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S2 and my impressions.
- Thread starter Guy Mancuso
- Start date
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
No No No. This one i am sitting out until it is out and running than we will see. LOL
Just don't light that fuse yet
Just don't light that fuse yet
jonoslack
Active member
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Some more thoughts i was saving but maybe a good time to talk about this. If you look up the definition of DSLR than you will realize this is exactly what the S2 is but with a fur coat on it. let me explain this , It is basically a D3x only with a lot more punch to it. Again just using the D3x for examples. If you are a DSLR shooter than going to a S2 will give you the same style of shooting and actually no different it is exactly the same in many many ways. Now the S2 has some big advantages over the DSLR out there first off nothing will touch it with image quality. You can argue this one forever but the fact is nothing in a DSLR package will match it and I will explain this. but first this is a Leica built camera so the build quality is outstanding with weather sealing , great optics and extremely fast on all counts but slower at FPS which stands to reason punching 37 mpx through a pipeline is much harder than 24 mpx. That is a given. Now i won't go into every detail that David has already covered and actually trying to write this different than he has written the blog with more tech details. He knows them much better than I do.
But I like to give the down and dirty common sense stuff. Now we all know and this battle has going on forever the bigger the better usually wins the battle in photography. Film , Digital there is no difference size matters. The S2 is a 37 mpx sensor that is obviously bigger than 35mm Full Frame and this sensor is very very close to Kodaks Sensor in the Phase P30 plus and Hassy H3 31 and several others that use this sensor . It is 6.8 microns and the S2 is 6 . Now I am going to use Phase as a example because i have shot and tested every back they own and I know the differences very well between them and given this S2 sensor and micron size this will be equal to or better than the P30 plus back , It is smaller but it does pack more MPX in the 6 micron and i tend to think this will be very equal to each other and plus or minus too. The P30 plus is a great back and not much can touch it but it does have micro lenses like the S2 does so they are pretty close to being on equal footing here. The bigger backs like the P45 plus/Hassy 39 backs are all 39mpx 6.8 micron backs and extremely good with amazing detail in them . Than the P65 plus and Hassy 50 are much bigger backs and pack a wallop of detail. The point here is the S2 will compare very well with there cousins in the MF market with 12 stops of DR and 14 bit ad converter to 16 bit. Frankly this maybe the least area of concern for me . I know the S2 will perform really well and I also know it will kill and 35mm DSLR out there in the image dept.. But for the Nikon /Canon guy out there wanting more mojo in there files than the S2 will be the answer to that and it will compare very well to it's MF cousins in around the same range of sensor and size even though it is smaller it will still be on those levels. What is not is a MF back that is different by definition and we have to look at that like I was mentioning it earlier. Bottom line you want the absolute most detail that is possible the S2 is not it. The P65 or Hassy 50 with a tech camera bolting on some tech lenses is the answer but it will compare well with the lessor backs than these monsters. We have to remember the intended purpose of the S2 and what it is aimed at and that is Fashion, weddings , PR to some degree and to get the best image you can from a DSLR which by definition is a Digital Single lens Reflex and exactly how I see this camera. It will pretty much bury anything in a DSLR arena and compare to the MF cousins in it's range.
