stephengilbert
Active member
"[M]aking a loss on every camera?"
But you could make up for it in volume.
But you could make up for it in volume.
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S2 and my impressions.
- Thread starter Guy Mancuso
- Start date
ptomsu
Workshop Member
It will be only a loss for the moment, but an investment in the future. Win customers for the H System and sell them new lenses and new backs over many years to come
And kill competition - like Leica S2?
carstenw
Active member
I am not sure about such a strategy. Recall that Leica is much larger than the others in the MF field. If Hasselblad hurts itself with too low prices, then due to its size and solid backing, Leica would be able to pull through, but Hasselblad may not. I think the best strategy is to try to differentiate the products. If the Leica S2 is really better for some uses, then emphasize the rest, and try not to lose too much ground. In the end the market will be much better off with this kind of strategy, and the companies will be healthier. Dirty fighting leads to bloody noses, and the instigator doesn't always come away unscathed. Besides, Hasselblad has already pulled two fast ones (killing off the V, going closed between H2 and H3D), and shouldn't play too much with fire, lest their customers finally abandon ship.
jotloob
Subscriber Member
Peterbut with the standards of the H System
Hasselblad please listen
I would not mind H standards , although I am not a friend of AF .
I found the CZ lenses extremely good for digital and believe , that HC lenses are not any better , even if HASSELBLAD wants to make us believe that .
The 4.5x6 format has never been attractive for me , and I do believe , that it was a big mistake from HASSELBLAD , to go for that format with the H1 , instead of develeoping the V-SYSTEM .
Now , as the facts are pinned down to 4.5x6 , all I would like to have , is a good square format digi back , bigger than my CFV . HASSELBLAD does not seem to be willing to go into that direction .
I use to say , other mothers also have nice daughters .
In other words , if HASSELBLAD does not do it , others might , and I will give them a great welcome . I am thinking mainly of LEAF .
Jürgen
ptomsu
Workshop Member
I would be also a buyer into that. Because I actually do not need a fast MF system but a very exactly working and good one. As I am mainly in landscapes and flowers etc.
So I found a square format as best suited for my needs and actually my best photos I could accomplish in square format. Somehow square inspires me to think and work on the perfection of a photo, while 4:3 or 3:2 or whatever brings me in most cases only "me too" results.
So I would really jump on such a back - or better system, which brings some relief for daily work like slow but accurate AF etc ..... also if it is not Hasselblad.
carstenw
Active member
Keith, if it was 56x56mm, I probably wouldn't either. But I think that 48x48mm is close enough at this point, and if the resolution was kept low, perhaps around 30MP, it might be feasible. I am shocked that with all the great old 6x6 cameras around, no one has dared make anything larger than 36x36mm yet.
Why would we "abandon ship"? Only non-Hasselbald customers say stuff like that. The people that were pissed about the H3D weren't customers using their digital backs ... for the most part, they were H1 & H2 users with Phase One or some other back. I much prefer what they ARE doing for their real digital camera customers ... innovation to solve real world job requirements and making the H system more and more useful.
Abandoned the V system. Who cares? Not one single local re-seller I know was stocking that gear any more, and "fire-sale" what they did have. Plus, I don't know one anyone that was buying V gear new ... except the 503/CFV & CFV-II and bundled 40IF ... which is still available BTW. Why would they keep making gear no one is buying new? There is more mint V gear for sale used than anyone could possibly need ... at prices that are a fraction of new ... and EVERYONE knows that ... except apparently non-user critics.
That said, there are a ton of legacy V users that would love a bigger square sensor. However, I seriously doubt it would be a barn burner in terms of sales unless by some miracle it was a CFV-II 48X48 priced below $15K. If it's such a hot prospect, why doesn't one of the other digital back makers jump on it? The V will take any back. Where is the Phase One or Leaf 48X48 that could be used on all the V, RZ/RB and Rollei cameras out there?
