S2 and my impressions.

[robmac]

Jono - always the gentleman ;>

I agree on the NEED for denser sensors. At say 12-17MP there are more than enough MPs for 90% of DSLRs users to ever need - especially with the ongoing state of uprezzing software. Not to mention the current sad (but improving with N and S) state of affair re: glass for these sensors.

I'll let pro MFDB shooters comment of what is realistically required for the fashion/double-spread, etc industry.

C, N or S would be far better off getting rid of the #$%^&* AA filters to get the per pixel IQ up vs. firing up the sensors fabs every upgrade season. A D4/800, D4x, 1DS4, Sony A990 hist the market with 12-24MP but no AA filter or an AA filter in name only and me, and a lot of other folks will be in hog heaven - and avoiding moving to MF.

Using R, ZF, ZE, CV or MF glass via adapters aside; if the Sony/Zeiss relationship flourishes, Nikon continues it's lens revamp and Canon eventually gets off it's *** glass-wise, that higher per-pixel IQ would translate into vastly better enlargements if needed. In your case. Imagine a A990 with say D3x ISO quality, no AA filter and an expanded range of Zeiss glass....

That said, what makes logical sense isn't, in this case, what people, in both the DSLR and MFDB markets want and will obviously pay very dear for. Some % of shooters could always use more, especially with T&S gear or tech frames, but they aren't the 'norm'.

 

[georgl]

"Of course, I always forget about that. What is the MTF like compared to the 110/2? What about the lens in general?"

I just compared them, they're equally bad, even their lens design looks quite similiar - but the Planar was introduced 25 years earlier...

I don't know the Fuji very well, but the Planar felt a little bit like the Noctilux with a "dreamy", soft and low-contrast look wide open. I barely know a MF-lens which us fully usable on 39MP-back below f4...

That's the point, most MF-lenses (except for HR/Digitars) are not very innovative designs. Most of them are good not too far in the corners, stopped down - basically the technological point we already reached over 25 years ago...

Leica changed that game: innovative, highly-complex designs which are tremendously difficult to manufacture (they share technologies that were needed for the new ultra-fast M-lenses) and therefore cannot be copied easily...

I don't know exactly how the IQ-results will look like in comparison to the larger 50/60MP-sensors, but when I compare it with the experience of Leica DMR/M8 (smaller, lower resolution sensors + superior lenses) the bigger files will not be necessarily better - not under real world conditions (not test-charts in the image center at optimum aperture in a studio)...

The coming 645-backs (like the P65+) will have a market especially for technical cameras - but that wasn't the market the Leica was designed for anyway.

 

[robmac]

What will be interesting, as i think Guy mentioned is actual tests. How will a Hassy HC WA with DAC on a 39 compare to say an S2 with an equivalent AoV lens, no DAC?

How much will that difference in IQ deep be, in print, and how much will it cost? Leica and IQ in glass is a no brainer - as are Leica and spendy. You pay prefer the color, contrast or and drawing style of Zeiss or CV, etc- but the resolution, even WO is always there. However, you pay dear for that extra Nth % vs other premium lenses.

As a result, the words "Leica" and anything resembling the phrase "perfect glass", let alone in MFesque size (and with AF) scare the livin' beejesus out of me. The proof will be in print vs print comparisons - will that extra $$$ and, lets face it initial risk, translate into justifiably increased sales/won bids or a sufficient elevation, for you as the artist, in your finished creation?

 

[carstenw]

Sooner or later, due to that nasty noise/MP density physics problem and assuming you want to play in the same sandbox as the other kids a form factor like the S2 or any DSLR will literally run out of real estate in the shell for the sensor (plus electronics, etc) you need at X MP to deliver the IQ/ISO you want.

Sure, but the number of people needing that many MP badly enough to dish out that kind of money is not going to grow, but rather shrink. The current 39MP backs have enough resolution for almost all pro tasks. How many pros are currently saying that they want more? On the contrary, there was a long P65+ thread on LL where almost every single pro was saying that they saw no need for it. A few wealthy amateurs will probably make up most of that market.

