3DII-39 to fend off the S2.....not hard for me to take that path either

    LJ

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Now, a birdy told me something really big is coming from Hasselblad ... totally up there in the stratosphere, and is something no one is expecting in their wildest dreams.

    I'm trying to confirm, but that damned company is like Fort Knox when it come to info. If it's even close to true, the H3D-39 will become a semi-pro camera priced as an entry level kit.

    Holy-moly ... stay tuned.

    If you never hear from me again, black opps from Sweden took me out
    Looking forward to this

    Maybe it is a FF 6x6 Back and H like 6x6 body, just to redefin the square again. Given the current MP counts this sensor would then have approx. 80MP or so

    Anyway this would be a nice thing, but I could not afford it

    But it would make the H Series and their backs much cheaper

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Maybe it is a FF 6x6 Back and H like 6x6 body, just to redefin the square again. Given the current MP counts this sensor would then have approx. 80MP or so
    Hasselblad would have to re-release all their HC lenses with larger image circles to get this working, since the current ones cover 645 (and two don't even, the 28 and the latest zoom), so I consider this extremely unlikely. It would effectively mean an entirely new system.

    I consider it more likely that there will be a special on some particular camera/back combination, or a new high-end back, with price drops down the line.
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Now, a birdy told me something really big is coming from Hasselblad ... totally up there in the stratosphere, and is something no one is expecting in their wildest dreams.

    I'm trying to confirm, but that damned company is like Fort Knox when it come to info. If it's even close to true, the H3D-39 will become a semi-pro camera priced as an entry level kit.

    Holy-moly ... stay tuned.

    If you never hear from me again, black opps from Sweden took me out
    Great idea - during the worst banking crisis and economic downturn in a century, launch a super high-end product in to an already small MF market segment and watch while your company crashes and burns Still, if you price it high enough, perhaps you only have to sell the prototype to make some money...

    MF digital is a hothouse plant where the doors to cold reality have already been thrown open by high-end "35mm" dslrs. Perhaps if a new uber camera was priced the same as the current top end, with trickle down price cuts for the rest of the range, it might work; otherwise it makes no sense in this market.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Now, a birdy told me something really big is coming from Hasselblad ... totally up there in the stratosphere, and is something no one is expecting in their wildest dreams.
    What, an attractive H3DIII, maybe all-black?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Guys, guys,

    Six solid pages of [mainly] theoretical marketing and possible [and actual] technical issues/features. And only three images.

    Gear junkies, all of you.

    Um - and so am I - altho not in this direction. Waiting to get my feet wet - so to speak - in MFDB - but not S2. However, the cycling and re-cycling in the S2 threads is very entertaining.

    And there are some very interesting grains amongst the chaff - and chaffing.

    Enjoying this all - somewhat bemusedly.

    [We need a smiley eating dollar signs, I suggest, just to remind Guy when he gets too close to opening up his wallet to buy more gear].



    John

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    LOL Leica hopefully is not counting me. Unless business picks up not many Pro's will be jumping on it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    I 2nd the smiley chomping $$.

  11. #111
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Need to find one of those. Be nice to have around here
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Or how about a more complex derivative of Marc's idea - a smiley in plane (evil grin in place) dropping a napalm canister on a pile of money? Could be a flash banner across the top of the MF forum screen...

    Whenever a manufacturer comes out with new uber-kit, you could add that firm's logo to the side of the plane.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnH View Post
    Guys, guys,

    Six solid pages of [mainly] theoretical marketing and possible [and actual] technical issues/features. And only three images.

    Gear junkies, all of you.




    John
    John,
    So true, but there is also the "problem" that there are no images to be sharing from this new kit beyond what has already been published. It sure would be great discussing and comparing the output with other things, but nothing there. In that absence, we are left with creative speculation, and a heavy side-order of wishful desire, followed by a dessert of business bitters.

    One thing for sure, there is a lot of interest, both positive and skeptical over this new offering, and that is good for folks trying to think about direction, kit choices, etc. The more scenarios tossed out there from a good variety of folks, the less surprises many of us may see later.

    LJ

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    LOL but we are having fun and that is what counts. What is interesting and the part I like is the diverse opinions and thoughts. We all sit in different places in the world and i get great enjoyment with "just hanging out with the guys" ( famous phrase). ladies welcome of course . Just a old school phrase
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Guy - did you get a chance to use the S2 lenses with manual focus, if so how was the feel?

