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Thread: S2 and my impressions.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    S2 and my impressions.

    Let me start this with some background that I think is important and a little different than Davids excellent blog post. Let's say I came into looking at the S2 with very skeptical emotions. Given the fact I own a MF system today and come form all of Leica's digital camera's at least the DMR and M8 and I know what to expect with Leica gear and how it works and how they think in a lot of ways. I also have very specific needs and problems also. My big concern with MF is speed in shooting, shutter delay , ISO, review, tethered and ISO and all stuff that I deal with today that can use some improvement. So believe it or not jumping over the moon to get a Leica per say is not a priority at all.So I did few this in a very neutral state. This takes some real care in thought for me to buy and still does even after the demo. Now I did the demo than went back and sat down with David and camera and had a semi-private chat. I did learn a few more things than maybe has been posted that I will share. My one concern is warranty and service and like the Phase module , Leica will offer 2 to 3 levels of service and repair and loaners. Obviously they will be priced accordingly which they should. Basic service most likely like the M8 with your normal warranty. Than another level that will have loaner service on a 24 or 48 hour turn to get a loaner. Thispart is still being developed so don't hang on every work. Basically you want loaner service than that will be at a higher price than the basic warranty. Which BTW all service and repairs are done in Solms or NJ.

    Now here is another important part. All of this loaner service will go through preferred Leica dealers. So David being a preferred dealer I buy through him with this warranty he will handle my needs. Now let me add something just because a shop sells does not mean they are a preferred dealer. So only those dealers will be able to sell The S2 system and only those will handle all parts of it. Not sure how you get to be a preferred dealer but we can all guess. sales and service records that match those criteria set by Leica. I need to post this before my laptop shuts down
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Lets continue on with the camera. Well it is really well built and certainly up to Leica standards and rubber gaskets will be on back of all lenses and any opening on camera, battery, CF card door, under dials and the list goes on. So very well protected from the elements. I am just going to go random here to get thoughts down so jumping around is possible . LOL battery is 7.4 Volt 2500 and 18.5 watts or so . Not very big and a lot like a Canon 1d series in size maybe 2 inches big. There is a lever to release the battery like a mirror lock up style on the DMR. Lenses are very interesting and fall in two groups 72 and 82 filter size and they all look to use the same tubing size only bigger and smaller for each type of lens. They are not like a Nikon that start small at the mount and flare out. They start and stop the same size all the way though the barrel .
    Okay let me jump back to camera speed . I felt little to no shutter lag and the release is in the same spot as the DMR and very user friendly which I still think to this day the best release around on the DMR and followed it's way to the S2 it is not on top but forward facing.

    The FPS felt really nice coming from the MF world and faster than many to almost all of them. Due the 1 one thousand 2 one thousand and your pretty much there. Not Nikon or Canon speed but very fast and better than my back. AF one center point seemed very accurate with just a touch of hunting in low light, They all hunt so get over that one fast. Very normal and also the AF focusing was pretty quick when switching from one area to another. Again let me remind you this is no 35mm but MF and this world is slower but this Leica is very good at speed . Review was almost instant and so is zooming a huge plus here given the file size and a very nice 3 inch LCD . Which BTW will be sold without the saffire glass and also with it. The saffire glass in a 3 inch size is almost unheard of so the price for this option maybe high . But glad to see we have a option here and leica wanted folks to have this option because of the cost of the saffire. I think this was very good thinking myself. Okay the top deck display shutter , ISO, aperture and a few others looks really nice. Also the three in LCD you have a option to see all camera data with I love this feature. 4 push buttons to control menu , playback and other stuff and the menu system was leica clean. Very nice and I don't know all the options tonight but very well thought out. Vertical grip looked nice with it attached there will be a handstrap. Which I am all for the DMR was the best on the planet.

    So the ergonomics are very nice. I was telling Jack on the phone if you walked into a store and picked up a D3 a lot like that very DSLR style. No i should explain this because in MF there is nothing like this kind of DSLR style. They are more boxy and square. So for me this is a huge welcome sign, because it does feel like that style which many of us like. Now it is heavy per say but you are talking Leica and build quality and that does not come in a light weight package

    Okay I will continue in morning , too tired and typing on a laptop is not my idea of fun sitting in bed. Pardon the typo's
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Thanks for your report, Guy.

    If Leica means to woo professionals, their first line of defence for service and support should be the rental houses and not Preferred Leica Dealers unless there are no rental houses in the area.

    I don't think even David Farkas would like to get into the rental business for that is not his business model. A camera that sits on the shelf does not earn its keep. How many S2s can David afford to keep in his inventory as replacements?

    When you are shooting a campaign or a wedding, a 24-hour turnaround time for a loaner is untenable because you have a studio and a whole team waiting like models, talents, stylists, etc. for the former and an angry bride and her mother in the latter and they cost you big dollars. When you need a replacement, you need it NOW. Rental houses are best-placed to see to this need, not Preferred Leica Dealers unless they too wish to be in the rental business. Rental houses keep the cameras checked with a certain number in service at any one time. It is in their business model to keep cameras working and circulating.

    As a professional, I want to know that if a camera breaks down in the middle of a shoot, I can send my assistant to the nearest rental house and get a replacement immediately. If I invest my business in the S2, I need to have the assurance that when I need a replacement, it is there within the hour at my nearest rental house .

    What am I gonna do with Leica Preferred? Hey, Dave, the S2 is toast, FedEx one over to New York/Los Angeles? Sure, Forrest, tomorrow at 9am, see ya. And meanwhile, I am paying to rent Pier 59 for one more day, model/talent for one more day, lights and stuff for one more day, assistants, stylists for one more day (oh, they are booked for another gig tomorrow, shoot, I am screwed, gotta look for another team), the art director needs to make a deadline, his client is fuming mad, etc. The cost to me and my reputation: $10 000, $20 000, $30 000 or more. I may as well buy a back-up S2 or switch over to Hasselblad or Canon/Nikon. At least, I know that with those I can run over to my nearest rental house and get them replaced.