But I like to give the down and dirty common sense stuff. Now we all know and this battle has going on forever the bigger the better usually wins the battle in photography. Film , Digital there is no difference size matters. The S2 is a 37 mpx sensor that is obviously bigger than 35mm Full Frame and this sensor is very very close to Kodaks Sensor in the Phase P30 plus and Hassy H3 31 and several others that use this sensor . It is 6.8 microns and the S2 is 6 . Now I am going to use Phase as a example because i have shot and tested every back they own and I know the differences very well between them and given this S2 sensor and micron size this will be equal to or better than the P30 plus back , It is smaller but it does pack more MPX in the 6 micron and i tend to think this will be very equal to each other and plus or minus too. The P30 plus is a great back and not much can touch it but it does have micro lenses like the S2 does so they are pretty close to being on equal footing here. The bigger backs like the P45 plus/Hassy 39 backs are all 39mpx 6.8 micron backs and extremely good with amazing detail in them . Than the P65 plus and Hassy 50 are much bigger backs and pack a wallop of detail. The point here is the S2 will compare very well with there cousins in the MF market with 12 stops of DR and 14 bit ad converter to 16 bit. Frankly this maybe the least area of concern for me . I know the S2 will perform really well and I also know it will kill and 35mm DSLR out there in the image dept.. But for the Nikon /Canon guy out there wanting more mojo in there files than the S2 will be the answer to that and it will compare very well to it's MF cousins in around the same range of sensor and size even though it is smaller it will still be on those levels. What is not is a MF back that is different by definition and we have to look at that like I was mentioning it earlier. Bottom line you want the absolute most detail that is possible the S2 is not it. The P65 or Hassy 50 with a tech camera bolting on some tech lenses is the answer but it will compare well with the lessor backs than these monsters. We have to remember the intended purpose of the S2 and what it is aimed at and that is Fashion, weddings , PR to some degree and to get the best image you can from a DSLR which by definition is a Digital Single lens Reflex and exactly how I see this camera. It will pretty much bury anything in a DSLR arena and compare to the MF cousins in it's range.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Okay off for some rest. Beat up
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Wait one more comment. I am still worried how they will price this . I will mostly likely say this again too. This right now is a BIG issue given what is going on in the world and the work that seems to be sliding away for many folks of all walks of life.
Guy, I think that the S2 IQ will not just equal/beat the P30+, but also the P45+. The P65 is a different story....
The P45+ at 39MP and the S2 at 37.5MP are pretty much a dead heat. Yes, the P45+ sensor is 36x48mm and the S2 is 30x45mm. So the larger sensor has only a 28% larger area than the S2. Remember that the 6um sensor tech in the S2 is the same latest generation that is now going into the H3DII/50/60 and P65+. The CCD in the P45+, while excellent, is now 4 or 5 year-old technology.
The S2 uses microlenses which are offset as they get towards the edge of the frame (just like the DMR and M8). This is unique to Leica, AFIK and really helps with the performance of wide angle lenses. It also should help improve high ISO performance, along with the Maestro image processor.
The lenses will be second-to-none, performance-wise. These are optics that can be shot wide-open with little-to-no-sacrifice in quality. Such can not be said of most existing MF lenses, which require stopping down to get to where they need to be. There are, of course, exceptions. But, the Leica S lineup is without flaw. Every single lens is reference-class. If you have a 60 MP back and a not-so-good lens mounted on the front, what is the quality of those pixels? How many here have ever mounted a Leica R lens on a 1DsII/III? Most Canon lenses are not up to the task of resolving 21MP, yet a 30-year old R lens handles it with ease. I would expect the same to happen in MF-land, except the S lenses take the performance of R and M lenses to a whole new level.
Along those same lines, the S2 is the only camera system that I know of that takes the optical characteristics of the CCD IR cover glass into account when designing the lenses. Insane.
There is also no play whatsoever in the lens mount or sensor. When dealing at these levels of detail, any weakness in the imaging chain will result in a loss of potential performance. Certain MF cameras are notorious for wiggly lenses. The tolerances are just too tight to have slop.
So, yeah, I think that the S2, despite a slightly smaller sensor than the P45, will, from a system perspective, beat the P45+/H3DII-39 on several counts of IQ: high ISO performance, dynamic range, per-pixel detail, overall sharpness, micro-contrast, bokeh, and "feel." Not to mention lens specific strengths like lack of CA, vignetting, distortion, field curvature, coma, flare, and ghosting, as well as being able to shoot wide-open and still maintain good contrast and corner sharpness. And just to be 100% clear about this, Leica will not be making S-series lenses available in any mount other than for the S2 (and the future R10 with an electronically coupled adapter). No Leica glass for Mamiya. Sorry.