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    I have to Agree with Guy
    I really enjoy reading this forum.
    115 intelligent, mature, well written posts.
    Thank you all for the great conversation.
    am

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    I always learn from the vast experience of those who post in threads like this one. I appreciate the naysayers and doom predictors as much as the starry-eyed fanboys. Both sides shade in some details that combine to give a "whole" picture.

    Unfortunately, as far as the system itself goes, I haven't been able to glean much more than what I already knew from Photokina. No sample images, no word on price. My enthusiasm is beginning to wane. Due in part to the dismal economy. I think Leica made a very timely decision to develop this camera when the decision was originally made. Alas, very bad luck for them for it now to be introduced during a depression.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmb_ View Post
    Guy - did you get a chance to use the S2 lenses with manual focus, if so how was the feel?
    Great question . The manual focus is very nice and when using AF it gets you there and you can take over. Now the part I am still unsure of because the demo did not lend itself fully to what i wanted to do
    Was I wanted to turn off the AF and i did not see anything externally for that like a AF/M switch. Now maybe I missed something with that but I want that kind of control. I'm afraid but not sure it is a menu option and we need a better answer on this. I will see if I can figure that out but the throw was leica smooth and you can have different screens also. Maybe David can answer the manual focus only control or if someone remembers this part. Maybe the new function button could do this part.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by arashm View Post
    115 intelligent, mature, well written posts.
    Thank you all for the great conversation.
    am
    I completely agree with this post and while I have absolute no real interest in buying the S2 it does interest me from a technical standpoint. From a business standpoint I still think the R10 makes so much more sense provided you already have an established base of R system owners. Like many others I see the S2 more as a 35mm --> MF "bridge camera." I really don't see a reason they couldn't have positioned the R series into that "upmarket" role given the already higher market prices for Leica over competing Canons, Nikons, and other FF competitors. Just all my opinion though. Seems to be in the minds of some pros though as well to some extent who are at the very least concerned about changing systems to something that already has some obvious shortcomings - namely cost, no tethered options, and established service infrastructure. Those seem to be the recurring themes.

    I have learned more about it here then on the L forum. People tend to be more mature and more readily accept criticism (or at least concerns) of Leica products here. I found myself just closing the browser tab on the discussion over there. Anyway the product sounds interesting but barring a mega millions win... probably not in my personal future.
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    I'm even more curious about the 30-90 vario instead of the 24mm. It offers most focal lengthes but it's quite fast and tiny in comparison to the 35-90 from Fuji. I've handled it minutes after I visited the Leica booth at Photokina - it's huge, it doesn't cover 645, it doesn't work without digital correction, it's slow, it's heavy and costs 7k$...

    But maybe that's also the answer to the 24mm-distortion... Huge lenses with normal focal length a f5,6-f16 - you don't seriously expect major differences between a 6k$-Leica/Zeiss or 2k$-Mamiya/Fuji/Whatever... But more demanding situations (open aperture, corners of 645, extreme focal lengthes, varios) demand more sophisticated lens-designs/manufacturing-technologies. Or these lenses really will cost 10k$...

    Guy, I remember the DMR-bible - I'm sure Leica does that, too. You alone propably sold them >50 DMRs - they should give you a golden S2! Seriously :-) Mr. Kaufmann, do you listen?

    P.S.
    Was nothing said about the resolution of the display? Guy, you mentioned S-lenses with 72mm filter diameter, which lenses are those, I didn't notice at photokina!?

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Thanks for the nice comments , I am sure all the forum members appreciate this. I know I do. I started this over at LUf and just loaded with BS from my seat. No more i am done if they can't control the attitude and users I have no interest and frankly bottom line why Jack and I started this forum with a amazing attitude and the joy of photography in our members and I know that is why they are here. I am staying home. LOL
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    I'm even more curious about the 30-90 vario instead of the 24mm. It offers most focal lengthes but it's quite fast and tiny in comparison to the 35-90 from Fuji. I've handled it minutes after I visited the Leica booth at Photokina - it's huge, it doesn't cover 645, it doesn't work without digital correction, it's slow, it's heavy and costs 7k$...

    But maybe that's also the answer to the 24mm-distortion... Huge lenses with normal focal length a f5,6-f16 - you don't seriously expect major differences between a 6k$-Leica/Zeiss or 2k$-Mamiya/Fuji/Whatever... But more demanding situations (open aperture, corners of 645, extreme focal lengthes, varios) demand more sophisticated lens-designs/manufacturing-technologies. Or these lenses really will cost 10k$...