    I think you get my drift.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    I think it is worth waiting to actually SEE how it shakes out rather than dismiss it already. Who knows who is going to be a preferred dealer and who is going to rent it? In LA and Santa Barbara, Samy's had (at least the last time I was there) a Leica shop-in-shop and rented Leica. I can see them selling and renting the S2. Same goes for Calumet...I don't think they had a shop in shop, but they sell Leica and would probably rent the S2 (they rent the Hy6, AFi, Phase One and Hasselblad). In New York, places like Fotocare, Calumet again, Lens and Repro, the Photo Village sell and/or rent Leica and would be likely culprits to rent. I don't know about other big cities, but there are still people out there who sell and rent Leica...it is not all boutique stores.
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Stuart, is your renting experience limited to Samy's and Calumet and Photo Village? I don't think you know what you're talking about here, with all due respect to you and your high learning. You do not know what I am referring to. Do you honestly think professionals who shoot fashion, advertising and commerce, etc. rent their stuff from Photo Village? I will give you a hint: look for Profoto, Broncolor, Matthews, Hasselblad, etc... Look for gaffer's tape, clamps, backdrops, gels, dulling sprays, foam-cores, Cinefoil, etc. OK, look in the pages of PDN.

    I am not dismissing anything. I am shedding, what I hope, is some light on things Leica may have missed. Leica must get this right from the get-go by placing the S2s where they can help the most. Hell, I may sound adversarial but I am not. Having Preferred Leica Dealers service the professionals is missing the point by a long shot.

    I don't think you shoot for a living, Stuart. Please allow me to talk about what I know about.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest Black View Post
    Stuart, is your renting experience limited to Samy's and Calumet and Photo Village? I don't think you know what you're talking about here, with all due respect to you and your high learning. You do not know what I am referring to. Do you honestly think professionals who shoot fashion, advertising and commerce, etc. rent their stuff from Photo Village? I will give you a hint: look for Profoto, Broncolor, Matthews, Hasselblad, etc... Look for gaffer's tape, clamps, backdrops, gels, dulling sprays, foam-cores, Cinefoil, etc. OK, look in the pages of PDN.

    I am not dismissing anything. I am shedding, what I hope, is some light on things Leica may have missed. Leica must get this right from the get-go by placing the S2s where they can help the most. Hell, I may sound adversarial but I am not. Having Preferred Leica Dealers service the professionals is missing the point by a long shot.

    I don't think you shoot for a living, Stuart. Please allow me to talk about what I know about.
    In Chicago, things are a bit friendlier. Pros, consumers get together and rent at Calumet. Some go to Helix. That's about it. No need to quarrel over it.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest Black View Post
    I may as well buy a back-up S2 or switch over to Hasselblad or Canon/Nikon. At least, I know that with those I can run over to my nearest rental house and get them replaced.
    Or just buy one S2 and rent a Canon plus lens to cover the unlikely emergency situation...

    There's no need to be able to get the exact same camera to cover an emergency.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Forrest -- I am shooting for a living and assisting in a foreign country. When I was in the US, I was in school and occasionally assisting. The people I assisted for rented at Calumet, Lens and Repro, Fotocare and Adorama. I certainly don't claim to know everything, but I have a lot of experience with Leica and I am just trying to speculate as to where it will be likely to find them, and to gently suggest that it is better to see how it shakes out rather than freak out about something which might not even be an issue. If it does turn out to be an issue for your particular brand of professional photography (which is?), then there are other cameras that will likely fit the bill. And I certainly have no issue with "allowing [you] to talk about what [you] know about." You seem to be quite capable of that without any interference from me!
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    This will be a continual squabbling match between Leicphiles and others with a varying degree of need.

    Just goes to show you how suspension of reason can grip discussions on both ends of the spectrum

    For example, I think it is amusing to listen to many of the folks who habitually criticized Hasselblad's philosophy of a closed system, but are all atwitter over the S2 ... which redefines a "closed system"

    Guy, God love 'em, is dangerous to listen to ... his knowledge base and enthusiasm are a threat to personal bank accounts world-wide. Yep, a pusher that's also a junkie is a particularly lethal combination ... he sells you on the drug, then shoots up with you.

    I love the caveats, which are transparent as hell ... Guy's on the slipery slope with greasy shoes and a rocket strapped to his back.

    If Guy doesn't have an S2 in future, I'd be shocked silly. Not that he shouldn't, that's his business and no one else's ... but we'll be in for a year of OMGs that make you feel like you're shooting with a Kodak Instamatic with flash cubes by comparison.

    But that's the fun of it, isn't it?

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Don't you just love the smell of cash burning a hole in Guy's pockets in the morning ...

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest Black View Post

    When you are shooting a campaign or a wedding, a 24-hour turnaround time for a loaner is untenable because you have a studio and a whole team waiting like models, talents, stylists, etc. for the former and an angry bride and her mother in the latter and they cost you big dollars. When you need a replacement, you need it NOW. Rental houses are best-placed to see to this need, not Preferred Leica Dealers unless they too wish to be in the rental business. Rental houses keep the cameras checked with a certain number in service at any one time. It is in their business model to keep cameras working and circulating.

    What am I gonna do with Leica Preferred? Hey, Dave, the S2 is toast, FedEx one over to New York/Los Angeles? Sure, Forrest, tomorrow at 9am, see ya. And meanwhile, I am paying to rent Pier 59 for one more day, model/talent for one more day, lights and stuff for one more day, assistants, stylists for one more day (oh, they are booked for another gig tomorrow, shoot, I am screwed, gotta look for another team), the art director needs to make a deadline, his client is fuming mad, etc. The cost to me and my reputation: $10 000, $20 000, $30 000 or more. I may as well buy a back-up S2 or switch over to Hasselblad or Canon/Nikon. At least, I know that with those I can run over to my nearest rental house and get them replaced.

    I think you get my drift.
    Forrest,
    With all due respect, if the shoots are THAT big and THAT important and THAT costly, would you not go to them with at least a spare body or some other viable back-up? I know I would. I have had shutters fail in the middle of a "once in a lifetime" competition for some clients. I simply went back to my truck and got another body, which I always have as back-up. I realize the costs of that gear is not cheap, but losing the entire shoot over a gamble that nothing will happen does not sound attractive to me.

    In that respect, I do think it important that gear be available within a very reasonable turnaround, and it sounds like it might be. We will have to see. In the examples you give, I would have rented the extra body or whatever BEFORE the shoot to make sure no time was lost. The client would be billed for that "insurance", but that is a different approach. Just seems like if business is that good and demanding, which it is not right now, you have the spare gear, or you rent it in advance to cover things as needed. Now, if they all crap out in a catastrophic failure or something, you still reach in to the bag and pull out a DSLR, or your planner to schedule a reshoot if possible.