David
The P45+ at 39MP and the S2 at 37.5MP are pretty much a dead heat. Yes, the P45+ sensor is 36x48mm and the S2 is 30x45mm. So the larger sensor has only a 28% larger area than the S2. Remember that the 6um sensor tech in the S2 is the same latest generation that is now going into the H3DII/50/60 and P65+. The CCD in the P45+, while excellent, is now 4 or 5 year-old technology.
The S2 uses microlenses which are offset as they get towards the edge of the frame (just like the DMR and M8). This is unique to Leica, AFIK and really helps with the performance of wide angle lenses. It also should help improve high ISO performance, along with the Maestro image processor.
The lenses will be second-to-none, performance-wise. These are optics that can be shot wide-open with little-to-no-sacrifice in quality. Such can not be said of most existing MF lenses, which require stopping down to get to where they need to be. There are, of course, exceptions. But, the Leica S lineup is without flaw. Every single lens is reference-class. If you have a 60 MP back and a not-so-good lens mounted on the front, what is the quality of those pixels? How many here have ever mounted a Leica R lens on a 1DsII/III? Most Canon lenses are not up to the task of resolving 21MP, yet a 30-year old R lens handles it with ease. I would expect the same to happen in MF-land, except the S lenses take the performance of R and M lenses to a whole new level.
Along those same lines, the S2 is the only camera system that I know of that takes the optical characteristics of the CCD IR cover glass into account when designing the lenses. Insane.
There is also no play whatsoever in the lens mount or sensor. When dealing at these levels of detail, any weakness in the imaging chain will result in a loss of potential performance. Certain MF cameras are notorious for wiggly lenses. The tolerances are just too tight to have slop.
So, yeah, I think that the S2, despite a slightly smaller sensor than the P45, will, from a system perspective, beat the P45+/H3DII-39 on several counts of IQ: high ISO performance, dynamic range, per-pixel detail, overall sharpness, micro-contrast, bokeh, and "feel." Not to mention lens specific strengths like lack of CA, vignetting, distortion, field curvature, coma, flare, and ghosting, as well as being able to shoot wide-open and still maintain good contrast and corner sharpness. And just to be 100% clear about this, Leica will not be making S-series lenses available in any mount other than for the S2 (and the future R10 with an electronically coupled adapter). No Leica glass for Mamiya. Sorry.
David
Guy,
we all know that YOU will get one!
No point in hanging on to the Phase/Mam stuff.
However you will need to sell the wife and the house.
If you think the Hy6 with it's lenses was pricey ,well be afraid.
I would get one if the S2 had 3 TS lenses right now,however by the time they will have the first one,I'll be retired.
Mind you,I'm 58 and I told my wife,I would shoot till 64(LOL)
Anyway,I think the S2 looks great,but after coming from MFDB and now using a D3x,
I couldn't be more happy.
It gets the job done,and quickly!
Cheers,
Willem.
we all know that YOU will get one!
No point in hanging on to the Phase/Mam stuff.
However you will need to sell the wife and the house.
If you think the Hy6 with it's lenses was pricey ,well be afraid.
I would get one if the S2 had 3 TS lenses right now,however by the time they will have the first one,I'll be retired.
Mind you,I'm 58 and I told my wife,I would shoot till 64(LOL)
Anyway,I think the S2 looks great,but after coming from MFDB and now using a D3x,
I couldn't be more happy.
It gets the job done,and quickly!
Cheers,
Willem.
Mark,
The last part of my post above:
And just to be 100% clear about this, Leica will not be making S-series lenses available in any mount other than for the S2 (and the future R10 with an electronically coupled adapter). No Leica glass for Mamiya. Sorry.
