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S2 and my impressions.

jotloob

Subscriber Member
As Marc pointed out , we do not have a bigger square sensor than 37x37 , because none of the sensor makers produces a bigger square sensor .

The H-SYSTEM could take a 48x48 sensor and I see big chances for good sales figures for such a back . I believe that some players in the game do not want a sensor 48x48 to come on the market . Technically , I think , it would not be a problem . If you can produce 36x56 sensors , why not 48x48 sensors ? ? ?
 

Graham Mitchell

New member
As Marc pointed out , we do not have a bigger square sensor than 37x37 , because none of the sensor makers produces a bigger square sensor .

The H-SYSTEM could take a 48x48 sensor and I see big chances for good sales figures for such a back . I believe that some players in the game do not want a sensor 48x48 to come on the market . Technically , I think , it would not be a problem . If you can produce 36x56 sensors , why not 48x48 sensors ? ? ?
It's not that they don't want to, but that there is not a large enough market. Sensors are expensive and every square millimeter costs. Small volume also increases the price repaidly. So a 6x6 sensor will be a lot more expensive than a 645 sensor (maybe twice the price?), yet most images shot on square format end up being cropped to a rectangle anyway. The upshot is that a 645 sensor will be a much more attractive deal to most. (Tough luck on the small minority who prefer the square crop - they will just have to crop the rectangle back to a square).

Btw, the H system is about the worst potential candidate for a 48x48 sensor. The viewfinder is only big enough for Hasselblad's 'new full frame - 48x36mm', afaik, and the image circle of some lenses is also too small (e.g. the 28mm only covers 48x36mm). The only realistic candidates for large square sensors are the Rollei 6000/Hy6/Afi or the old Hasselblad V systems (and I can't see anyone developing an expensive new sensor for the V).
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
I honestly think it is an economic thing -- most of the people willing to pay for medium format digital are shooting commercial where the end product is usually close to a 4:3 ratio. In film, shooting in a square was not a big deal as it just required slightly more film so if people cropped down, it tended not to really matter. With digital, that extra bit of sensor is a substantial extra cost given the difficulty in making sensors (the bigger it is, the more likelihood of an error in the chip, and consequently the higher rejection rate and cost). If 80-90% of their intended market is going to crop off that extra bit of information anyway, it makes more economic sense to stick to the 4:3 ratio.
As for the people who like the square -- it is more often artists and amateurs (I don't mean this in an derogatory sense...in the sense of someone who loves photography for making pictures, not for taking photos for catalogs, of products etc). In that market, people are less likely to want to pay 20,000-30,000 dollars for a digital back. They cannot amortize the costs and it is viewed as a discretionary expenditure rather than a business move. Hasselblad probably figures that they catered well to that market with the CFV -- they gave them a square sensor that worked seemlessly with the V series cameras and lenses that they preferred using. At the same time, they kept it at under 10,000 dollars so that it was an easier sell to this type of photographer. I am sure if they could make a full frame square chip for a price they thought would be profitable, they would do it.

Anyway, if anyone does it, it is likely to be Sinar or Leaf -- they have the camera system that is best suited to it (in the Hy6/AFi), and Leaf especially has shown willingness to make non-standard sized sensors. I suspect that the future of a square back from them will be dictated by how well the AFi 10 does.

Edit: I was writing this while Graham wrote his post...we were thinking along very similar lines.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Square format is not really that viable in the commercial end results. It's actually quite rare to see square in magazines , catalogs, and marketing pieces.
 

rmueller

Well-known member
... I see big chances for good sales figures for such a back .
Juergen,

I question that. How many square format pictures do we see in magazines and ads ? Can't remember a single one
(apart from the pictures in the good old Hasselblad Forum magazine).

So it is left to hobbyist shooters. And there we have only few nerds left that are
willing to spend >12-15k Euro for a digital back.

I'm pretty sure the companies in that market have made their homework and
calculated the expected sales figures. The result speaks for itself.

Of course they may re-consider their decision, but then the price of the 48x48 has to drop to about 7-8k Euro (ala D3X).
Not sure when that will happen though. (if it happens i would by one for my V system since i love the square format,
meanwhile I'm totally happy with my H3DII)

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Regards,
Ralf
 

jotloob

Subscriber Member
Btw, the H system is about the worst potential candidate for a 48x48 sensor. The viewfinder is only big enough for Hasselblad's 'new full frame - 48x36mm', afaik, and the image circle of some lenses is also too small (e.g. the 28mm only covers 48x36mm). The only realistic candidates for large square sensors are the Rollei 6000/Hy6/Afi or the old Hasselblad V systems (and I can't see anyone developing an expensive new sensor for the V).
Sorry , I was wrong . The H-SYSTEM would not be able to take a 48x48 sensor .(but a 42x42 should be possible) It is a 4.5x6 system and some lenses have an image circle big enough for 42x56mm some others might not have the required image circle .

I agree , that the final results in the professional world are in most cases not square and that square images would have to be cropped to a 4:3 ratio .
I have recently attended a model shooting where H-SYSTEM cameras have been used .
When I saw the photographers turning the cameras from horizontal to vertical position and back again , I thought , pour guys , and how wonderful and easy to handle must it be , to have a digital back with a big enough square sensor . Full concentration on the shooting without a lot of gymn . In other words , the square format would have the adantage of easier handling .
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Following all your thought on square format I must say I fully agree with both sides.

As I was probably the one who initiated this discussion, I want to mention, that in my personal favor I like square, because it opens up my mind. Now this of course is not any justification for a business case, nor will it turn any manufacturer into building square format backs and systems for the digital world.

But on the other side consider, that evolution in the digital area is progressing extremely fast, thus in some time from now building square format sensors will become feasible and much cheaper than it is today. And maybe then the time has come ....