With 37.5MP the S2 will be enough for almost everyone for quite some time. The S3 or whatever it will be called will come in perhaps 4-5 years, and who knows what it will offer, but it will sweep up nearly all of the rest, as far as covering people's resolution requirements. Some pros need other body features, like large shift and tilt, and for them, the backs will continue to be the way to go, but the S2 is enough for almost everyone who could want more quality than a 35mm camera can give you.

It's not far from the dilemma faced by Canon, Nikon and Sony with 24x36 24MP+ sensors - how far can they stretch that sensor's density before they need to reach for the 'reset button', move up the food chain - and start poaching glass gurus from H and M? Big $$, but may be necessary as MFDB kist keep dropping in value and moving downstream.

We shouldn't fool ourselves here: for most people MF will never be mainstream, no matter what the price point is. Very few people want to carry something as large as even a 1st gen. 5D, as I found out when I had one of those. "Too big" and "wow, that camera is so huge" were typical comments from mainstreamers.

And how far do you want to push the 24x36mm sensor area? Keep in mind that Olympus has just called an end to their MP race at 12MP. If they really stay there, and I do expect them to go a little higher, then 35mm DSLRs will max out at around 48MP, if they are willing to throw away all their high ISO and IQ advantages over 4/3, which I am betting that they will not. In other words, the end is in sight for the 35mm DSLR MP race. It took a very long time already to hit 21/24MP, from the last generation. The next step will be even harder, and the point is getting lost, when cameras like the 1Ds3 actually *lost* DR compared to their predecessors. How many pros want to go there? And as was already mentioned, the lenses are not there. Canon can barely make a lens without significant CA and their QA is all over the place. Nikon can barely make a lens with attractive boke, and 2/3 of their lens lineup is out of date. Even their 85/1.4, a crucial high-end portrait lens, is way behind the curve compared to the results of the competition. No, it takes companies like Hasselblad, Zeiss (but not the Cosina-built stuff, which is all over the place, QA- and IQ-wise) and especially Leica to really pull out the detail which the large sensors need.

No, the S2 is positioned perfectly to benefit from the IQ-hungry spill-over customers from the fast-growing, but glass-ceilinged 35mm DSLR race, something which the huge and unwieldy, and frankly unpolished existing MF cannot benefit from. Can you imagine explaining to mr. 1Ds3-graduate that with his new camera he needs to shoot a white shading/LCC file for each shot to get the quality he expects, and that the screen on the back of his new $20.000 camera is far dimmer and lower res than the one on his old $8k camera, that he needs to stop down to f8 to get sharp corners (okay, Canon customers are used to that), and that beyond ISO 400 the results will be worse? Forget it, the existing MF market will always be for the few masochists like us who want just a little more. The S2 doesn't have this problem. Pick up and shoot, that easy. Perfect for the über-doctor who wants to impress his 1Ds3-wielding friends, as well as for pros who want a VGA-res day-time visible screen, fast shooting, easy handling, and total integration, for fashion etc.

 

[robmac]

Carsten

"The S2 doesn't have this problem. Pick up and shoot, that easy. Perfect for the über-doctor who wants to impress his 1Ds3-wielding friends....etc."

This, I'm afraid, will end up being the bulk of the S2s sales if Leica doesn't a) do everything PERFECTLY b) have some VERY good luck and c) allow alternate glass on their body (which they will not do).

 

[jonoslack]

Carsten

"The S2 doesn't have this problem. Pick up and shoot, that easy. Perfect for the über-doctor who wants to impress his 1Ds3-wielding friends....etc."

This, I'm afraid, will end up being the bulk of the S2s sales if Leica doesn't a) do everything PERFECTLY b) have some VERY good luck and c) allow alternate glass on their body (which they will not do).

Rob - I think that's called 'mis-quoting' - you missed out the 'as well as for pros who want a VGA-res day-time visible screen, fast shooting, easy handling, and total integration, for fashion etc.

I speak to quite a lot of pros who are NOT gearheads, they want quality, but aren't willing for the tech knowledge which is certainly required to do MF digital.

Let's face it, whilst the S2 will certainly attract the über-doctor, a quick look around here will show you that current MF attracts the über-techie - and each has as much to do with being a pro-photographer as the other.