Also, why wouldn't any company blunt the intro of a potential competitor by using a entry level pricing strategy? That strategy doesn't produce a bloody nose, it produces sales into your system rather than the competitor's. When Hasselblad dropped the price of the H3D-II/31 the cameras flew out of inventory... and a bunch of new customers for ancillary gear came on-line. I doubt they are losing money with such moves. If the recent price drops by other makers is any indication, there is some pretty hefty margins built into this kind of gear.
I think we will see a $12 or 13K H3D-II/31 ... and then well see what happens.
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Forrest Black
New member
That is very true. The margins are pretty hefty and they are more so when the manufacturer is also the national distributor.
Has anyone noticed that Hasselblad has appointed as executive chairman, the former Carl Zeiss Asia-Pacific CEO, Dr. Larry Hansen? My gut feel suggests that Hasselblad may be working with Carl Zeiss again for its H-system.
David Grover / Phase One
New member
Nope!
carstenw
Active member
You wouldn't, and probably many, perhaps even most others wouldn't. But if Hasselblad keeps making unpopular moves like this, it does affect how people think about them, and it just sits there in your head and simmers. If one day an opportunity arises for a switch, some might just take it. A loss of faith can change things very fast. Have you read "The Tipping Point"?
The *existing* V owners. You talk only about new sales. New sales had dropped off a cliff because Hasselblad has provided no way forward with the system, not the other way around. People love their Vs. Hasselblad was one of the companies which ignored digital for way too long. There are still lots of V owners who harbour resentment for the abandonment of their V cameras. I thought that you were a big fan of the 203FE. Doesn't it bother you in the slightest that a large square sensor was never released? We frequent the same forums. I don't know why you don't notice the people lamenting the death of their V system. I do.
At this point it is no longer clear if it would be a success, although I tend to believe that it would. It would have to a simple back with good integration with the V system, for a low price, however. V owners are probably not the buyers of P65+ and AFiII-10 backs... $12k for a 30MP 48x48mm back would probably be a good place. When that it economically feasible, someone should do it, I don't care who.
It may increase sales. But it may also just lower income. It is always a gamble. If the coming system (speaking generally here...) is hotly anticipated, then it may change nothing, except your profit margin.
David Grover / Phase One
New member
If you built a 6 x 6 sensor with a 9 micron or better a 6 micron pixel size. What do you think...
a) The cost of the this sensor would be and
b) How many MegaPixels it would be
David
a) The cost of the this sensor would be and
b) How many MegaPixels it would be
David
You wouldn't, and probably many, perhaps even most others wouldn't. But if Hasselblad keeps making unpopular moves like this, it does affect how people think about them, and it just sits there in your head and simmers. If one day an opportunity arises for a switch, some might just take it. A loss of faith can change things very fast. Have you read "The Tipping Point"?
This assumes a loss of faith ... which I only see from people that aren't buying their products anyway. Those moves were mostly unpopular with owners of other backs and the companies that make them. Hasselblad is now Imacon which also happens to make their own camera ... why would they care about those buying someone else's digital back .... which is where the money is?
The *existing* V owners. You talk only about new sales. New sales had dropped off a cliff because Hasselblad has provided no way forward with the system, not the other way around. People love their Vs. Hasselblad was one of the companies which ignored digital for way too long. There are still lots of V owners who harbour resentment for the abandonment of their V cameras. I thought that you were a big fan of the 203FE. Doesn't it bother you in the slightest that a large square sensor was never released? We frequent the same forums. I don't know why you don't notice the people lamenting the death of their V system. I do.
Well, Hasselblad may have ignored it since they were a camera company back then, but virtually every digital back made worked on the V, so what's the issue? As to sales dropping off a cliff due to lack of developing the V system further ... why would they do that? Why not develop a whole new proprietary camera platform that uses the current (and still current digital) technology? Years later, and there still is no larger square sensor from any sensor maker to use on the V system. It was, and still is, vaporware.