    Guy, I remember the DMR-bible - I'm sure Leica does that, too. You alone propably sold them >50 DMRs - they should give you a golden S2! Seriously :-) Mr. Kaufmann, do you listen?

    P.S.
    Was nothing said about the resolution of the display?
    The 30-90 is not going to be released on opening day but I agree it did look nice and fairly small. I honestly think and no one is going to say this but crazy old me, just because I am nuts enough to say it . LOL

    They have to be making these corrections in the DNG like they do today in the M8. Just from optical theory there is no way to make a retro focus design without some Distortion even a 35mm wide lens has some distortion. No way a 24 or even the 30-90 can be without some of this. Now i don't know optical design well enough to say the bigger the elements the less effect this may have . I would assume it does and makes sense. But I tend to think the lenses are calibrated at the factory like they say they are but that calibration gets read by the camera and the finishing corrections get applied to the DNG as it is written to the card. Hassy and Mamiya take a different approach and use there raw processing engines to make the needed corrections. So now Leica can say externally all the corrections are done and nothing externally needs to be done. little slight of hand there if you know what i mean. It is being done just to the DNG which i admit is maybe a better solution since you can go to any raw converter out there. Just like the cyan drift is corrected in a M8 with a IR filter and the camera set to ON/IR that data is being written to the raw file before it exits the camera. Same principle.

    Like Marc said a 24 1.4 new M lens for 6k and a Nocti for 10k. Even 33 percent less is still a fortune. Seriously I want to be proven wrong and on release I want to be flamed to all hell if I am wrong on the pricing I think these will be. I will even send the good Doctor a apology. First they need to prove us wrong though.

    Yes I have been a nice advocate for Leica and i do like them and there folks very much but I am also blunt, honest and when a smell a raw fish I will certainly be the first to tell folks. We need more data here on the S2 but they are thinking there own tethered program and no adapters for other lenses, 100 percent Leica premier dealers selling than they are starting to close in the walls and that makes me nervous. They need to make decisions based on user need and not trying to shut everything else out that is in place in the market that is also very well established in it as well.
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Folks,

    I also must say I really enjoy the discussion here with all of you! Much better and open than in the Leica Forum, where you cannot start an open honest discussion without being immediately bashed.

    Thank you all for that, I am learning a lot!

    As I am concentrating on fine art photography and large prints I am really interested in choosing the right MF digital solution. I am a Leica fan and still do a lot with my M8 and my M glass, but I learned the difference again between MF and 35mm while scanning my old 6x6 and 645 films with a Hasselblad Felxtight X5 - man what a machine

    And of course I also scanned some 35mm film, but what a difference! You can see what the larger format really brings, even if you compare to high resolution film and M lenses! All the Zeiss and Schneider Kreuznach glass I had and see now the result in my scans I only can say WOW!

    So one can expect the same or actually better from a digital MF back, but I would say for large prints like 44'' upwards one needs at least 39MP for high quality. So I am looking very carefully into the 39MP Hasselblad promo, but also the 50MP version, which currently is no promo but hopefully will get into that area, once the 60MP back is available and the S2 starts mixing up a bit the 39MP MF market.

    No particular interest from my side in the S System, because I see already the limitations I do not want to accept (I am talking about technical limitations only and not organizational ones). But the S2 will hopefully have a positive effect in lowering the MF back prices once more And this is why I like it and hope it makes it soon and successfully to the market

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    Was nothing said about the resolution of the display?
    Leica has said 460.000 pixels, but apparently they may still say pixels but mean dots. Either way, in the worst case it has about half the number of pixels of the latest high-res screens of Nikon, which is still very good. In the best case, it has a lot more, but that is somewhat doubtful.
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    It did look pretty darn good and we need to see more 3 inch LCD in the business

    Hope someone is listening , I am sure no one said this before either
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    How bright was it? Would it stand a chance in broad daylight?
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Actually, I am not convinced that they CAN'T make lenses that don't require optical corrections. I am sure the lenses will not be 100% perfect, but if you look at the current R line, most of the wide angles have distortion that is low enough not to be a concern in most situations -- barely over 2% in the 15mm and 19mm. If they can do it (or improve on it) in the R cameras, I don't see why they can't do it in medium format. Not only are they one of the best lens design firms, they also have the corporate will to go for pure optical performance at the expense of ease of manufacturing and lower materials cost. It's not necessarily that there is some magic dust that they use to make their lenses better, it's that they are more willing to make "highly strung" optical designs which demand very tight manufacturing tolerances. They can do this because they have low volumes and a partly hand-assembled production line where every lens is subjected to individual calibration and checks. Some of the other medium format manufacturers do this as well, but I think they have not really bothered to go all the way until recently given the more forgiving negative sizes. They are certainly capable of it (see the Zeiss super-achromats, the newest mamiya d lenses etc), but for the most part the conventional lenses were fine for film and lower MP digital. Leica is coming in all new, building on the no-compromise APO and ASPH M and R lenses, and it makes sense that they will take that no compromise approach to MFD. I just hope that the R&D from the M and R lenses is mostly paid off and that will help make the pricing of the S system lenses more reasonable. I am skeptical though...