The PhaseOne camera is a rebranded Mamiya 645AFDIII. Leica never actually announced lenses for Mamiya mount at Photokina. The rumor was spread by P1 dealers and wishful users.
And as you probably read in my blog, all sales, marketing, service, and support will be handled exclusively by Leica and Leica dealers. So, no Phase here either.
Phase One, along with Hasselblad, represent the major competition for the S2. To this end, the nature of the Phase-Leica relationship is uncertain. Leica is certainly one of the largest distributors of C1 right now. Every M8, M8.2 and D-Lux 4 come with C1 bundled. I'm assuming that Leica pays Phase a volume license for this software. If we imagine that there are about 30K M8s and about 40K D-Lux 4s currently sold, even at a steep discount, Phase is making a fair amount of cash for work already done with no material cost. Will the software licensing revenue be enough to offset any loss in MFDB business by them supporting the Leica S2? I think this analysis, more than anything, will determine if the S2 will be supported in C1 or not.
David
David wrote,
"Will the software licensing revenue be enough to offset any loss in MFDB business by them supporting the Leica S2? I think this analysis, more than anything, will determine if the S2 will be supported in C1 or not."
Thanks for the clarification on my original point,David.
Makes sense and is the answer I would have assumed Leica would make.
Whether software licensing revenues are a factor Phase would consider,
it is my opinion that they most probably would not directly support the S2
for much the same reason that Leica wouldn't supply lenses-the S2 and
Phase backs are directly competitive products and wouldn't really be in
Phase's interest to make life easy for Leica
Mark
"Will the software licensing revenue be enough to offset any loss in MFDB business by them supporting the Leica S2? I think this analysis, more than anything, will determine if the S2 will be supported in C1 or not."
Thanks for the clarification on my original point,David.
Makes sense and is the answer I would have assumed Leica would make.
Whether software licensing revenues are a factor Phase would consider,
it is my opinion that they most probably would not directly support the S2
for much the same reason that Leica wouldn't supply lenses-the S2 and
Phase backs are directly competitive products and wouldn't really be in
Phase's interest to make life easy for Leica
Mark
PeterA
Well-known member
David - thanks for your posts and also clarifying the fact that Leica isn't going to be making Leica lenses for Phase (or anyone else)- Hooray for Leica's thinking here. I think your enthusiasm is wonderful - and as a fellow Leica nut - I really look forward to the S2 and hopefully its success.
Now for some points in response.
1. You did spend some time pointing out that Leica lenses won't need digital software corrections of bad lens design - ala the HC28. WHEN Leica bring out a 28 I look forward to seeing how well it performs.
2. Regarding not corrected wides - I will be comparing Leica to Schneider and Rodenstock in 35 for Schneider and 23 and 28 for Rodenstock to see who actually makes the top of the tree glass. Don't fret I already KNOW the answer BEFORE Leica have even thought about making wides for the S2.
3. Also as far as wide open shooting goes - I am perfectly happy with the the performance of the Zeiss 110/2 in both FE and Rollie mounts and do yourelf a favou and try out teh HC 110/2 it is no slouch either. Again I look forward to Leica making a nicer lens - although I note that Leica - even with brand new lens formulations and a ( lets be frank here) dicky small format chip size ( and cetainly not a 6x6 film square ) - will be delivering a 2.5 spec set of lenses. Pretty ordinary I think.
4. Long glass? When Leica deliver a 350 or a 250 that can compare to the Zeiss formulations ( I am sure you know which lenses I am talking about) I will take notice here as well. Again though they will have designed for a weeny sized chip - and we troglodytes can say ( again) ha!
5. Whilst many might think technical camera capability is a moot point for all except minority of shooters - I do care. Alpa and soon to arive P3 and Artec thank you - please give me a break these ools do stuff that Leica 'magic' doesn't.