One fact tends to escape everyone here .... Hasselblad is the ONLY MFD system that makes both the separate digital back and the modular camera system that's matched to it. Phase relies on other camera makers. So does Leaf and to some extent Sinar. Now there is the specter of the Hy6 going bye-bye with the possible demise of F&H. What if Mamiya goes belly up? Plenty of used gear to work with, but no more advancement in either camera system to stay current with developments in digital back technology.
At this point it is no longer clear if it would be a success, although I tend to believe that it would. It would have to a simple back with good integration with the V system, for a low price, however. V owners are probably not the buyers of P65+ and AFiII-10 backs... $12k for a 30MP 48x48mm back would probably be a good place. When that it economically feasible, someone should do it, I don't care who.
Doesn't exist. Vaporware. Wishful thinking (by me also). It's up to the sensor makers to do this ... if it'd be such a hot prospect why aren't they doing it?
It may increase sales. But it may also just lower income. It is always a gamble. If the coming system (speaking generally here...) is hotly anticipated, then it may change nothing, except your profit margin.
That is not how it works. The H3D is not new, it's R&D is probably covered already so it's likely that it'd still be profitable even at $12 or 13K ... or if not, would not be a loss leader draining profit margins ... which ancillary sales would most likely mitigate anyway.
All of which is good as far as I'm concerned ... the lower the price of this stuff the better ... especially now when business is so bad. But admittedly not so great for Leica trying to launch into the marketplace with competitors who's R&D costs have already been amortized to a great extent
This assumes a loss of faith ... which I only see from people that aren't buying their products anyway. Those moves were mostly unpopular with owners of other backs and the companies that make them. Hasselblad is now Imacon which also happens to make their own camera ... why would they care about those buying someone else's digital back .... which is where the money is?
The *existing* V owners. You talk only about new sales. New sales had dropped off a cliff because Hasselblad has provided no way forward with the system, not the other way around. People love their Vs. Hasselblad was one of the companies which ignored digital for way too long. There are still lots of V owners who harbour resentment for the abandonment of their V cameras. I thought that you were a big fan of the 203FE. Doesn't it bother you in the slightest that a large square sensor was never released? We frequent the same forums. I don't know why you don't notice the people lamenting the death of their V system. I do.
Well, Hasselblad may have ignored it since they were a camera company back then, but virtually every digital back made worked on the V, so what's the issue? As to sales dropping off a cliff due to lack of developing the V system further ... why would they do that? Why not develop a whole new proprietary camera platform that uses the current (and still current digital) technology? Years later, and there still is no larger square sensor from any sensor maker to use on the V system. It was, and still is, vaporware.
One fact tends to escape everyone here .... Hasselblad is the ONLY MFD system that makes both the separate digital back and the modular camera system that's matched to it. Phase relies on other camera makers. So does Leaf and to some extent Sinar. Now there is the specter of the Hy6 going bye-bye with the possible demise of F&H. What if Mamiya goes belly up? Plenty of used gear to work with, but no more advancement in either camera system to stay current with developments in digital back technology.
At this point it is no longer clear if it would be a success, although I tend to believe that it would. It would have to a simple back with good integration with the V system, for a low price, however. V owners are probably not the buyers of P65+ and AFiII-10 backs... $12k for a 30MP 48x48mm back would probably be a good place. When that it economically feasible, someone should do it, I don't care who.
Doesn't exist. Vaporware. Wishful thinking (by me also). It's up to the sensor makers to do this ... if it'd be such a hot prospect why aren't they doing it?
It may increase sales. But it may also just lower income. It is always a gamble. If the coming system (speaking generally here...) is hotly anticipated, then it may change nothing, except your profit margin.
That is not how it works. The H3D is not new, it's R&D is probably covered already so it's likely that it'd still be profitable even at $12 or 13K ... or if not, would not be a loss leader draining profit margins ... which ancillary sales would most likely mitigate anyway.