    Anyway, sorry for the stream of consciousness there. I guess I just think that yes, they will be able to make lenses that do not require digital correction. I think other manufactures probably could too if they decided to adopt a similar manufacturing techniques.
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post

    Was nothing said about the resolution of the display? Guy, you mentioned S-lenses with 72mm filter diameter, which lenses are those, I didn't notice at photokina!?
    The LCD resolution is 320x480 (the same as an iPhone).

    The 180 APO has a 72mm filter diameter. I think that the 120 Macro also uses 72mm (not 100% positive).
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    John,
    So true, but there is also the "problem" that there are no images to be sharing from this new kit beyond what has already been published. It sure would be great discussing and comparing the output with other things, but nothing there. In that absence, we are left with creative speculation, and a heavy side-order of wishful desire, followed by a dessert of business bitters.

    One thing for sure, there is a lot of interest, both positive and skeptical over this new offering, and that is good for folks trying to think about direction, kit choices, etc. The more scenarios tossed out there from a good variety of folks, the less surprises many of us may see later.

    LJ
    LJ:

    I don't think Leica wants to be burnt twice. When the DMR was first available, somebody borrowed one and posted a bunch of pictures on the net that were not that great. A lot of the shots were taken with lenses that weren't even eica, and others were not focused well or had obvious camera shake. It was also early firmware and in the case of the DMR, in the matter of a month or two there was a new firmware version that improved image quality.

    It really wasn't until Guy got ahod of a DMR did people see the image quality it was capable of. Then the DMRs started selling like hot cakes.

    Robert

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    LJ:

    I don't think Leica wants to be burnt twice. When the DMR was first available, somebody borrowed one and posted a bunch of pictures on the net that were not that great. A lot of the shots were taken with lenses that weren't even eica, and others were not focused well or had obvious camera shake. It was also early firmware and in the case of the DMR, in the matter of a month or two there was a new firmware version that improved image quality.

    It really wasn't until Guy got ahod of a DMR did people see the image quality it was capable of. Then the DMRs started selling like hot cakes.

    Robert
    Robert,
    Completely understand that part and am not really faulting Leica for protecting things. However, at this stage, one would expect that they could be shooting some things that they control and release as totally preliminary, just as the one fashion shoot they put on line. Why not have a few big prints from that shoot on display at the booth, even if not posted larger on line? Why not do a few shots and crops of things that they can control and release for folks to at least get some idea of what may come and may be better?

    If I were Leica, I would not want random shots floating around, as you mentioned, but I sure would think about starting to put out some images that can start to be compared to what Leica is perceiving as the competition. Does not have to be final, and could come with all sort of caveats and embedded labels, but they should be controlling that and tamping down some of the speculations and stuff, if they can. Just my interest and thoughts on this.

    LJ

    P.S. How hard would it have been to set up one body to shoot tethered to one of their computers so folks in these special presentation groups could get some feel for things beyond the LCD? No files getting into the wild. They control the camera and lens, but let the shooters at least get a look at stuff so that folks like Guy and others can scrutinize things the way we look at them and offer suggestions as well as any praise.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Great question . The manual focus is very nice and when using AF it gets you there and you can take over. Now the part I am still unsure of because the demo did not lend itself fully to what i wanted to do
    Was I wanted to turn off the AF and i did not see anything externally for that like a AF/M switch. Now maybe I missed something with that but I want that kind of control. I'm afraid but not sure it is a menu option and we need a better answer on this. I will see if I can figure that out but the throw was leica smooth and you can have different screens also. Maybe David can answer the manual focus only control or if someone remembers this part. Maybe the new function button could do this part.
    With the new AF function button, you'll be able to set it to AF-activate and deactivate focus on the shutter release. So, if you want to manually focus, just manually focus and don't use the AF button. If you want to switch to AF, use the button. Simple as that.
    David Farkas
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    How's a $11K or 12K H3D-II/31 sound?
    Further thoughts. If Hasselblad did introduce a $11 or $12K H3D-11/31 I'd buy into the system tomorrow, and that's a promise! I'm also sure that I wouldn't be alone. Are you listening Hasselblad?