6. Finally - I know it doesn't matter to digi only shooters - but I LIKE being able to use film on my camera systems. Leica would do well to consider making a film body version of the S2 for the owners of the S2 lenses who are eccentric enough to like shooting film on occasion - hey WAIT a Minute!! exactly what format film would that be?? :ROTFL:
So from a prospective owner - WHEN Leica actually deliver something that can compete in the focal lengths of existing makers then I will get interested. Sounds to me that this full portfolio is going to take a few years to happen.
In the meantime I will just have to put up with second class crap from Zeiss Hasselblad Schneider and Rodenstock on a range of systems each designed to deliver the right tool for the right job.
Kind regards
Pete
Now for some points in response.
1. You did spend some time pointing out that Leica lenses won't need digital software corrections of bad lens design - ala the HC28. WHEN Leica bring out a 28 I look forward to seeing how well it performs.
2. Regarding not corrected wides - I will be comparing Leica to Schneider and Rodenstock in 35 for Schneider and 23 and 28 for Rodenstock to see who actually makes the top of the tree glass. Don't fret I already KNOW the answer BEFORE Leica have even thought about making wides for the S2.
3. Also as far as wide open shooting goes - I am perfectly happy with the the performance of the Zeiss 110/2 in both FE and Rollie mounts and do yourelf a favou and try out teh HC 110/2 it is no slouch either. Again I look forward to Leica making a nicer lens - although I note that Leica - even with brand new lens formulations and a ( lets be frank here) dicky small format chip size ( and cetainly not a 6x6 film square ) - will be delivering a 2.5 spec set of lenses. Pretty ordinary I think.
4. Long glass? When Leica deliver a 350 or a 250 that can compare to the Zeiss formulations ( I am sure you know which lenses I am talking about) I will take notice here as well. Again though they will have designed for a weeny sized chip - and we troglodytes can say ( again) ha!
5. Whilst many might think technical camera capability is a moot point for all except minority of shooters - I do care. Alpa and soon to arive P3 and Artec thank you - please give me a break these ools do stuff that Leica 'magic' doesn't.
6. Finally - I know it doesn't matter to digi only shooters - but I LIKE being able to use film on my camera systems. Leica would do well to consider making a film body version of the S2 for the owners of the S2 lenses who are eccentric enough to like shooting film on occasion - hey WAIT a Minute!! exactly what format film would that be?? :ROTFL:
So from a prospective owner - WHEN Leica actually deliver something that can compete in the focal lengths of existing makers then I will get interested. Sounds to me that this full portfolio is going to take a few years to happen.
In the meantime I will just have to put up with second class crap from Zeiss Hasselblad Schneider and Rodenstock on a range of systems each designed to deliver the right tool for the right job.
Kind regards
Pete
David Klepacki
New member
IQ entails many things. Put a P45+ behind a Cambo or an Alpa Max with Rodenstock or Schneider lenses, and please tell me how an S2 could possibly compare, as it will not be able to correct for perspective.
Dead heat?? What about aspect ratio? Some photographers do not like the 3x2 format, and prefer 4x3. Also, the printing industry is still geared towards the 4x5 format, so more pixels would need to be cropped from an S2 than from a P45+.
What? If the microlenses were offset specifically to address wide angle lenses, then the sensor performance would suck for normal and telephoto lenses.
Second to none? Not one of the S2 lenses can be shot at F2, whereas the Hasselblad FE 110mm lens can, so how could Leica not be second in that regard? Also, Leica has not achieved superachromat lens designs, which Zeiss has done for Hasselblad. Again, Leica would appear to be second in this regard as well. And, if these S2 lenses were indeed without any flaw, they would be totally unaffordable to most people. There is no magic here, just engineering and economic trade offs. The S2 lenses are most likely excellent, but without any flaw? Not realistic.
This is not the case. The Sinaron digital lenses from Sinar also take the IR glass into account, and I believe the Rodenstock HR lens lines do as well.