 

[jonoslack]

Perfect for the über-doctor who wants to impress his 1Ds3-wielding friends, as well as for pros who want a VGA-res day-time visible screen, fast shooting, easy handling, and total integration, for fashion etc.

Excellent post Carsten . . . I think I agreed with every word (and I never do that :ROTFL

 

[carstenw]

I just compared them, they're equally bad, even their lens design looks quite similiar - but the Planar was introduced 25 years earlier...

Well, that is for me hardly a criticism! I would not have the 110/2 any other way, as I love the results. The HC lens is a bit disappointing if it didn't improve in 25 years.

I barely know a MF-lens which us fully usable on 39MP-back below f4...

"Welcome to MF-land, Leica, the door is wide open!"

That's the point, most MF-lenses (except for HR/Digitars) are not very innovative designs. Most of them are good not too far in the corners, stopped down - basically the technological point we already reached over 25 years ago...

Interesting. I shall be looking at the S2 raw output very carefully. I am not a career doctor or dentist, and for me this kind of expensive is far from trivial, but I earn a decent wage, and if I really, really wanted an S2 system, it is at least within the realm of possibilities.

However, although I am quite convinced that Leica can and will pull off a proper launch, as well as find a position in the very-high-end amateur market, as well as the fashion pro market, I am not at all sure that I want one. I kinda like the quirkiness and meticulousness and lower speed of digital MF, and I like the unstressed optical designs which dominate. If the S2 becomes too easy to operate and the results are too sharp and have the same kind of tension that 35mm digital lenses have, I might well just stay with the Hasselblad V and Contax 645 systems I have.

 

[carstenw]

Carsten

"The S2 doesn't have this problem. Pick up and shoot, that easy. Perfect for the über-doctor who wants to impress his 1Ds3-wielding friends....etc."

This, I'm afraid, will end up being the bulk of the S2s sales if Leica doesn't a) do everything PERFECTLY b) have some VERY good luck and c) allow alternate glass on their body (which they will not do).

Well, I do believe that there is a segment of the pro industry which will love this camera. New York fashion studios come to mind. There will certainly be one or two rental stores in NYC which will stock the S2, so the service will be there, and the speed and lack of hassle is perfect.

However, I think that it is probably already the case that wealthy amateurs dominate the MF market. The S2 will only push that further.

I see no need for Leica to allow alternative glass. They have never done that before, why would they start now? Anyway, people don't buy Leica just to spend lots on the body and then buy cheap glass. The bulk of the lens sales even for the M8 with its out-of-patent mount is still Leica.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Just a reminder there IS a lot of MF 2.8 lenses that are outstanding wide open. We seem to forget the sensor size in all this too that directly relates to being wide open. 2.8/4 on a P45 is actually better than a 2.5 on a smaller sensor with regards to bokeh. As leica mention it is a half stop difference to 35mm FF which is F2 with there sensor a 2.8 is more like a stop difference on a P45 size that is 1.4.

Just a quicky to see what I mean this is a 150 at 2.8 . Folks to me this looks like a Nocti look with bokeh. Bad shot but you get my point.
Please let's stop the MF suck wide open because frankly that is far from the case. This 150mm is a amazing lens and oh it is from Mamiya can you believe that. LOL Seriously there are some great MF format glass out there and let's not underestimate there performance a lot of people stop down for DOF more than open up for lack of it. Even a shot at F11 this close i can barely carry the DOF from nose to ears and I mean barely

First one 2.8 than the second F11 and than the crop and you can see i cannot carry the DOF through the image.

BTW this is a P25 plus 22mpx 9 micron back . Wanna buy it. LOL

 

[robmac]

Actually, I call it creative quoting - as I agree with the first 1/2 of the comment but not necessarily the 2nd half - hence the ...." at the and of his quote indicating it continued further (and was just above mine and easily referenced). ;>

Does this mean you're going to pull my Pulitzer for Journalism?:shocked: ;>

FYI - . I was a good boy and went back and edited it to CLEARLY show it was a partial quote. Don't tell the Prize Committee (real prickly bunch).