    Sorry if that sounds out of place, but your scenario description sounded a bit extreme in its unpreparedness to me. If stuff is THAT critical you go in prepared, rather than fret over what is now an unknown recovery plan.

    LJ

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    For example, I think it is amusing to listen to many of the folks who habitually criticized Hasselblad's philosophy of a closed system, but are all atwitter over the S2 ... which redefines a "closed system"
    The S2 redefining "closed" is quite an exaggeration. They are simply closed, just like Canon and Nikon.

    Anyway, the problem is not with Hasselblad *being* closed. It is with them *going* closed, after years of selling H1 and H2 cameras to Phase One owners, for example. The real failure here is to sell the system as open and then go closed.

    In the end, the Hasselblad H3DII is probably the best system out there right now, and the price is right, but the massive betrayal of trust must have left many Phase One/H2 owners fuming. As far as I understand it, the H2 is still the most common MF body in rental shops, in spite of the existence of the H3D and H3DII for a long time now.

    The second part of the problem is that the H2F is the only way to shoot film with a new Hasselblad, yet it doesn't allow backs, except the massively overpriced CF series (at least until recently). If you have an H3D and want to shoot film, you have to buy another body. They are so busy protecting their business from all conceivable angles that they are completely forgetting that they are making their customers' lives miserable at the same time.

    Phase One is still trying to figure out how to put backs on the H2F, as far as I know, but I am sure that if they should ever succeed, Hasselblad would immediately update it in an incompatible way.

    The third part of the problem is that there are very many V camera owners who have been begging for a large-square-sensor CFV for years now, yet Hasselblad is just doing their best to kill and bury these awesome old cameras, rather than servicing their decade-long faithful customers. It doesn't even have to be anything special. I am sure that a 48x48mm 22MP or 30MP sensor would satisfy the vast majority of these people.

    In my mind, in spite of the otherwise apparently excellent cameras, this is just way below the belt, and I would not buy one if for no other reason, then this.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Guy,
    Thanks for the updating......keep the thoughts and impressions coming. Some of us are interested and may be making plans and decisions for when this thing comes alive. Lots of unknowns still, but it sounds like either they are talking a good game plan (possibly repeating the wishes/questions of some as probable solution scenarios, though they may not be), but at least it sounds like some thought is going into it. We will argue and discuss all the painful details and unknowns anyway, many of which may change by the time things are released, so present impressions and information is still useful for present discussions and thoughts.

    LJ

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Preferred dealers are really any Leica retailer that fits Leica"s Pro dealer criteria. These outlets will sell the S2 and if you need a loaner than you will work with that dealer and Leica. The dealer actually will handle this warranty service. In short the camera goes down than you contact your dealer and it is handled from there. Rental houses are any rental houses that want to rent the S2 just like they will rent a Elinchrom lighting system. This is no different than any other gear if they carry the S2 than that is one shop you can rent from. Just like renting a Nikon . Samy's is a good example of rental shop that if they want to carry it as a rental than that is there choice. Now a retailer that sells the camera does not have to be a rental house either. David is not a rental house but does sell the S2. But a place like Calumet for example could actually do both sell and also be a rental house .So these can be very separate places. Depending on what that outlet's business model is. Really no different that what is in place today on the rental side just certain dealers that actually support the sale of the S2. A strictly mail order only type business will not be selling the S2. I guess one great way to look at this is the brick and mortar type Leica stores.
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    This will be a continual squabbling match between Leicphiles and others with a varying degree of need.

    Just goes to show you how suspension of reason can grip discussions on both ends of the spectrum

    For example, I think it is amusing to listen to many of the folks who habitually criticized Hasselblad's philosophy of a closed system, but are all atwitter over the S2 ... which redefines a "closed system"

    Guy, God love 'em, is dangerous to listen to ... his knowledge base and enthusiasm are a threat to personal bank accounts world-wide. Yep, a pusher that's also a junkie is a particularly lethal combination ... he sells you on the drug, then shoots up with you.

    I love the caveats, which are transparent as hell ... Guy's on the slipery slope with greasy shoes and a rocket strapped to his back.

    If Guy doesn't have an S2 in future, I'd be shocked silly. Not that he shouldn't, that's his business and no one else's ... but we'll be in for a year of OMGs that make you feel like you're shooting with a Kodak Instamatic with flash cubes by comparison.

    But that's the fun of it, isn't it?
    Price,Price and Price and no hurry to jump off the diving board. This has to make real sense.
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    So, Guy, in your handling of the S2, you talk a bit about its focus and shutter lag. What about over all responsiveness? Were you able to shoot things and look at them on something other than the LCD? Was anything other than ISO 100 available yet? What did that look like?

    Did Leica talk about how their (Metz) flash will work with the S2? How accurate is the TTL part, or is it TTL-like?

    On the lenses, what are their estimates of CS v. CS without the shutter availabilities? Did they have anything other than the earlier prototypes available to test out? The size and handling descriptions sound nice, but it is the optics and how that looks that most of us are more curious about.

    Sorry to pepper with all the questions. Your impressions and recollections of some of this stuff does play into the vicarious experience for some ;-)

    LJ

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Actually, just to clarify, we do rent gear like Nikon, Canon, Avenger, Elincrhom, Profoto, etc. We also have Leica test drive gear.

    We don't have as much rental inventory as a large studio in NYC or even here in Miami, but we do a pretty steady rental business to local pros and amateurs.

    I do plan on renting the S2 and S-system lenses. We are in a major fashion and advertising market, so if the three or four major rental studios don't carry it (which I'm sure they will), then we will fill the gap. So, Forrest, if you were shooting here in Miami, I'd have you covered. In fact, I'd drive to your shoot to hand deliver you a replacement myself within an hour.

    In any of the major photo markets there should be solid representation and support from larger dealers and rental studios alike. Most rental houses don't offer support and actually buy their gear from dealers, not direct. When a Phase back breaks, they call up their dealer. I expect the same situation with the S2.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    The S2 redefining "closed" is quite an exaggeration. They are simply closed, just like Canon and Nikon.

    Anyway, the problem is not with Hasselblad *being* closed. It is with them *going* closed, after years of selling H1 and H2 cameras to Phase One owners, for example. The real failure here is to sell the system as open and then go closed.