At least i would love it.
 

jotloob

Subscriber Member
The "sensor size topic" has also been discussed in other forums and I have contributed as well . I admit sometime also emotional .
Why ? ? ?
First , because I do love the square format .
Second , because I hoped that sensor and digital back makers would hear my prayers and those of many others as well .

Then we were not far away from PHOTOKINA and not only my hopes were disappointed , but also many others did expect that something would happen in the "square sensor world " .
Nothing of the kind .

But presented was a sensor 36x56 . Here we have a ratio of 4:6,2 .
LEAF APTUS -II 10 . (ca.30.000 €)
Is there anyone out there , who sees a need for that size of sensor ? ? ?
It is not a pano sensor . Not wide enough . And with the currently available stitching software , panos are much cheaper to achieve .
So , who are the users for that format ? ? ?

But it looks as if the pixelmania rules the professional world . 50MP , 56MP , 60 MP . Were will the future development go ? ? ?
Pixelmania produces many funny flowers .
The journey will shurely bring us even bigger sensors .

But still , I will not give up hope for a 48x48 sensor digital back , which can be adapted to the V-SYSTEM .
And I do not care who makes it . Not any more . Even beeing a loyal owner of great HASSELBLAD gear .
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Now, a birdy told me something really big is coming from Hasselblad ... totally up there in the stratosphere, and is something no one is expecting in their wildest dreams.

I'm trying to confirm, but that damned company is like Fort Knox when it come to info. If it's even close to true, the H3D-39 will become a semi-pro camera priced as an entry level kit.

Holy-moly ... stay tuned.

If you never hear from me again, black opps from Sweden took me out :ROTFL:
:).

If you trust internal road maps from RED, Phase One, and Hasselblad then we will all be shooting 1000 megapixel cameras at 100fps on 2 foot wide sensors in mid 2010.

Take the optimism of an R+D guy and magnify it through the lens of internal marketing evangelism and reality and plans often diverge by an order of magnitude.

Let's all live in the here and now shall we?

__________________
Doug Peterson (Email Me)
Head of Technical Services
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
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Stuart Richardson

Active member
Remember the build up to the Segway? When that guy was saying, "I have an invention that will change the world!" and it turned out to be a freaking scooter?
My guess is that Hasselblad is building a digital back into a Segway...
heh

No, I hope it is a thing which will change all our lives, but I have a feeling Doug is probably right.
 

carstenw

Active member
Where is Marc anyway? Did the black ops get him? Maybe he is out there screaming for help, or maybe he is out there, earning enough money to get that special thing that Hasselblad is coming out with. He has got my curiousity piqued, that is for sure.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Where is Marc anyway? Did the black ops get him? Maybe he is out there screaming for help, or maybe he is out there, earning enough money to get that special thing that Hasselblad is coming out with. He has got my curiousity piqued, that is for sure.


Everyone has special things they're going to come out with. :lecture:

The only differences are when someone says something about the thing in correlation to when the thing is actually going to ship.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
I think it's important to understand that the S2 will have appeal way beyond the traditional MF crowd. By offering MF resolution and quality in a system that is weather sealed and has a form factor (size and ergonomics) that I know I can live with, this would be the only camera I need. Studio, street, on location at factories or in the jungle... I can't really see any situation when I would not bring an S2.

The Canikony all lack in one or more features, and the traditional MF cameras are not what I would carry around anywhere. A Sony with Zeiss lenses seems to be the strongest competitor in my book, but given the choice, and if price didn't matter, I would undoubtedly end up with the Leica.

The big question mark is the price. It will obviously be much more expensive than Canikony, and I keep asking myself how much I would be willing to pay, if I could afford it. At the moment I can't, and I probably have that in common with a lot of potential users.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I think it's important to understand that the S2 will have appeal way beyond the traditional MF crowd. By offering MF resolution and quality in a system that is weather sealed and has a form factor (size and ergonomics) that I know I can live with, this would be the only camera I need. Studio, street, on location at factories or in the jungle... I can't really see any situation when I would not bring an S2.

The Canikony all lack in one or more features, and the traditional MF cameras are not what I would carry around anywhere. A Sony with Zeiss lenses seems to be the strongest competitor in my book, but given the choice, and if price didn't matter, I would undoubtedly end up with the Leica.

The big question mark is the price. It will obviously be much more expensive than Canikony, and I keep asking myself how much I would be willing to pay, if I could afford it. At the moment I can't, and I probably have that in common with a lot of potential users.
BINGO! That it in a nutshell.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I could certainly fill a much needed gap in my work with the S2. No question it has my name written all over it and exactly what I am looking for BUT this is not even a option for me UNTIL a FULL system is OUT and ALL systems are full bore with service , repairs, firmware , lenses and accessories. I will NOT go in with it half way and it must be priced correctly. Issue is this is not ready for me until after January about 3 or 4 months after release. For a Pro too be waiting is not always the best choice.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I could certainly fill a much needed gap in my work with the S2. No question it has my name written all over it and exactly what I am looking for BUT this is not even a option for me UNTIL a FULL system is OUT and ALL systems are full bore with service , repairs, firmware , lenses and accessories. I will NOT go in with it half way and it must be priced correctly. Issue is this is not ready for me until after January about 3 or 4 months after release. For a Pro too be waiting is not always the best choice.
I agree with that although I might not need as many lenses as you would, but at least 3 or so.

I have a question WRT resolution - which s actually the most important one for my needs: do you think that the 37MP will be enough for 60" x 40" or similar print sizes (mostly landscapes)? Would there not be the need for 50 or 60MP?

This is my biggest concern besides the fact that I have doubts how Leica will perform their professional service etc.
 
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