Rob - I think that's called 'mis-quoting' - you missed out the 'as well as for pros who want a VGA-res day-time visible screen, fast shooting, easy handling, and total integration, for fashion etc.

I speak to quite a lot of pros who are NOT gearheads, they want quality, but aren't willing for the tech knowledge which is certainly required to do MF digital.

Let's face it, whilst the S2 will certainly attract the über-doctor, a quick look around here will show you that current MF attracts the über-techie - and each has as much to do with being a pro-photographer as the other.

 

[robmac]

Guy - Damn if that bottom shot & crop aren't sharp with great clarity (also easier to look at than the braces....too many bad childhood memories).

This is the kind of IQ that makes my wallet sweat -- and Heather sharpen the cutlery (in a rather obvious manner I might add).

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Certainly will make your wallet go in flames. I know I really like being over the 35mm world and this is a 22mpx sensor. Canon /Nikon/Sony wanna take a shot at me . I will kill ya. LOL

No i know they are great new systems and they are closer than they where in the past

 

[fotografz]

Marc,
The only segment of photo gear that has grown lately is the DSLR market, based on some recent studies I have seen. Most of that growth is NOT to professionals, but to moms wanting a better camera than their digicam to capture kids at soccer, kids around the house, kids at parties, etc., etc. This group is not really caring about or using the same things that more advanced amateurs and pros use a 35mm DSLR for, yet they have that capability in hand now. Heck, I would venture that most 35mm shooters do not get above ISO 800 most of the time, and few use high fps unless showing off, or trying to capture something in sports. And you know most 35mm users are NOT carting 400mm f2.8 glass around either. The big market growth in 35mm DLSR has been for better image quality over digicams. I think the same sort of things apply to those 35mm DSLR owners that may be looking toward MF or this S2. In that respect, as Jono responded, the "target buyers" could be way, way bigger from the 35mm DSLR segment than all of the present MF segment. Time will tell on this.

For me personally, the S2 will NOT cover all the stuff I do now. I do need higher ISO, higher fps, super-tele and other high-end DSLR features, but I also want a better quality image for multi-purpose use, and just better quality. While I can get that better image quality from present MF, the MF gear does not help me with much beyond that either, but its costs are considerable in comparison. However, that is me and what I shoot. I do think that there are a lot of 35mm DSLR wedding shooters, portrait shooters, fine art shooters, product shooters, and even some PJ-type folks that would be interested in the S2 and what it has to offer. For them, it could be a "replacement" system. For others like me and maybe most MF shooters, it may be more of the "supplement" system. With that in mind, the new potential target group may be considerably larger than the present MF group, as it looks to tap a lot more 35mm DSLR folks just wanting bigger and better quality, but not wanting MF prices and hassles over gear and stuff. We shall see if this plays out that way. I am not jumping anywhere just yet as the business I do now is changing, 35mm DSLR is topping out, but MF is still needing some better pricing and simplification and speed and.... If I had to jump today, it most likely would be to Hassy, but that is just the point....there is still so much churning in the MF segment that it could all change next month or so. I do think Phase/Mamiya will toss something new into the mix, but will it really be any better? Just do not know, and while that is still somewhat the case for the S2, it looks like it could hit a lot of marks for what I want MF for. Still need the 35mm DSLR for my other stuff, but that too is changing.

There is no perfect camera, nor perfect camera system for everybody, or at least for most folks. The issue becomes how much is one willing to spend, and how much use are they realistically going to get from whatever they buy? I do not shoot, nor need a tech camera today. The present MF backs are very pricey, but pitiful on things that I think important while shooting (LCD, weather seals, ease of use, etc.), but that is just me. I want my gear to get out of my way, not be the focus of why I am shooting.