    In the end, the Hasselblad H3DII is probably the best system out there right now, and the price is right, but the massive betrayal of trust must have left many Phase One/H2 owners fuming. As far as I understand it, the H2 is still the most common MF body in rental shops, in spite of the existence of the H3D and H3DII for a long time now.

    The second part of the problem is that the H2F is the only way to shoot film with a new Hasselblad, yet it doesn't allow backs, except the massively overpriced CF series (at least until recently). If you have an H3D and want to shoot film, you have to buy another body. They are so busy protecting their business from all conceivable angles that they are completely forgetting that they are making their customers' lives miserable at the same time.

    Phase One is still trying to figure out how to put backs on the H2F, as far as I know, but I am sure that if they should ever succeed, Hasselblad would immediately update it in an incompatible way.

    The third part of the problem is that there are very many V camera owners who have been begging for a large-square-sensor CFV for years now, yet Hasselblad is just doing their best to kill and bury these awesome old cameras, rather than servicing their decade-long faithful customers. It doesn't even have to be anything special. I am sure that a 48x48mm 22MP or 30MP sensor would satisfy the vast majority of these people.

    In my mind, in spite of the otherwise apparently excellent cameras, this is just way below the belt, and I would not buy one if for no other reason, then this.
    You actually make my point exactly. Why would Hasselblad ... a digital back maker that also makes cameras ... want to sell Phase One backs? Who cares if H1/2 Phase One users are pissed? Not me. Not Hasselblad I'll bet ... because they did nothing for Hasselbald's survival or prosperity. I'm sorry, but it's a ludicrous argument wracked with emotional vagueness. I also wonder at the reference to over-priced CF backs since they have always been the same price or less than any comparable Phase One unit, and can be used on any camera you wish without the unit going bye-bye or paying a mount change fee. Now, it's for sure that the CF-II is less expensive.

    RE: the S2 redefining "closed" ... Canon and Nikon are not Medium Format systems ... just in case you didn't realize that ... it's an apples to watermelons analogy

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    There are a few cases (one I can think of) of a boutique product making inroads-Briese lighting-I don't know of anyone buying Briese HMI but you can rent it and lots of very high end pros do and film as well. There are outlets in LA and NY and of course in Germany. Rent the stuff in Paris and a guy gets into a Mercedes panel van in Berlin and starts a long drive...with spares.

    Most of the rental houses in NY afaik just buy the gear (lease) from their dealer and stock as much of it as they need to service rental. It gets turned over when new products become available. Fotocare, Trec, BrieseNY, etc. Then you have your more entry-level friendly calumet, adorama, lens&repro. As friendly as the guys are at photovillage, they are not set up to be a "rental house" either by location, gear or I suspect inclination.

    As long as the S2 is available from a couple of outlets, Trec, FC, Briese for example, it would achieve sufficient traction/support in rental. And these days in the nY market owning a camera is really not an issue. I know it is different in other parts of the country.

    If the tethered support is good I can see this camera being the must-have for fashion shooters mainly because it is so boutique, like Briese, for example. Well known only in the stratosphere.

    IMO Leica needs to do some outreach also to extend it's rep downward to emerging photographers, mamiya seems to have always done this well through MAC america. Get some new shooters using a product and overturn the old order. This is how the RZ and M7 came to be the dominant mf solution over Hassy, by aggressive pricing, buy-backs, and aggressive financing solutions.

    ...and right there I have contradicted myself

    but the point is, new market penetration and seeing behind the scenes videos of mert&marcus, etc shooting fashion for W with the S2-it becomes what everyone has to have.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Leica would be wise to hold seminars for assistants and digital capture techs ... they're the ones that need to know how the damned thing works ... LOL!

    Create a buzz there and the pros who don't spend their lives on forums like this will hear about it.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Guy, Keep the info on the S2 coming, i like your way of covering it, like i do the Farkas covering.

    The S2 will be presented here in The Netherlands on Tuesday March 10 during a professional imaging show, and yes i will be there.


    Jan R.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Actually, just to clarify, we do rent gear like Nikon, Canon, Avenger, Elincrhom, Profoto, etc. We also have Leica test drive gear.

    We don't have as much rental inventory as a large studio in NYC or even here in Miami, but we do a pretty steady rental business to local pros and amateurs.

    I do plan on renting the S2 and S-system lenses. We are in a major fashion and advertising market, so if the three or four major rental studios don't carry it (which I'm sure they will), then we will fill the gap. So, Forrest, if you were shooting here in Miami, I'd have you covered. In fact, I'd drive to your shoot to hand deliver you a replacement myself within an hour.

    In any of the major photo markets there should be solid representation and support from larger dealers and rental studios alike. Most rental houses don't offer support and actually buy their gear from dealers, not direct. When a Phase back breaks, they call up their dealer. I expect the same situation with the S2.

    David
    Thanks David for reminding me on your rental business. Was trying to separate this out to some degree but bottom line any rental house that wants to buy the S2 and use that for rentals can do that. They would buy from the Leica sales reps usually in that case.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    So, Guy, in your handling of the S2, you talk a bit about its focus and shutter lag. What about over all responsiveness? Were you able to shoot things and look at them on something other than the LCD? Was anything other than ISO 100 available yet? What did that look like?

    Did Leica talk about how their (Metz) flash will work with the S2? How accurate is the TTL part, or is it TTL-like?

    On the lenses, what are their estimates of CS v. CS without the shutter availabilities? Did they have anything other than the earlier prototypes available to test out? The size and handling descriptions sound nice, but it is the optics and how that looks that most of us are more curious about.

    Sorry to pepper with all the questions. Your impressions and recollections of some of this stuff does play into the vicarious experience for some ;-)

    LJ
    No nothing outside the normal LCD and i will start a new post of the rest here so I can transfer that to the LUF as well. I am having major MBP battery issue and lost 4 posts already and waiting for the Apple store to open to replace the battery. It's almost 2 years old and pretty well shot
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Thanks for your impressions Guy... sounds like a winner for my non-professional needs. Great news for me that David F will be renting them locally so I can get a chance to try before I buy...

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Who cares if H1/2 Phase One users are pissed? Not me. Not Hasselblad I'll bet ... because they did nothing for Hasselbald's survival or prosperity.
    I think you just made my point. Hasselblad doesn't care that they screwed over H1/H2 users, because they only bought cameras from Hasselblad, not backs. I am sorry, but a camera is also a product. They should have thought this out ahead of time.

