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X1D, a nice interview but also no AF with HC-lenses...

Christopher

Active member
Hi,

That is almost certainly not the case, as the sensor is capable of delivering full HD at 30 FPS.

The main factor is probably the availability of OLED displays, highest available resolution seems to be SXGA,

Best regards
Erik
Not only that it HAS to do a lot with refresh rate. For me that I like the Leica SL so much not only for the resolution but its fast! A lot faster then most other EVFs. 30fps is just way to slow and feels just digital.
 

CSP

New member
Hi,

Lens sizes and weights matter more than camera weights, at least if you carry more than one lens.

Best regards
Erik
this whole size and weight discussion is over exaggerated and says nothing about usability which is far more important.
 

CSP

New member
in this interview mr Ove Bengtsson also claims "They use the same sensor, so they’ll probably come pretty close in terms of image quality but maybe our quality will be a bit better " haha.. first this seems not to be true but more interesting fuji operates in the bayern colorant business http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/semiconductor_materials/image-sensor-color-mosaic/index.html which likely gives them a kind of advantage when it comes to design and improve image sensors color response but time will tell.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
in this interview mr Ove Bengtsson also claims "They use the same sensor, so they’ll probably come pretty close in terms of image quality but maybe our quality will be a bit better "
It depends on the hands that craft the jewels. It is possible that they apply a special pixie dust. ;)

(Just ignore Fuji saying that it is a new design sensor with offset microlenses.)
 

hcubell

Well-known member
Hi,

Lens sizes and weights matter more than camera weights, at least if you carry more than one lens.

Best regards
Erik
What motivates you and CSP to spend so much time trying to convince photographers who are interested in the X1D that it is a flawed product? It's a mystery (and not a very interesting one). There are MANY cameras out there that I have no interest in, but I could not imagine hanging out in a forum and breathlessly announcing every problem with one of those cameras. Just look at the title of this thread. Moreover, it creates a poisonous atmosphere here that drives away photographers that provide valuable input. That happened with Nick T. It also happened with BCooter over at LuLa. You were involved in both situations.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi Hcubell,

Would you consider acting as a grown up?

All products ever produced have flaws.

Regarding the Hasselblad X1D, I find it a very interesting product with a great prospect for the future, but I see it more as a first version of an ongoing series.

Sharing an interview with the director of technology of Hasselblad is not a great thing. In the interview he states that the adapter for the HC-lenses is manual focus, that has not been discussed before, so it is important info if you plan on using HC lenses.

I have been shooting mirror less for 3-4 years, with probably the same kind of EVF the Hasselblad uses, so I know a few things about manual focusing on EVFs.

Making the point that lens weights matters more than camera body weights is nothing hostile to Hasselblad. It is simply a fact that camera body makes up a very small part of the weight of the system, if you use more than a single lens. I carry something like 15 kg of gear, does it matter if the camera body weighs 200 g more or less.

It is hard to find a full size camera bag that weights below 2 kg. So you add up what you need and +/-200 g may not matter a lot, or it does, depending on the equipment you carry. It is simple as that.

One issue with the X1D is that it was introduced without a clearly defined function set. Personally, I do consider a couple of dozens CDAF points a normal part of the EVF function set. Same applies to magnified LV.

I would also add that I am a bit allergic to marketing hyperboles. I don't particularly appreciate "Hand made in Sweden", especially on a camera that is 90% electronic. Don't forget, the lenses are made in Japan and the Sensor is made in Japan. It may be a nice body milled from a single peace of aluminium in Sweden but the body is the part that has less influence on image quality.

Just to say, BCooter is still posting on LR. I still think we have some good info from Nick T., but if Nick acts as an info channel for Hasselblad he may need to raealize that not everybody shares his opinon.

Best regards
Erik



What motivates you and CSP to spend so much time trying to convince photographers who are interested in the X1D that it is a flawed product? It's a mystery (and not a very interesting one). There are MANY cameras out there that I have no interest in, but I could not imagine hanging out in a forum and breathlessly announcing every problem with one of those cameras. Just look at the title of this thread. Moreover, it creates a poisonous atmosphere here that drives away photographers that provide valuable input. That happened with Nick T. It also happened with BCooter over at LuLa. You were involved in both situations.
 

hcubell

Well-known member
Hi Hcubell,

Would you consider acting as a grown up?

All products ever produced have flaws.

Regarding the Hasselblad X1D, I find it a very interesting product with a great prospect for the future, but I see it more as a first version of an ongoing series.

Sharing an interview with the director of technology of Hasselblad is not a great thing. In the interview he states that the adapter for the HC-lenses is manual focus, that has not been discussed before, so it is important info if you plan on using HC lenses.

I have been shooting mirror less for 3-4 years, with probably the same kind of EVF the Hasselblad uses, so I know a few things about manual focusing on EVFs.