LJ

P.S. Not saying you have and shoot what you do for that reason, but I do think there are a lot of MF shooters that are more caught up with the gear than anything else. That is fine for them, but it does not do much for me nor my interests

I'd have to totally agree that the 35mm DSLR segment is overwhelmingly larger than MFD, and it has grown/is growing exponentially, mostly to the general public that shoot below 800, never test the buffer and use kit lenses. However, I seriously doubt "Mom" is going to spring for a Leica S2 in place of her $800. digital Rebel to shoot the kiddies ... unless her cookie jar bank is the size of Mt. Everest. Wedding shooters using the big meg 35mm DSLRs are a tiny, tiny minority, and even fewer use MFD. The $2,700. Canon 5D/5DII is GOD in weddingville ... and remember, wedding shooters need two of everything. Pros that use a 35mm DSLR do so for specific reasons that the S2 doesn't deliver. If the S2 goes after the R8/9 folks, who's going to buy the R10?

So who is this "Bigger" 35mm DSLR source of sales I wonder? Not that I don't think they are there, just far fewer of them than folks may think.

I also think that the other brands on the block aren't asleep at the marking wheel. If this S2 camera even begins to make inroads to "mover uppers", they'll sacrifice the lower end units at a price point that'll suffocate S2 sales or snuff them out altogether. How's a $11K or 12K H3D-II/31 sound? Mamiya/Leaf for 10 or 11K? The idea is to get a "switcher upper" to switch to you, and get them into the family for lenses, accessories, and future upgrades. That you can buy used lenses for every one of the competing systems at attractive prices is a huge advantage.

Let's put to bed the notion that all of these MFD camera systems are complex and user unfriendly for high meg 35mm DSLR users. Once upon a time maybe, but not now. My H3D-II/31 and 39 are waaaaaaay less complex to navigate and use than my Canon 1DsMKXXXs were, or than the D/D700 or the Sony A900 I now use. For what I use MFD for, the camera is "never in the way". It's as integrated as any DSLR I've used, and works every time. Speed? well I don't know ... but there are Leaf backs (65S) that shoot at 70+ frames a minute with no buffer limit.

You may well be right that some users are caught up in their gear ... but that's the nature of a forum like this ... the focus is on gear news. That I spent the last 2 weeks shooting 2010 car wheels, luggage racks, and a gaggle of margarine pack shots, with a 39 meg back on a view camera ... or a bunch of poster sized head shots with the H3D-II/31 is hardly a topic anyone would be interested in ... except maybe my accountant.

 

[ptomsu]

I tink in the MF arena all lenses are today up to a very high standard. No vendor can afford to produce and sell bad stuff in that price region.

Of course there will be differences, especially to Leica glass. But be honest, will this really matter? I see much more improvement from larger sensor sizes and flexibility due to detachable back and/or camera and back separated, then sucking out the last 5% in lens quality and design. For this we have SW today guys, also if some of us do not want to belief this - like me

So the point is - the S2 design and sensor site are a VERY limiting factor compared to real MF, Leica will be able to overcome this in maybe the next generation S2 and maybe once more with even more sophisticated lens design and/or SW - but then they hit the wall. The folks like Phamayia and Hasselblad will simply hit the wall much later

The only good thing about the S2 in my eyes is, that it wlll force the big gorillas to get more competitive in all areas, quality, innovation and pricing. And this alone makes me love the S System project :clap:

 

[ptomsu]

I'd have to totally agree that the 35mm DSLR segment is overwhelmingly larger than MFD, and it has grown/is growing exponentially, mostly to the general public that shoot below 800, never test the buffer and use kit lenses. However, I seriously doubt "Mom" is going to spring for a Leica S2 in place of her $800. digital Rebel to shoot the kiddies ... unless her cookie jar bank is the size of Mt. Everest. Wedding shooters using the big meg 35mm DSLRs are a tiny, tiny minority, and even fewer use MFD. The $2,700. Canon 5D/5DII is GOD in weddingville ... and remember, wedding shooters need two of everything. Pros that use a 35mm DSLR do so for specific reasons that the S2 doesn't deliver. If the S2 goes after the R8/9 folks, who's going to buy the R10?

So who is this "Bigger" 35mm DSLR source of sales I wonder? Not that I don't think they are there, just far fewer of them than folks may think.

I also think that the other brands on the block aren't asleep at the marking wheel. If this S2 camera even begins to make inroads to "mover uppers", they'll sacrifice the lower end units at a price point that'll suffocate S2 sales or snuff them out altogether. How's a $11K or 12K H3D-II/31 sound? Mamiya/Leaf for 10 or 11K? The idea is to get a "switcher upper" to switch to you, and get them into the family for lenses, accessories, and future upgrades. That you can buy used lenses for every one of the competing systems at attractive prices is a huge advantage.