    I'm sorry, but it's a ludicrous argument wracked with emotional vagueness.
    Sure, but such is the human condition. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, can't get fooled again Or even better, once burned, twice shy. I am sure there are a number of people in the Mamiya or Phase camps who would never return to Hasselblad because their trust was reamed once over by Hasselblad.

    I also wonder at the reference to over-priced CF backs since they have always been the same price or less than any comparable Phase One unit, and can be used on any camera you wish without the unit going bye-bye or paying a mount change fee. Now, it's for sure that the CF-II is less expensive.
    Here I have to plead ignorance. Whenever I have looked for CF/CFII prices, they have been very high. Where should I look to get a better idea? Let's say I am in the market for a 39MP back. Where can I fairly compare Phase One P45+, H3DII-39 and CFII-39 prices?

    RE: the S2 redefining "closed" ... Canon and Nikon are not Medium Format systems ... just in case you didn't realize that ... it's an apples to watermelons analogy
    I am aware of that. Leica is positioning themselves on the threshold between the two camps, and by not selling backs and bodies separately (which is sure to save a lot of development cost; maybe even enough to cover the difference in cost between a back and an S-system body upgrade...), they default to the closed camp. Whatever. I have no problem with someone being open or closed. It is just the going from open to closed case which stings.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    No nothing outside the normal LCD and i will start a new post of the rest here so I can transfer that to the LUF as well. I am having major MBP battery issue and lost 4 posts already and waiting for the Apple store to open to replace the battery. It's almost 2 years old and pretty well shot
    Thanks, Guy. Looking forward to your other comments and stuff.

    Sorry to hear about your MBP battery issues. Rest assured, you are not alone there. I too am on my way to replace the battery for mine. Charge meter says 100%, pull the plug and instant shutdown in 10 minutes or less. Not good. There is a whole ugly community of threads about this on the Apple Discussion Forum.....nasty issue. Whatever battery you buy, it will NOT last very long, regardless of how careful you are with cycling it (weekly in some cases), and other tricks many of us have learned from camera gear. The batteries for these older MBPs just suck

    LJ

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Lenses and this is the post I lost. At release there are 3 CS lenses ( central shutter/Leaf shutter) that will hit the streets the 70,120 macro and 180 than shortly a 35mm CS lens than they will start with release of the FP lenses ( focal Plane) which without the CS shutter will be a little less costly to us. So the 24 and 30mm shift will be FP lenses and than a interesting twist here and great idea. Leica say with the 180CS lens will also come out with a 180mm FP lens . So the buyer will have a choice of either going CS or FP lenses on what there needs maybe. Thisis a great way to save money. Some folks may only 1 or 2 CS lenses in there kits and the rest FP lenses so this will save them some money on purchase. Leica has thought through on the cost savings issue. Sapphire glass and non Sapphire glass for example. Also there was a working 180mm at the demo and I did play with that and it was very sharp on the LCD screen.

    Also another note. It is at least figured to do a good ISO 800 and a great chance at 1600 as well with full resolution of the sensor. Leica like the Phase P65 Plus with sensor plus can bin down the resolution to give a smaller file and better ISO levels. Same here with the S2 and that is a 9.3 mpx binning and estimates are ISO 3200 or better . Now don't get all excited because until the final firmware and files are seen and tested this is still a question mark on true ISO values and what is great and what is noisy. Now being a MF shooter and also CCD sensors for the last 5 or 6 years pushing a CCD sensor over 1600 is a wet dream. Cmos different story but CCD and Kodak this one is tough. The only CCD Kodak is the P30 plus at 1600 and the Hassy H31 which just got upgraded to 1600. Now getting past 1600 or a amazing 1600 is a tall order. This is where i say show me the money. Not that I doubt Leica i doubt the technology to get there and also we all have a different what is a great looking ISO 1600 in our heads. This is the reality check
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I am having major MBP battery issue and lost 4 posts already and waiting for the Apple store to open to replace the battery. It's almost 2 years old and pretty well shot
    With all those lights in Vegas, there isn't a place to plug into AC

    Keep up the posting and post some pictures if you get a chance.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    RE: the S2 redefining "closed" ... Canon and Nikon are not Medium Format systems ... just in case you didn't realize that ... it's an apples to watermelons analogy
    But maybe we should be asking why we treat MF differently than 35mm DSLRs. I think this is what Leica started asking.

    The idea of a digital back came about because there was a large installed base of MF shooters with extensive (and expensive) Hassy V, Mamiya 645, Contax 645, etc. systems. The very first backs were scanning backs like Better Light, then tethered only backs with no LCD like the Phase H series. Progress in this realm has been historically slow versus the relatively quick rise of the DSLR. Even an early DSLR like the Kodak DCS 620 (c. 1996) had internal processing, instant capture, on-board storage, and an LCD. Sure, it was a 6MP 1.5x crop camera that cost $30K at the time, but the technology that supported the sensor was more cutting edge than scanning backs that could only shoot still life with constant light sources. Players like Imacon, Phase One, Leaf, and Jenoptik did start to step it up and offer more of the DSLR-like convenience over time. How long did it take Imacon to offer CF storage instead of the Image Bank HD? Or why are we only getting half-usable LCD screens only in the last year? Why do some of the latest backs show hourglasses instead of images when you zoom in? Excuses are made all the time for lack of features or speed on these systems that cost in excess of $30K.

    Without a doubt, MF backs have always offered a quality advantage over DX and FX DSLRs with larger sensors. But this came with a sacrifice in speed, simplicity, convenience, and ISO range. Why does it have to? The Hassy H3D tries to address this, but only gets some of the way there.

    Ok so here's my question:

    Do we need separate backs if one integrated system can do what we need it to do? Yes, I get the tech camera argument. Maybe we have a disproportionate amount of tech camera shooters here on this forum, but look at the professional market as a whole. 95%+ of pro shooters these days will never touch a tech camera. To say that the S2 is "non-starter" because it can't be mounted on a tech camera for 5% of the market is a bit odd to me. Does having a removable back protect your investment? The camera is the least expensive part of any of these systems today. And, the back is what becomes obsolete and depreciates the most. With a removable digital back, weather sealing is an impossibility. So many here complained that the M8 wasn't weather sealed, as this was a "pro requirement." So, Leica makes the first sealed MF camera and everyone complains that you can't remove the back, without wondering why this was never a "requirement" for MF. The S2 image processing/review is as fast as a 1DsIII or D3x. Why aren't other MF systems of the same resolution as fast? Why should the UI be so clunky on some of these systems, like not being able to set a preset WB in K before you shoot? Or easily set custom camera functions?