Making the point that lens weights matters more than camera body weights is nothing hostile to Hasselblad. It is simply a fact that camera body makes up a very small part of the weight of the system, if you use more than a single lens. I carry something like 15 kg of gear, does it matter if the camera body weighs 200 g more or less.

It is hard to find a full size camera bag that weights below 2 kg. So you add up what you need and +/-200 g may not matter a lot, or it does, depending on the equipment you carry. It is simple as that.

One issue with the X1D is that it was introduced without a clearly defined function set. Personally, I do consider a couple of dozens CDAF points a normal part of the EVF function set. Same applies to magnified LV.

I would also add that I am a bit allergic to marketing hyperboles. I don't particularly appreciate "Hand made in Sweden", especially on a camera that is 90% electronic. Don't forget, the lenses are made in Japan and the Sensor is made in Japan. It may be a nice body milled from a single peace of aluminium in Sweden but the body is the part that has less influence on image quality.

Just to say, BCooter is still posting on LR. I still think we have some good info from Nick T., but if Nick acts as an info channel for Hasselblad he may need to raealize that not everybody shares his opinon.

Best regards
Erik
You really need to move on. The Get DPI Forums have had a very constructive and respectful tone over the years. Signing your posts "Best Regards" does not fool anyone as to your agenda about the X1D. Perhaps you or CSP can start a Facebook Group or a new, specific thread entitled "Erik and His Friends Who Hate the X1D, Think Nobody Should Buy It, but Still Want to Monopolize the Conversation About It."
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi Hcubell,

You may sort of realize that not everyone of the planet shares your opinion.

Just to say, I don't hate X1D. Just have a different perspective than yours. I am very glad Hasselblad made the bold step to produce an mirrorless system. News from Hasselblad have not been very good the last few years, it seem that there had been some serious doubts about Hasselblad here in Sweden for some time, but it seems that the new management refocuses the company on essentials.

I am a firm believer that the future lies with mirror less systems.

If some product is introduced, I think it is quiten nature to ask the question "What does it bring me", for me I don't feel there is much benefit. Indeed, I am leaving MFD as I can see now.

It is quite interesting that Fuji also introduced an EVF camera based on the same sensor. The Fuji as presented is still a prototype.

Both cameras expand the MFD market and both are offered at slightly above high end 24x36 pricing. Lenses are also priced at high end 24x36 levels.

Than you may ask what benefits 33x44 MFD biring over 24x36? At least the X1D has small lenses. With DSLRS high performance often pairs with large aperture. So, portability may be an advantage. Again, depending on needs.

I shoot everything from 16mm to 400mm, so the X1D cannot replace my 24x36 equipment. Indeed, it has been my experience that 24x36. With my admittedly old Hasselblad V and P45+ I found that it is the Hassy that is left behind. So MFD doesn't work for me.

You may be aware that I am using the Sony A7rII with some Canon and Contax lenses, mainly because they allow for tilt and shift work. I have never stated that the A7rII is a great camera, but I state it meets my needs. But I used to say that there is little reason Canon shooters should switch to Sony, except they need to do T&S work with Canon's zoom lenses or need the DR of the Sony sensors, and Canon improves in that area.

I am quite open about issues with the Sony, like lens system, battery life and user interface. On the other hand it is a tool, and you need to learn to make best use of it. Does it turn me into a Sony hater?

Best regards
Erik


You really need to move on. The Get DPI Forums have had a very constructive and respectful tone over the years. Signing your posts "Best Regards" does not fool anyone as to your agenda about the X1D. Perhaps you or CSP can start a Facebook Group or a new, specific thread entitled "Erik and His Friends Who Hate the X1D, Think Nobody Should Buy It, but Still Want to Monopolize the Conversation About It."
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
different systems ? sorry this is ridiculous, the fact is that on the mirrorless technology side hasselblad has a disadvantage and no experience. when "The GFX seems like a clunky computer that takes pictures " than what is the x1d ? a piece of german replica industrial design missing almost every feature you would expect from a modern mirrorless camera but fits perfext to a colllection of murano glass on a stylish book self ?
Hmm... The OP comment you quoted started with "To me..."

In other words we are all entitled to our own opinions, right? For me, so far, I agree with him. I shoot Phase One, Olympus, Sony, Nikon, and have shot far too many cameras to be good for anyone, so I think I have a good grasp on what features I might expect - and the relief of the X1D is the unity and purity of the proposition: sometimes, for some of us, less is more: and that can go for features too...
 
This is pretty shocking. I was pretty taken aback to read that the adapter wouldn't have AF when it was released and that it only may be possible. This was never mentioned before and is a pretty big detail to be left out.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
This is pretty shocking. I was pretty taken aback to read that the adapter wouldn't have AF when it was released and that it only may be possible. This was never mentioned before and is a pretty big detail to be left out.
I have to agree and it does make me wonder why not now.
 

