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Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

vjbelle

Well-known member
Doug.... how will the rolling shutter affect images in the 10 second to 1 minute range for purposely blurring water and smoothing clouds? I don't have a way of testing this on my own right now otherwise I ask the question.

Thanks.......

Victor
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Doug.... how will the rolling shutter affect images in the 10 second to 1 minute range for purposely blurring water and smoothing clouds? I don't have a way of testing this on my own right now otherwise I ask the question.

Thanks.......

Victor
For a long exposure the "roll" takes about a second to start and stop. In between the entire sensor is exposing continuously and will behave as you normally expect.

So a one minute exposure is around 59 seconds of normal behavior and around 1" of rolling behavior.

Therefore in some specific situations you may wish to physically block the lens for the first second and last second of the exposure - for instance if there are cars with headlines that you want to streak in a long multi-minute exposure.

I'm looking forward to our own tests as well as the tests/images of our clients to help us all understand where the limits are and are not, regarding motion and the ES.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Good looking series of feature updates, look forward to trying them out.

Very happy to see full Electronic Shutter on the IQ100, thought it might mean I could use my Alpa TC/STC/Max without needing to cock the shutter, and it does, kind of, but not for anything moving with what appears to be a strong rolling shutter problem - not surprising given the sensors size/Mp, but that kind of kills silent street work. With anything involving motion you'll still need a regular shutter - lens or focal plane - for that, correct Doug?
As noted in the article movement that does not move across much of the frame is fine - each line reads out very quickly. Only movement that crosses a large part of the frame quickly is problematic. Even then it's really only problematic at short shutter speeds where you are trying to freeze a fast moving object.

On long exposures (e.g. 10") this limitation should be more-or-less moot.

I'm looking forward to our own tests as well as the tests/images of our clients to help us all understand where the limits are and are not, regarding motion and the ES.
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
I took an image of one of the ornamental grass plants on my property. The tops are very delicate and were moving around an inch or more in the almost still conditions. At 1/100 it appeared just as if the image were taken with my copal shutter. Most of the tops were stopped dead and others looked naturally moving. So far I'm real happy.......

Victor
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
Doug.... I do wish you could pass along my vote for retaining the aperture even after the back has been turned off. As it is now it resorts back to 'no aperture' which once again has to be set for the current image. From my end there's no reason to reset that setting since almost all of my images are taken at f11..... set it and forget it.

Victor
 

narikin

New member
If you update the XF with the IQ100 on it, does that upgrade the IQ firmware as well as the camera, or is it 2 upgrade operations needed here? thanks
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
If you update the XF with the IQ100 on it, does that upgrade the IQ firmware as well as the camera, or is it 2 upgrade operations needed here? thanks
Put the IQ on the XF and do the firmware update and everything is handled in one operation.

That's new... previously there were separate installers for different back models, and a separate one from all of those for the bodies. The new method is much easier for both Phase One, the dealer, and the user. One file to rule them all.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Doug.... I do wish you could pass along my vote for retaining the aperture even after the back has been turned off. As it is now it resorts back to 'no aperture' which once again has to be set for the current image. From my end there's no reason to reset that setting since almost all of my images are taken at f11..... set it and forget it.
I will gladly pass along this feedback. It's a good idea.
 

dchew

Well-known member
Doug,
Thanks for the info. I updated my back and giggled like a school kid when I took the first image.

Question: When in ES mode, is the sensor always powered, as in zero latency mode, or does it power up when you go to the "camera" screen where the controls are?

I'm curious what this does with battery life and/or heat vs. normal mode with a technical camera (I use the alpa sync cord so have not been using zero latency).

Dave
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Thanks for the info. I updated my back and giggled like a school kid when I took the first image.
It's weird capturing an image with a 100mp camera without even a whisper of a noise. Right??

Question: When in ES mode, is the sensor always powered, as in zero latency mode, or does it power up when you go to the "camera" screen where the controls are?
I'm almost positive it "wakes up" only when you push the shutter release button. Remember it only takes a few milliseconds to wakeup - the only reason it's necessary with a tech camera and a copal shutter is that otherwise the back has *zero* milliseconds notice, which is too few.

I'm curious what this does with battery life and/or heat vs. normal mode with a technical camera (I use the alpa sync cord so have not been using zero latency).
The short answer is I do not know for sure. From a sensor point of view the battery life should be similar. However, use wise you will have the screen on far more often (since it's the only means by which you can capture an image or adjust shutter speed).
 

dchew

Well-known member
Thanks for the info Doug, makes sense.
It's weird capturing an image with a 100mp camera without even a whisper of a noise. Right??
I'm gonna miss that BZZZZTT sound. Can't they program the back to make that sound, just like a BMW pipes engine noise through its speakers?

Not to mention what's Alpa going to do? I think it was half their brand. They even had it on their website for an annoying several years!

Dave
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I'm gonna miss that BZZZZTT sound. Can't they program the back to make that sound, just like a BMW pipes engine noise through its speakers?
My first "sort of pro" camera was an Olympus E10 that used a rather novel splitter prism rather than a mirror and therefore made no sound. They allowed the selection of several "classic" Olympus cameras to be played over the speaker. :)
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

The limitation here is sweep time. Long sweep time -> high tonal resolution. The IQ3-100MP has very long sweep time but retains tonal resolution. Limiting tonal resolution to 12 bits they could have 16 times shorter sweep time. You gain some and you loose some.

Best regards
Erik



IQ3 100mp only.

Any speed the XF can normally do (e.g. not faster than 1/4000).



Short answer: Yes, 16 bit.
Long answer: All three normal file modes are available (IIQ-L 16 Bit, IIQ-L, IIQ-S). If you select IIQ-L 16 bit that is exactly what you get - the quality of the raw file produced is the same as when using the mechanical shutter.
 