    By making a closed system, or shall we say an fully integrated system, Leica is able to offer real advantages to what exists in the marketplace. They can make a camera that is smaller, faster, and (wait for it) higher quality than what exists today. As an optics company they will continually push the bounds of what is possible or "normal" in MF lenses. There aren't any of these excuses that are thrown around so casually like "Who cares if it sucks wide-open, or even stopped down two stops. It's MF, so you're going to shoot at f/11 anyway," or "Who cares if it has ghastly distortion through the viewfinder. The software will fix most of that." At the demo yesterday morning, Stephan had to repeat a few times that any program that can read DNG can convert the RAW files because Leica corrects the image in the lens, not in dedicated software. As it should be! And with a closed system, you don't have interface or communication issues as I've personally witnessed at demo road shows on more than one occasion. No separate camera and back f/w updates and compatibility issues. And, the camera is just simple to use. You turn it on and less than a third of a second later you shoot. That's it. Why is simple bad?

    Sorry for the long oration here, but I just don't get it. If something is better, it just is. Maybe it's time to move forward from the digital back paradigm.

    David
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Thanks, Guy. Looking forward to your other comments and stuff.

    Sorry to hear about your MBP battery issues. Rest assured, you are not alone there. I too am on my way to replace the battery for mine. Charge meter says 100%, pull the plug and instant shutdown in 10 minutes or less. Not good. There is a whole ugly community of threads about this on the Apple Discussion Forum.....nasty issue. Whatever battery you buy, it will NOT last very long, regardless of how careful you are with cycling it (weekly in some cases), and other tricks many of us have learned from camera gear. The batteries for these older MBPs just suck

    LJ
    Exactly the issue LJ. Not real happy but I am about 300 yards from a new battery in a 1/2 hour Sometimes you just don't screw around and just get a new one. Love to update the laptop itself but not right now
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Sometimes you just don't screw around and just get a new one.
    Hi my friend, will this be your motto when the S2 becomes available for purchase, hopefully this summer?

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    But maybe we should be asking why we treat MF differently than 35mm DSLRs. I think this is what Leica started asking.

    The idea of a digital back came about because there was a large installed base of MF shooters with extensive (and expensive) Hassy V, Mamiya 645, Contax 645, etc. systems. The very first backs were scanning backs like Better Light, then tethered only backs with no LCD like the Phase H series. Progress in this realm has been historically slow versus the relatively quick rise of the DSLR. Even an early DSLR like the Kodak DCS 620 (c. 1996) had internal processing, instant capture, on-board storage, and an LCD. Sure, it was a 6MP 1.5x crop camera that cost $30K at the time, but the technology that supported the sensor was more cutting edge than scanning backs that could only shoot still life with constant light sources. Players like Imacon, Phase One, Leaf, and Jenoptik did start to step it up and offer more of the DSLR-like convenience over time. How long did it take Imacon to offer CF storage instead of the Image Bank HD? Or why are we only getting half-usable LCD screens only in the last year? Why do some of the latest backs show hourglasses instead of images when you zoom in? Excuses are made all the time for lack of features or speed on these systems that cost in excess of $30K.

    Without a doubt, MF backs have always offered a quality advantage over DX and FX DSLRs with larger sensors. But this came with a sacrifice in speed, simplicity, convenience, and ISO range. Why does it have to? The Hassy H3D tries to address this, but only gets some of the way there.

    Ok so here's my question:

    Do we need separate backs if one integrated system can do what we need it to do? Yes, I get the tech camera argument. Maybe we have a disproportionate amount of tech camera shooters here on this forum, but look at the professional market as a whole. 95%+ of pro shooters these days will never touch a tech camera. To say that the S2 is "non-starter" because it can't be mounted on a tech camera for 5% of the market is a bit odd to me. Does having a removable back protect your investment? The camera is the least expensive part of any of these systems today. And, the back is what becomes obsolete and depreciates the most. With a removable digital back, weather sealing is an impossibility. So many here complained that the M8 wasn't weather sealed, as this was a "pro requirement." So, Leica makes the first sealed MF camera and everyone complains that you can't remove the back, without wondering why this was never a "requirement" for MF. The S2 image processing/review is as fast as a 1DsIII or D3x. Why aren't other MF systems of the same resolution as fast? Why should the UI be so clunky on some of these systems, like not being able to set a preset WB in K before you shoot? Or easily set custom camera functions?

    By making a closed system, or shall we say an fully integrated system, Leica is able to offer real advantages to what exists in the marketplace. They can make a camera that is smaller, faster, and (wait for it) higher quality than what exists today. As an optics company they will continually push the bounds of what is possible or "normal" in MF lenses. There aren't any of these excuses that are thrown around so casually like "Who cares if it sucks wide-open, or even stopped down two stops. It's MF, so you're going to shoot at f/11 anyway," or "Who cares if it has ghastly distortion through the viewfinder. The software will fix most of that." At the demo yesterday morning, Stephan had to repeat a few times that any program that can read DNG can convert the RAW files because Leica corrects the image in the lens, not in dedicated software. As it should be! And with a closed system, you don't have interface or communication issues as I've personally witnessed at demo road shows on more than one occasion. No separate camera and back f/w updates and compatibility issues. And, the camera is just simple to use. You turn it on and less than a third of a second later you shoot. That's it. Why is simple bad?

    Sorry for the long oration here, but I just don't get it. If something is better, it just is. Maybe it's time to move forward from the digital back paradigm.