CSP

New member
You really need to move on. The Get DPI Forums have had a very constructive and respectful tone over the years. Signing your posts "Best Regards" does not fool anyone as to your agenda about the X1D. Perhaps you or CSP can start a Facebook Group or a new, specific thread entitled "Erik and His Friends Who Hate the X1D, Think Nobody Should Buy It, but Still Want to Monopolize the Conversation About It."

you like the x1d fine, i only like some aspects but you think i´m not allowed to post my view on this camera ? if you need this warm feeling to feel right and home just go to a hasselblad cheering groupe, nick-t runs one. but maybe your reaction comes from doubts and you are not totally confident that you are on the right side so you don´t want to here things what could place doubts ?
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi Guy,

I would urge to read the interview and not my interpretation with it. My interpretation was anyway that AF is not possible with HC lenses at this stage.

To explain a bit, I have read an interview with the CEO of Sigma and he stated that CDAF needs a different focusing mechanism from PDAF. PDAF estimates the needed focusing distance and turns the focusing ring to that distance. With CDAF it is different, CDAF simply measures contrast and change focusing distance a bit to try again, it oscillates into proper focus. To that focus adjustment needs to be very fast, so most CDAF system don't use helicoid but linear stepper, linear USM or voice coils.

It is possible to use helicoidal focus with CDAF but it tends to be painfully slow. That is part of the reason the A7r was not so good with AF. The A7rII got on sensor phase detection and it is much faster, but it still works best with purpose built lenses.

As lenses built for CDAF do not have helicoids for focusing, it is quite natural that they focus by wire.

DPReview published another interesting interview with Ove Bengtsson:
https://www.dpreview.com/interviews...-with-hasselblad-product-manager-ove-bengtson

This part may deserve a notice:
"As mirrorless cameras are so much easier to make and offer so much more flexibility I wonder if mirrorless is the future for Hasselblad. 'Yes, it probably is, but not for a while. Mirrorless systems can be smaller and lighter, and because they have no internal movement they are more durable and they create less vibration so there is less to disturb image quality. Electronic viewfinders will need to get better though and the AF systems will need to improve to catch up with phase detection systems.'"

This sort of indicates a great future for mirror less MFD, but also indicates some areas that need to improve to get there. No doubt, it will happen but also no doubt it will take some time.

For some reason, Sony ignored PDAF when developing the 44x33 mm sensor. Not very obvious why, as both the A77 and A99 had PDAF on sensor.

My guess is that we are going to see a new generation of MFD sensors in a few years or possibly pretty soon, with on sensor PDAF. It is a pity the technology was not there for the X1D and the GFX. But, there will be an X2D and a GFX2 and it will have PDAF and say 70-100 MP. It is reasonable to expect that 44x33 sensors share base technology with 24x36 and 24x36 has functional PDAF now and around 42 MP. The 44x33 sensors have 70% larger size and upscaling a 42 MP sensor to 44x33 would yield around 70 MP.

Best regards
Erik






I have to agree and it does make me wonder why not now.
 

CSP

New member
Hmm... The OP comment you quoted started with "To me..."

In other words we are all entitled to our own opinions, right? For me, so far, I agree with him. I shoot Phase One, Olympus, Sony, Nikon, and have shot far too many cameras to be good for anyone, so I think I have a good grasp on what features I might expect - and the relief of the X1D is the unity and purity of the proposition: sometimes, for some of us, less is more: and that can go for features too...

sure, but i need cameras most of the time to get a job done and unity and purity is not high on my priority list but usability is even when it comes in an ugly package....
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi Erik,

I sort of have an opinion and I may argue for it. Also, I may say that I have been seriously involved with photography since 1970, or so, and have been using both 24x36 and MF both film and digital.

And yes, I am quite a bit interested in technology and I am a strong believer in science and common sense.

Best regards
Erik

That's quite funny coming from you Erik :)

I like your name btw.
 

tbullock

Member
What motivates you and CSP to spend so much time trying to convince photographers who are interested in the X1D that it is a flawed product? It's a mystery (and not a very interesting one). There are MANY cameras out there that I have no interest in, but I could not imagine hanging out in a forum and breathlessly announcing every problem with one of those cameras. Just look at the title of this thread.
The subject of this thread is really interesting actually, and to many it seems.

As someone who doesn't post much, if at all, but reads an awful lot here, I would like to take the time to say I've found Erik's posts to be earnest and informative. He offers a fairly complete perspective of multiple systems' strengths and weaknesses, and although I don't go into as much detail in my own analysis as he does, many people spending this amount of money on a system should and do consider these things. He has praised features of the X1D, the Sonys, and many other cameras, while logically understanding that all of them have shortcomings. He's also posted links to information, videos, and discussions that others have neglected to. This has proven much more interesting to me than many side discussions or harassment of differing viewpoints.