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vjbelle

Well-known member
Thanks for the info Doug, makes sense.


Not to mention what's Alpa going to do? I think it was half their brand. They even had it on their website for an annoying several years!

Dave
I started to think about the FPS and the new 'Half' FPS connected to an electronic shutter....($$$$$$$). This, for sure, has taken some of the air out of Alpa's sails. Thank you Phase......:thumbs:
And..... its only going to get better.:thumbs:

Victor
 

dchew

Well-known member
I started to think about the FPS and the new 'Half' FPS connected to an electronic shutter....($$$$$$$). This, for sure, has taken some of the air out of Alpa's sails. Thank you Phase......:thumbs:
And..... its only going to get better.:thumbs:

Victor
Fire sale...
:)

 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Hi Doug

Maybe I´m slow, but I need an explanation here:

Your article says: all exposure times for normal shots can be used as with normal shutter - down to 1/4000sec.
that would mean one line of the chip gets at least an exposure of 1/4000sec. over a sync time of 1/125sec. - thus the rolling shutter.

But then the Electronic shutter "with flash" has a synctime of 1.3" (or even longer at high Iso ?) which is much longer than a full rolling shutter readout sync from the FPS or the shorter usable exposure times ?

???

And: Congrats to Phase One about the standardized Dark frame ! That is used in astronomy since (many)years and I asked for this since.....(some)years.
This is definitely the right way to do it, timelapse and many, many other things.

So - TIA for an explanation for the flash sync, so I can sort it out technically.

Regards
Stefan
 

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gerald.d

Well-known member
I started to think about the FPS and the new 'Half' FPS connected to an electronic shutter....($$$$$$$). This, for sure, has taken some of the air out of Alpa's sails. Thank you Phase......:thumbs:
And..... its only going to get better.:thumbs:

Victor
How are you going to set aperture on lenses without a manual aperture ring?

It's a bit weird to say this will take "some of the air out of Alpa's sails", when it's pretty obvious the entire point of the Silex (the new "Half" FPS) is to provide a solution for using any lens with this exact upgraded digital back.

Just because the Silex can control an electronic shutter (on the lens side of the camera) doesn't imply you need to use one. It's why the entire solution is modular. It didn't really make sense at Photokina when they were pushing the potential use for video. But now? It's patently clear they knew all about this back well in advance, and have extended the Alpa 12 system to best utilize it.

If your genre of photography is not negatively impacted by the rolling shutter, the addition of the Silex and the electronic lens control basically now means you can use (almost) any lens with a "regular" Alpa camera and the IQ3 100.


Kind regards,


Gerald.

From the Alpa Photokina press release. A photo that was a little puzzling at the time, but now makes total sense -

 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi Stefan,

My take is that sweep time is around 0.65 seconds, that is the back is doing a sweeping reset followed by a sweeping readout making for a virtual slit. But that virtual slit takes around 0.6 seconds to travel over the sensor.

This is probably a limitation of readout speed of the sensor combined with the capability of the ASICs handling the data coming off the chip.

Let's compare this to the A7rII, it has a shutter travel time of 1/12s according to measurements by Jim Kasson: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3885998

We may sort of assume that electronics on the 100 MP Sony sensor are similar to the 42 MP Sony sensor in the A7rII.

The 100 MP sensor has 8708 rows of pixels while the Sony A7rII has 4374. The 100 MP sensor has 16 bit readout while the 42 MP sensor has 14 bit readout. Assuming ramp type converters and similar sampling frequency we would thus have a sweep time of 1/12 * 8708 / 4374 * 4 = 0.66 seconds. So it would be estimated that it takes the shutter 0.66 seconds to open and 0.66 seconds to close. So flash sync would be available at 0.66 * 2 = 1.32 seconds.

Best regards
Erik

Hi Doug

Maybe I´m slow, but I need an explanation here:

Your article says: all exposure times for normal shots can be used as with normal shutter - down to 1/4000sec.
that would mean one line of the chip gets at least an exposure of 1/4000sec. over a sync time of 1/125sec. - thus the rolling shutter.

But then the Electronic shutter "with flash" has a synctime of 1.3" (or even longer at high Iso ?) which is much longer than a full rolling shutter readout sync from the FPS or the shorter usable exposure times ?

???

And: Congrats to Phase One about the standardized Dark frame ! That is used in astronomy since (many)years and I asked for this since.....(some)years.
This is definitely the right way to do it, timelapse and many, many other things.

So - TIA for an explanation for the flash sync, so I can sort it out technically.

Regards
Stefan
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Hi Eric

thanks for the explanation of the linetimes using the Back as a scanner with E-Shutter /per line.

What I still do NOT understand - how is it then possible (as stated) that the shutter does also all shutter times as the normal FPS from 30 to 1/4000 sec ?
I mean the longer ones - OK. But if this Readout can be done in a 1/4000sec with daylight , does this mean the "rolling shutter" at 1/4000 also uses a sync time of 1,3"
if higher ISO even longer ? So let me summarize: I can use shutter speeds shorter than 1.3" but if anything moves within 1.3" the image is unusable ?
So the exposure time is only valuable for sizing the amount of light hitting the sensor, but disfunctional for all moving subjects.
OK that is a funny implementation but I think I got it now.

And finally: a "Flash Sync Time" of 1.3" or 1.6" seems pretty useless to me as I do not know any Flashes that have that long T 0.5 not to speak even of T0.1 ?
Why not call this: permanent lighting only ? The Terminology "Flash Sync" is extremely misleading in this context.

Regards
Stefan
 
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