All of which is good as far as I'm concerned ... the lower the price of this stuff the better ... especially now when business is so bad. But admittedly not so great for Leica trying to launch into the marketplace with competitors who's R&D costs have already been amortized to a great extent
KeithL
Well-known member
Couldn't agree more, forget the large square sensor. Concentrate instead on reducing H3D prices to make them more attractive to a wider audience, including starving artist/photographers.
carstenw
Active member
Okay, it seems that our opionions on the matter just differ, and there doesn't really appear to be any way to resolve anything, so I'll just leave it at this point. We have both expressed our thoughts.
One minor point I wanted to respond to: the sensor makers don't work in a vacuum. When Leica wanted sensors for the DMR, M8 and S2, they went to Kodak with specs in hand. When Phase wanted to make the P65+, they went to Dalsa. These companies work with their customers. If a 36x56mm chip is possible, so is a 48x48mm chip. The only thing missing is the will.
It is as if the love of the square never existed, or as if it was a brief (decade-long actually) love affair. I don't understand why no one caters to this market. The square is still a wonderful way to frame things.
FWIW, I think I ought to add a little about my opinion of the H system, for those who feel attacked by my Hasselblad rants. My main issue is with the two decisions I have already mentioned: the killing of the V, and going from open to closed.
In fact, I consider the H system to be the strongest MF system on the market at the moment, and it doesn't appear to do anything worse than anyone else (except it doesn't match the 1-hour exposures of Phase), and it does a lot of things better. The integration is excellent, the viewfinder is bright, the system is very complete, and everything works well together. Hasselblad doesn't appear to suffer from the QA issues of Mamiya, or the partially out-of-date or incomplete Hy6 (although I am sure that this will be fixed with time). Leaf also seems to be going strongly, but Hasselblad just outperforms them at this time. If I were to go pro, and was looking into MF for those purposes, I would probably buy an H. Even though it is two-tone grey-brown.
But I am no pro, and I make photos for the love of it, and I feel an emotional connection to my Contax 645 and especially my V system that I don't expect to feel for the H. This is similar to how I prefer my M8 to a DSLR. The DSLR and the H are clearly more well-rounded and competent for pro work, but the soul is not there any more. They are just good tools.
One minor point I wanted to respond to: the sensor makers don't work in a vacuum. When Leica wanted sensors for the DMR, M8 and S2, they went to Kodak with specs in hand. When Phase wanted to make the P65+, they went to Dalsa. These companies work with their customers. If a 36x56mm chip is possible, so is a 48x48mm chip. The only thing missing is the will.
It is as if the love of the square never existed, or as if it was a brief (decade-long actually) love affair. I don't understand why no one caters to this market. The square is still a wonderful way to frame things.
FWIW, I think I ought to add a little about my opinion of the H system, for those who feel attacked by my Hasselblad rants. My main issue is with the two decisions I have already mentioned: the killing of the V, and going from open to closed.
In fact, I consider the H system to be the strongest MF system on the market at the moment, and it doesn't appear to do anything worse than anyone else (except it doesn't match the 1-hour exposures of Phase), and it does a lot of things better. The integration is excellent, the viewfinder is bright, the system is very complete, and everything works well together. Hasselblad doesn't appear to suffer from the QA issues of Mamiya, or the partially out-of-date or incomplete Hy6 (although I am sure that this will be fixed with time). Leaf also seems to be going strongly, but Hasselblad just outperforms them at this time. If I were to go pro, and was looking into MF for those purposes, I would probably buy an H. Even though it is two-tone grey-brown.
But I am no pro, and I make photos for the love of it, and I feel an emotional connection to my Contax 645 and especially my V system that I don't expect to feel for the H. This is similar to how I prefer my M8 to a DSLR. The DSLR and the H are clearly more well-rounded and competent for pro work, but the soul is not there any more. They are just good tools.
KeithL
Well-known member
Believe me, the love affair with the square still exists - witness my website, not a rectangle in sight - and there are there are plenty of film based solutions out there catering for this market.
I see 3/2 4/3 format digital capture as an addition to the square film based format, not as a replacement.
KeithL
Well-known member
...or shoot film and scan.