Moreover, it creates a poisonous atmosphere here that drives away photographers that provide valuable input. That happened with Nick T. It also happened with BCooter over at LuLa. You were involved in both situations
I'm not sure that's fair. From Erik, I see valid points and appropriately logical defense from attacks. I did not find any of these posts to be helpful or in the spirit of an open forum, however:

hcubell said:
Now that you won't be able to AF your vast collection of HC lenses with the X1D, I guess you won't be buying one after all.
hcubell said:
You and the science experiment/internet information regurgitator guy need to get over it.
hcubell said:
You also don't issue spreadsheets announcing all of the reasons why a newly released camera that you were never going to buy doesn't meet your needs.


On a related note, Ming Thein posted a summary here of Photokina discussing in part the implications of increasing parity in image quality among cameras today: "I really don’t see anything fundamentally game changing that might make me break out the wallet and offer significantly better image quality." There's more discussion in the comments too. Of course, he already shoots an H5D, so he's in a different camp than I am. But, I think Erik's posts generally reflect similar views.

I have always assumed that I'd be able to value the medium format experience and final image from 35mm, but with the latest/next 35mm sensors, is there really enough of a difference? What is the actual difference? Are there known or hidden compromises? Are the manufacturers selling a tool worth its cost, or promises and emotions? Might the A7rIII/A9 give us the same quality in an even smaller, lighter, and less expensive form? Should we wait for version 2?

These are important questions to me, and I hope they can continue be discussed here openly.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
The subject of this thread is really interesting actually, and to many it seems.

As someone who doesn't post much, if at all, but reads an awful lot here, I would like to take the time to say I've found Erik's posts to be earnest and informative. He offers a fairly complete perspective of multiple systems' strengths and weaknesses, and although I don't go into as much detail in my own analysis as he does, many people spending this amount of money on a system should and do consider these things. He has praised features of the X1D, the Sonys, and many other cameras, while logically understanding that all of them have shortcomings. He's also posted links to information, videos, and discussions that others have neglected to. This has proven much more interesting to me than many side discussions or harassment of differing viewpoints.



I'm not sure that's fair. From Erik, I see valid points and appropriately logical defense from attacks. I did not find any of these posts to be helpful or in the spirit of an open forum, however:







On a related note, Ming Thein posted a summary here of Photokina discussing in part the implications of increasing parity in image quality among cameras today: "I really don’t see anything fundamentally game changing that might make me break out the wallet and offer significantly better image quality." There's more discussion in the comments too. Of course, he already shoots an H5D, so he's in a different camp than I am. But, I think Erik's posts generally reflect similar views.

I have always assumed that I'd be able to value the medium format experience and final image from 35mm, but with the latest/next 35mm sensors, is there really enough of a difference? What is the actual difference? Are there known or hidden compromises? Are the manufacturers selling a tool worth its cost, or promises and emotions? Might the A7rIII/A9 give us the same quality in an even smaller, lighter, and less expensive form? Should we wait for version 2?

These are important questions to me, and I hope they can continue be discussed here openly.

And they will. Question should always be asked and answered in the most friendly and informative way with a neutral balance even if you really favor one brand. With that said let's get back to normal programming without any personal attacks. That's moderators jobs to deal with. Honestly I'm not finding any question or comment out of bounds.

Honestly these are both very interesting systems we need to embrace that regardless if your choice. I can see buying either way based on what we know today. Heck if I had it my I would like to blend the two together in a way.
 
What motivates you and CSP to spend so much time trying to convince photographers who are interested in the X1D that it is a flawed product? It's a mystery (and not a very interesting one). There are MANY cameras out there that I have no interest in, but I could not imagine hanging out in a forum and breathlessly announcing every problem with one of those cameras. Just look at the title of this thread. Moreover, it creates a poisonous atmosphere here that drives away photographers that provide valuable input. That happened with Nick T. It also happened with BCooter over at LuLa. You were involved in both situations.
A true mystery of the internet which I'm pretty sure I'll never understand. I don't post very often but I've come to enjoy the informative, articulate and, mostly, civil discussions on getdpi for some time. But it gets old quick when conversations become dominated by folks who are obviously never going to buy the camera they are so adamant to post about. I'm intrigued by the X1D because it meets many, but not all, of my needs and might add something to my workflow and my love of photography. So for me constructive posting isn't constantly rehashing the faults of a camera or system, it's finding the strengths and the workarounds that would help me decide if it makes sense for me. Because honestly, once you've worked your way through a few different systems, the faults kind of jump out at you.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Very true some things jump right at you as maybe a issue. .been through many systems so I go in neutral in thought and figure it out. It's just gotta make sense
 
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