    Unfortunately, and if the 22MP is anything to go by, they are more likely to simply drop the entry level kit and replace it with the next in line.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    I think David Grover just may see this. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Further thoughts. If Hasselblad did introduce a $11 or $12K H3D-11/31 I'd buy into the system tomorrow, and that's a promise! I'm also sure that I wouldn't be alone. Are you listening Hasselblad?

    Unfortunately, and if the 22MP is anything to go by, they are more likely to simply drop the entry level kit and replace it with the next in line.
    Kodak discontinued the 22 meg sensor, not Hasselblad.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Kodak discontinued the 22 meg sensor, not Hasselblad.
    Whatever, my offer stands

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Further thoughts. If Hasselblad did introduce a $11 or $12K H3D-11/31 I'd buy into the system tomorrow, and that's a promise! I'm also sure that I wouldn't be alone. Are you listening Hasselblad?

    Unfortunately, and if the 22MP is anything to go by, they are more likely to simply drop the entry level kit and replace it with the next in line.
    Hasselblad might take a little while but that doesn't stop Adorama from clearing their shelves:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=270353606201

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Wait till the S2 hits the street (or say the shelves of the dealers).

    Then you will see real reactions from Hasselblad - I bet!

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Further thoughts. If Hasselblad did introduce a $11 or $12K H3D-11/31 I'd buy into the system tomorrow, and that's a promise! I'm also sure that I wouldn't be alone. Are you listening Hasselblad?

    Unfortunately, and if the 22MP is anything to go by, they are more likely to simply drop the entry level kit and replace it with the next in line.
    Somebody say something? :sleep006:

    The H3D31 has already had big price drops and anything lower would put Hasselblad back to the old days of making a loss on every camera!

    But who knows what the future brings.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post

    But who knows what the future brings.
    David

    Here is my wish for the future . KODAK or DALSA should finally bring a square sensor like 48x48 or 56x56 . I would (try to) be the first who places an order for a HASSELBLAD DIGITAL BACK with such a sensor which can be adapted to the V-SYSTEM .

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    I would like to see a square sensor 56 x 56 and a new system - however they call this, but with the standards of the H System. Even if that would be VERY expensive, I would buy it!

    Maybe this will be the future. If I look into my old analog 6x6 material I am really missing the square format!

    Hasselblad please listen

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    "[M]aking a loss on every camera?"

    But you could make up for it in volume.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    "[M]aking a loss on every camera?"

    But you could make up for it in volume.
    It will be only a loss for the moment, but an investment in the future. Win customers for the H System and sell them new lenses and new backs over many years to come

    And kill competition - like Leica S2?

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    I am not sure about such a strategy. Recall that Leica is much larger than the others in the MF field. If Hasselblad hurts itself with too low prices, then due to its size and solid backing, Leica would be able to pull through, but Hasselblad may not. I think the best strategy is to try to differentiate the products. If the Leica S2 is really better for some uses, then emphasize the rest, and try not to lose too much ground. In the end the market will be much better off with this kind of strategy, and the companies will be healthier. Dirty fighting leads to bloody noses, and the instigator doesn't always come away unscathed. Besides, Hasselblad has already pulled two fast ones (killing off the V, going closed between H2 and H3D), and shouldn't play too much with fire, lest their customers finally abandon ship.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    but with the standards of the H System
    Hasselblad please listen
    Peter
    I would not mind H standards , although I am not a friend of AF .
    I found the CZ lenses extremely good for digital and believe , that HC lenses are not any better , even if HASSELBLAD wants to make us believe that .
    The 4.5x6 format has never been attractive for me , and I do believe , that it was a big mistake from HASSELBLAD , to go for that format with the H1 , instead of develeoping the V-SYSTEM .
    Now , as the facts are pinned down to 4.5x6 , all I would like to have , is a good square format digi back , bigger than my CFV . HASSELBLAD does not seem to be willing to go into that direction .
    I use to say , other mothers also have nice daughters .
    In other words , if HASSELBLAD does not do it , others might , and I will give them a great welcome . I am thinking mainly of LEAF .