    David
    This one is like a tennis match. And the ball will bounce back and forth all day long until the skin falls off. I see both sides of this match all too clearly and both sides have great serves as they say. I tend to look at this in a way that I am buying a bigger D3X and it is what it is and no way to take it apart and do something different with it. The separate back has two advantages that we can't take away from it either. It is a integrated system and a detachable one as well . Plus the the fact you can take for example all 4 phase backs and use it on one body for different types of shooting. The P30 plus is the fashion back as well as the P21 plus. The P65 is the landscape back with great amount of detail. The P45plus can go up to a hour with exposure and so on, so this is a very powerful setup in it's own right. Not to mention I can take my P25 Plus ( had to put this in somewhere. LOL) and put it on any tech camera i have and they fall into view camera and shifting camera's. The S2 or Nikon/Canon DSLR style cannot do this . Let's also remember the S2 is the overgrown DSLR style which is great. And certainly from what I saw a great speed advantage over what i shoot today. BTW just using the Phase as a example same applies to Leaf/Sinar and Hassy backs as well. Just easier for me to talk Phase because I know all the backs, anyway all this is important to you as the shooter and comes right down to the bottom line . It is what you shoot that will determine this , plain and simple and no getting around it either way. The S2 has it's place but can't do this or that and vise versa on the MF backs.

    This unfortunately turns us into a either or situation and not a combined one. As of this writing i cannot keep up with the speed of the S2 or D3X ( I simply am using the D3 as a DSLR style in there like the S2 for better understanding) with my MF system but in a lot of ways I may need to or don't need to have that speed. We come down to choice . It is obvious that you have to analyze both types and make a cal with your buying dollars and your needs. I really think it just gets down to this and the S2 does bring in some fresh air and that is good. The whole idea here is to figure out through our talks on this what will work the best and also knowing exactly what is out there to make good buying decisions. I clearly see a black and white and than some grey area too and that is what we need to figure out in our heads. .
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Do you have AppleCare, Guy? I get my batteries replaced under the warranty when they act up. That won't help you until you get home and want to fuss with it, so buying a new one now becomes a spare. But if you're having problems with your original and it's covered by AppleCare you may get a new one.

    Apple also has some additional guidelines for replacing batteries out of warranty which is affected by number of cycles / charge capacity ratio or similar. (Though two years may be a reach for one with an ordinary warranty.)

    Just a thought.

    Good luck.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Regardless of which way the S2's fate falls, the longer it is a presence (or worst case an intended presence) in the market, as a truly 'clean slate' kit, the more it will hopefully push other MFDB and (to a degree) DSLR makers to truly innovate beyond the more MPs dogma.

    As in Dale's very good comments - there is NO reason why current MFDBs, the kits that could use them the most (and given their snack bracket) should have some of the worst (in body) review interfaces among various upper-end digital solutions. Easy choice of FL or CS shutter capability, true weather proofing, down-sizing of form factors, etc., etc.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Sorry for the long oration here, but I just don't get it. If something is better, it just is. Maybe it's time to move forward from the digital back paradigm.

    David
    Thank you David - I excellent post . . . .
    But then, I'm not professional and I havent invested $xx,000 on an MF system either. (so what would I know)

    I was very sceptical about the S2 when the rumours started, but I'm impressed now.

    One thing I'm pretty sure of, is that if the S2 does come up with the goods from an IQ point of view, and it's reasonably reliable, then it will sell, however grumpy everyone might be about it.

    It won't hurt it that it's comprehensible - I don't suppose it'll be much damaged by being so beautifully designed either.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Heading home and will continue on but this one will take a lot of thought and consideration. Honestly I am extremely worried on how this will be priced out, other than that it seems very solid as it is today but there are many factors that one has to consider. It's not like going mail order on a 5 body and I think we really have to keep that in mind. This is a major system purchase and will be the primary tool, so it has to make a whole bunch of sense. I am glad though this is a option given what has been going on lately in MF and in 35mm. Just needs to fit in like anything else in your kit
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    I would like to hear from the others that previewed the S2 as well. It was very nice of Leica to extend an invitation to their everyday customers. They (Leica) have shown that they listen to their users and while most agree with their decisions, will always have detractors. This is not a platform for everyone, and I do not believe that they meant it to be the only platform that you will ever buy for your imaging needs. A look in my wife's closet proves that this concept also applies to handbags and shoes!

    I for one, am interested in the S2 - more curious than serious about spending the money to get it.
    Al Tanabe my website https://www.altanabe.com

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Reading through all of this - and BTW many thanks to all of you who share their practical experience here - I still do not know if this S System is the right thing.

    1) If I need real high quality and large sensor size there is MF - for me this is the Hasselblad H system - period. And you can get 50MP and 60MP already today.

    2) Concentrating on landscapes and large printouts I need rather larger sensors and higher MP numbers - so I feel a bit limited with the slightly smaller S2 sensor.

    3) If I really need speed I go with a 35mm DSLR either Nikon or Canon, no other vendor is coming close to high speed offered there

    So I feel this S System is a bit limiting in terms of future evolution. No doubt the Leica glass will be top and will be better than many other vendor's lenses, but there are so many IFs and THENs - I am not sure what I really should think.

    One thing is clear to me, as I am still before buying an MF system, I will look very carefully into what I buy and what vendor I rely on. And whic vendor will finally get my money. Leica has not such a great reputation in digital and in customer service built up over the last years (unfortunately one must say decades). On the other side Hasselblad has really developed a great reputation since they brought the H System to market some 4-5 years ago. Which I could already test is close to perfection today - I would say. And also their glass is perfect, no doubt. The system is perfectly rounded up and fitting together.

    So we will see, but in any case I wish Leica all the best with that system. And never say never again - if the S System really convinces me and proves "enough" for my demands, it might still happen ....

  39. #39
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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Well, if you have very high speed needs AND very high resolution needs, then I would say you are not the kind of customer Leica is looking for. They are looking for people who feel quality-constrained with 35mm and speed/flexibility-constrained with regular MF cameras. The S2 offers an interesting compromise for them.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Guy / David

    Thank you for the info to date. Now I gotta ask, did you get to see any full resolution images (printed or on screen) from the S2? I presume the answer is no since there has been on discussion about it, but I figured I would wishfully ask anyway.

    It is interesting to read everyone's thoughts, concerns, complaints, comparisons, what-ifs, etc. with regards to the S2 system and all of its trappings. I think the bottom line is image quality, performance, and price. The other stuff won't affect sales near as much.

    Mark

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ... Guy's on the slippery slope with greasy shoes and a rocket strapped to his back.

    Holly crap-oly!!! You're right -- that is Guy!!! I thought it was Wile E. Coyote.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    No No No. This one i am sitting out until it is out and running than we will see. LOL

    Just don't light that fuse yet
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    No No No. This one i am sitting out until it is out and running than we will see. LOL

    Just don't light that fuse yet
    You already lit it Guy
    resistance is useless

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Yes, but just remember, Guy does not go down the slippery slope alone!!! He may often be first (and sometimes head first ), but his enthusiasm and professionalism will lead the way so beware how you tread!!!!!