Let's put to bed the notion that all of these MFD camera systems are complex and user unfriendly for high meg 35mm DSLR users. Once upon a time maybe, but not now. My H3D-II/31 and 39 are waaaaaaay less complex to navigate and use than my Canon 1DsMKXXXs were, or than the D/D700 or the Sony A900 I now use. For what I use MFD for, the camera is "never in the way". It's as integrated as any DSLR I've used, and works every time. Speed? well I don't know ... but there are Leaf backs (65S) that shoot at 70+ frames a minute with no buffer limit.

You may well be right that some users are caught up in their gear ... but that's the nature of a forum like this ... the focus is on gear news. That I spent the last 2 weeks shooting 2010 car wheels, luggage racks, and a gaggle of margarine pack shots, with a 39 meg back on a view camera ... or a bunch of poster sized head shots with the H3D-II/31 is hardly a topic anyone would be interested in ... except maybe my accountant.

I could not agree more!

What I am pretty sure is, as soon as Leica S2 hits the shelves the H3D2 with 39MP will come down as a kit to around $12k or so and if I would be Hasselblad I would want to kill the S2 by simply giving the kit H32/39MP kit away for even less. So nobody buys a S2 anymore and the are left to the shelves.

How does that sound?

 

[robmac]

No argument from me on DSLRs vs MFDB.

Forget the benefits of the larger sensor and fatter photocells, just getting that #$%& AA filter out of our 24x36mm way would be a GREAT start. I can always use someone else's manual focus glass for the critical or wide stuff if yours still sucks wind.

Certainly will make your wallet go in flames. I know I really like being over the 35mm world and this is a 22mpx sensor. Canon /Nikon/Sony wanna take a shot at me . I will kill ya. LOL

No i know they are great new systems and they are closer than they where in the past

 

[robmac]

On the business side (not the tech which looks brilliant) of the S2, Leica will have to flawlessly execute a LOT of key steps and be VERY lucky for the S2 to be a ongoing commercial success.

On the flip side, it will take very little by way of missteps or competitive initiative to stop or critically slow that ongoing success in it's tracks.

Sony has a similar issue, on a different scale, with the A900 - going in against N and C. The difference is that rather than having a very spendy body, glass and a totally closed system; or a premium body and making the it adaptable to other glass; they priced the A900 for a huge price/performance benefit and (to a degree) premium-priced the lenses (in a pseudo-closed system) while starting with a well known and premium partner, Zeiss, for some of the glass. Razors and razor blades as they say.

Even with their resources, the A900 launch is a big risk, the ultimate success of which is still unknown -- and they weren't trying to redefine an entire new camera category.

I could not agree more!

What I am pretty sure is, as soon as Leica S2 hits the shelves the H3D2 with 39MP will come down as a kit to around $12k or so and if I would be Hasselblad I would want to kill the S2 by simply giving the kit H32/39MP kit away for even less. So nobody buys a S2 anymore and the are left to the shelves.

How does that sound?

 

[fotografz]

I could not agree more!

What I am pretty sure is, as soon as Leica S2 hits the shelves the H3D2 with 39MP will come down as a kit to around $12k or so and if I would be Hasselblad I would want to kill the S2 by simply giving the kit H32/39MP kit away for even less. So nobody buys a S2 anymore and the are left to the shelves.

How does that sound?

Now, a birdy told me something really big is coming from Hasselblad ... totally up there in the stratosphere, and is something no one is expecting in their wildest dreams.

I'm trying to confirm, but that damned company is like Fort Knox when it come to info. If it's even close to true, the H3D-39 will become a semi-pro camera priced as an entry level kit.

Holy-moly ... stay tuned.

If you never hear from me again, black opps from Sweden took me out :ROTFL:

 

[KeithL]

How's a $11K or 12K H3D-II/31 sound?

They'd sell 'em faster than they could make 'em and would make a killing on the extra lens and accessory sales.