    Jürgen

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    Peter
    I would not mind H standards , although I am not a friend of AF .
    I found the CZ lenses extremely good for digital and believe , that HC lenses are not any better , even if HASSELBLAD wants to make us believe that .
    The 4.5x6 format has never been attractive for me , and I do believe , that it was a big mistake from HASSELBLAD , to go for that format with the H1 , instead of develeoping the V-SYSTEM .
    Now , as the facts are pinned down to 4.5x6 , all I would like to have , is a good square format digi back , bigger than my CFV . HASSELBLAD does not seem to be willing to go into that direction .
    I use to say , other mothers also have nice daughters .
    In other words , if HASSELBLAD does not do it , others might , and I will give them a great welcome . I am thinking mainly of LEAF .

    Jürgen
    I would be also a buyer into that. Because I actually do not need a fast MF system but a very exactly working and good one. As I am mainly in landscapes and flowers etc.

    So I found a square format as best suited for my needs and actually my best photos I could accomplish in square format. Somehow square inspires me to think and work on the perfection of a photo, while 4:3 or 3:2 or whatever brings me in most cases only "me too" results.

    So I would really jump on such a back - or better system, which brings some relief for daily work like slow but accurate AF etc ..... also if it is not Hasselblad.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    +1
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    As much as I'd love that large square sensor, I'm a mere photographer, supplying clients - rather ironically including Hasselblad - with files and prints, and wouldn't stand a hope in hell of being able to afford it.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Keith, if it was 56x56mm, I probably wouldn't either. But I think that 48x48mm is close enough at this point, and if the resolution was kept low, perhaps around 30MP, it might be feasible. I am shocked that with all the great old 6x6 cameras around, no one has dared make anything larger than 36x36mm yet.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I am not sure about such a strategy. Recall that Leica is much larger than the others in the MF field. If Hasselblad hurts itself with too low prices, then due to its size and solid backing, Leica would be able to pull through, but Hasselblad may not. I think the best strategy is to try to differentiate the products. If the Leica S2 is really better for some uses, then emphasize the rest, and try not to lose too much ground. In the end the market will be much better off with this kind of strategy, and the companies will be healthier. Dirty fighting leads to bloody noses, and the instigator doesn't always come away unscathed. Besides, Hasselblad has already pulled two fast ones (killing off the V, going closed between H2 and H3D), and shouldn't play too much with fire, lest their customers finally abandon ship.
    Why would we "abandon ship"? Only non-Hasselbald customers say stuff like that. The people that were pissed about the H3D weren't customers using their digital backs ... for the most part, they were H1 & H2 users with Phase One or some other back. I much prefer what they ARE doing for their real digital camera customers ... innovation to solve real world job requirements and making the H system more and more useful.

    Abandoned the V system. Who cares? Not one single local re-seller I know was stocking that gear any more, and "fire-sale" what they did have. Plus, I don't know one anyone that was buying V gear new ... except the 503/CFV & CFV-II and bundled 40IF ... which is still available BTW. Why would they keep making gear no one is buying new? There is more mint V gear for sale used than anyone could possibly need ... at prices that are a fraction of new ... and EVERYONE knows that ... except apparently non-user critics.

    That said, there are a ton of legacy V users that would love a bigger square sensor. However, I seriously doubt it would be a barn burner in terms of sales unless by some miracle it was a CFV-II 48X48 priced below $15K. If it's such a hot prospect, why doesn't one of the other digital back makers jump on it? The V will take any back. Where is the Phase One or Leaf 48X48 that could be used on all the V, RZ/RB and Rollei cameras out there?

    Also, why wouldn't any company blunt the intro of a potential competitor by using a entry level pricing strategy? That strategy doesn't produce a bloody nose, it produces sales into your system rather than the competitor's. When Hasselblad dropped the price of the H3D-II/31 the cameras flew out of inventory... and a bunch of new customers for ancillary gear came on-line. I doubt they are losing money with such moves. If the recent price drops by other makers is any indication, there is some pretty hefty margins built into this kind of gear.

    I think we will see a $12 or 13K H3D-II/31 ... and then well see what happens.
    Last edited by fotografz; 11th March 2009 at 01:10.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    If the recent price drops by other makers is any indication, there is some pretty hefty margins built into this kind of gear.
    That is very true. The margins are pretty hefty and they are more so when the manufacturer is also the national distributor.

    Has anyone noticed that Hasselblad has appointed as executive chairman, the former Carl Zeiss Asia-Pacific CEO, Dr. Larry Hansen? My gut feel suggests that Hasselblad may be working with Carl Zeiss again for its H-system.

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