I am sure Leica will do a fine job to bring a high quality camera to market, and there will be people who will enjoy using it. However, this whole notion of "beating" another camera/back is silly. As I tried to point out, there are a whole host of shots and situations that the S2 will not even be able to deal with. And, their lenses will deliver the performance commensurate with their cost, otherwise, there would not be enough profit for them to sustain their business. In this economy, I think photographers will be careful in their spending, and will do whatever they can to influence lower prices....and hope they do not push Leica over the edge into insolvency or termination of the camera line, like we have seen for Contax and even the Leica R and S1 cameras.
ptomsu
Workshop Member
David,
interesting writing! Similar from Guy!
Issue is, the S2 can be compared in best case to 39MP or 45MP backs, but NOT to 50MP and 60MP or even larger MP count backs. But this will be the future for high end MF DSLRs. And I count a H3D2 also as a DSLR, although with a different form factor than 35mm DSLRs of course
My point is - I feel the S System, with all its advantages and expected quality - is just a niche system. Wether this niche will become mainstream is to be doubted, it might happen, but I personally am not so sure. Most Pros are using a kind of MF System like the H System, they have invested in their gear heavily and they have great experience how to deal with that systems day in and out in every situation. And the likes as Hasselblad are going to bring further programs supporting Pros even better I am sure. Where is Leica in that arena? Where will they be in a year from now? How would I rely my business and work tools on a company which has proven this inconsistency over the past years or even decades and huge lack of innovation? You can argue that hey show a lot of innovation right now - true - but will this continue? Leica history tells unfortunately, that this were always some short highlights unfortunately.
Answering those questions clearly shows, that Leica is moving on very thin ice! Maybe they have found the right thing for the "big" mass, but I am not so sure. I rather prefer 35mm FF DSLR and MF like the H system. One which is clearly faster, more feature rich and has much more options than the S system will ever have and the other end being clearly superior in resolution and also final image quality if you take the H system as one example with 50MP back upwards.
ptomsu
Workshop Member
Hi Pete,
just read your lines right now - I COULD NOT AGREE MORE!
There is so much enthusiasm in a lot of postings here for the S System. And all the existing MF systems seem to be bull**** in that light. I only can say I have great experience with from the analog MF times and scanning with a Hasselblad Fleight X5, I know what the even "old" analog designs bring:
Haselblad SWC
Schneider Kreuznach designs for Rollei
Zeiss designs for Hasselblad
But if it comes to the H System, this clearly outperforms even the great analog top designs.
Where will Leica be in that area? And if they are on par with their competitors, where will they be compared to a H3D2 with 50MP or 60MP backs?
I think that people here are starting to mix up enthusiasm and love for Leica (which I share BTW as an old Leica user) with reality in physics, market and business. And this mixture is deadly!
carstenw
Active member
Well, they are bringing out a 24mm lens this year, not a 28mm. The end result will be about the same due to the slightly smaller sensor, so we will see how good it is.
Not quite. f2.5 is faster than everything ever made in MF land except the 110/2, the Contax 80/2 and the Mamiya 80/1.7, AFAIK. Not exactly ordinary. And the f2.5 lenses include a 35mm, a 70mm and a 120mm Macro. The 35 and the 120 will be breaking new ground in that respect. The 24mm lens is f2.8, another first. The Hasselblad and Mamiyas are f/4, and at least the Mamiya needs to be stopped down *significantly* before it becomes sharp, f8 from some accounts.
The only thing missing here is a fast portrait lens. The spec of the 100mm lens is not final, but maybe that will be it. A 100mm f2 would be a nice cherry on top.
Here is a thread I started once discussing the S2 lens lineup:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-s2-forum/64956-something-rotten-s2-lens-lineup.html
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ptomsu
Workshop Member
Man, do your homework
The Hasselblad 2.2/100
http://www.hasselblad.se/products/h-system/lenses/hc-22100.aspx
is obviously faster than 2.5 - or am I wrong ??????