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Oh, I have the S2 on my "watch list", but it will be 6mos to a year after they ship, and after they have some decent wides, before I would consider that much new gear.
    I would also need a reason to make the move, I mean a REAL reason.
    -bob
    Last edited by Bob; 7th March 2009 at 04:00.

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Some more thoughts i was saving but maybe a good time to talk about this. If you look up the definition of DSLR than you will realize this is exactly what the S2 is but with a fur coat on it. let me explain this , It is basically a D3x only with a lot more punch to it. Again just using the D3x for examples. If you are a DSLR shooter than going to a S2 will give you the same style of shooting and actually no different it is exactly the same in many many ways. Now the S2 has some big advantages over the DSLR out there first off nothing will touch it with image quality. You can argue this one forever but the fact is nothing in a DSLR package will match it and I will explain this. but first this is a Leica built camera so the build quality is outstanding with weather sealing , great optics and extremely fast on all counts but slower at FPS which stands to reason punching 37 mpx through a pipeline is much harder than 24 mpx. That is a given. Now i won't go into every detail that David has already covered and actually trying to write this different than he has written the blog with more tech details. He knows them much better than I do.

    But I like to give the down and dirty common sense stuff. Now we all know and this battle has going on forever the bigger the better usually wins the battle in photography. Film , Digital there is no difference size matters. The S2 is a 37 mpx sensor that is obviously bigger than 35mm Full Frame and this sensor is very very close to Kodaks Sensor in the Phase P30 plus and Hassy H3 31 and several others that use this sensor . It is 6.8 microns and the S2 is 6 . Now I am going to use Phase as a example because i have shot and tested every back they own and I know the differences very well between them and given this S2 sensor and micron size this will be equal to or better than the P30 plus back , It is smaller but it does pack more MPX in the 6 micron and i tend to think this will be very equal to each other and plus or minus too. The P30 plus is a great back and not much can touch it but it does have micro lenses like the S2 does so they are pretty close to being on equal footing here. The bigger backs like the P45 plus/Hassy 39 backs are all 39mpx 6.8 micron backs and extremely good with amazing detail in them . Than the P65 plus and Hassy 50 are much bigger backs and pack a wallop of detail. The point here is the S2 will compare very well with there cousins in the MF market with 12 stops of DR and 14 bit ad converter to 16 bit. Frankly this maybe the least area of concern for me . I know the S2 will perform really well and I also know it will kill and 35mm DSLR out there in the image dept.. But for the Nikon /Canon guy out there wanting more mojo in there files than the S2 will be the answer to that and it will compare very well to it's MF cousins in around the same range of sensor and size even though it is smaller it will still be on those levels. What is not is a MF back that is different by definition and we have to look at that like I was mentioning it earlier. Bottom line you want the absolute most detail that is possible the S2 is not it. The P65 or Hassy 50 with a tech camera bolting on some tech lenses is the answer but it will compare well with the lessor backs than these monsters. We have to remember the intended purpose of the S2 and what it is aimed at and that is Fashion, weddings , PR to some degree and to get the best image you can from a DSLR which by definition is a Digital Single lens Reflex and exactly how I see this camera. It will pretty much bury anything in a DSLR arena and compare to the MF cousins in it's range.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Okay off for some rest. Beat up
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Wait one more comment. I am still worried how they will price this . I will mostly likely say this again too. This right now is a BIG issue given what is going on in the world and the work that seems to be sliding away for many folks of all walks of life.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Guy,
    I get maybe 10 good shots a year. If I would like to have less than $2000 equipment cost per good shot as a goal.
    how many years would I need to keep an S2 kit with all the trimmings?
    -bob

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    Re: S2 and my impressions.

    Guy, I think that the S2 IQ will not just equal/beat the P30+, but also the P45+. The P65 is a different story....

    The P45+ at 39MP and the S2 at 37.5MP are pretty much a dead heat. Yes, the P45+ sensor is 36x48mm and the S2 is 30x45mm. So the larger sensor has only a 28% larger area than the S2. Remember that the 6um sensor tech in the S2 is the same latest generation that is now going into the H3DII/50/60 and P65+. The CCD in the P45+, while excellent, is now 4 or 5 year-old technology.

    The S2 uses microlenses which are offset as they get towards the edge of the frame (just like the DMR and M8). This is unique to Leica, AFIK and really helps with the performance of wide angle lenses. It also should help improve high ISO performance, along with the Maestro image processor.

    The lenses will be second-to-none, performance-wise. These are optics that can be shot wide-open with little-to-no-sacrifice in quality. Such can not be said of most existing MF lenses, which require stopping down to get to where they need to be. There are, of course, exceptions. But, the Leica S lineup is without flaw. Every single lens is reference-class. If you have a 60 MP back and a not-so-good lens mounted on the front, what is the quality of those pixels? How many here have ever mounted a Leica R lens on a 1DsII/III? Most Canon lenses are not up to the task of resolving 21MP, yet a 30-year old R lens handles it with ease. I would expect the same to happen in MF-land, except the S lenses take the performance of R and M lenses to a whole new level.

    Along those same lines, the S2 is the only camera system that I know of that takes the optical characteristics of the CCD IR cover glass into account when designing the lenses. Insane.

    There is also no play whatsoever in the lens mount or sensor. When dealing at these levels of detail, any weakness in the imaging chain will result in a loss of potential performance. Certain MF cameras are notorious for wiggly lenses. The tolerances are just too tight to have slop.

    So, yeah, I think that the S2, despite a slightly smaller sensor than the P45, will, from a system perspective, beat the P45+/H3DII-39 on several counts of IQ: high ISO performance, dynamic range, per-pixel detail, overall sharpness, micro-contrast, bokeh, and "feel." Not to mention lens specific strengths like lack of CA, vignetting, distortion, field curvature, coma, flare, and ghosting, as well as being able to shoot wide-open and still maintain good contrast and corner sharpness. And just to be 100% clear about this, Leica will not be making S-series lenses available in any mount other than for the S2 (and the future R10 with an electronically coupled adapter). No Leica glass for Mamiya. Sorry.

    David
    David Farkas
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