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The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

Woody Campbell

Workshop Member
Odd that none of us have focused on what may turn out to be the best reason to own an S2: the possibility of adapting a legacy medium format glass to the S2. Because of its shorter-than-MF flange distance most MF glass will be able, at least physically, to be adapted to the S2. Let's review what might be possible:

Hasselblad 2000 glass: this is probably easiest because of the S2's FP shutter. It would be nice is the lens stop down could be linked to the camera but it could also be done manually. A key issue will be whether the S2 provides focus confirm with third party lenses (Nikon does and Canon doesn't - if I ever by another traditional SLR it will be a Nikon).

Hasselblad V. More complicated. The Hasselblad V to H adapter gets you most of the way there - it handles lens cocking for example. An additional adapter would be needed to make the physical connection to the camera. How stable would it be stacking adapters? The lens could be left in B mode and use the FP shutter. More sophisticated would be to trigger the lens off of the S2 sync signal, and more sophisticated yet would be to trigger off of the lens contact signal. There is a lot of work to be done here but the potential market is very large.

Contax 645. I've never shot this system so I don't know what's involved. A lot of interesting glass here so a big incentive to solve the problems.

Others. Bronica? Should be similar to Hasselblad 2000. Fuji?

Lecia R. I don't see how this could work form an infinity focus and image circle standpoint.

Optically the "crop factor" from 645 to Leica S is 1.38. We're in familiar territory here - the crop factor may be all that's necessary to bring much of the legacy MF glass into the digital age by eliminating the outer zones of the MTF charts.

This is a major opportunity for Leica. Witness all of the buzz around the Panasonic G1 and legacy lenses. One of the reasons that the M8 has succeeded is the appeal of legacy and 3rd party glass. It makes the system "open" vis-a-vis its most important element. Critically from Leica's standpoint it permits the S2 to become a "standard platform" for most legacy MF glass, which should dramatically enhance the S2's appeal. Will it adversely impact Leica lens sales? Not really - at least not if they deliver on the MTF charts they've shown us.

Most importantly, for the pro with a gear locker full of Hasselblad lenses the S2 becomes an extension or evolution, rather than a start from scratch. Duct tape solutions are not likely to be of interest to this market segment, so its important to Leica that sophisticated solutions be found - particularly in the Hasselblad V area - which is probably the largest segment of legacy glass. I personally would pay whatever it takes to put a V lens on an S2 body.

So Leica's homework assignment on this is to reach out to Novoflex and share specs and maybe even a prototype. Or do it themselves. Early availability of adapters provides a solution for Leica to the problem of limited choice (at least initially) in Leica S2 lenses.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
+2 . This would make me buy one without a lot of hesitation if I could bolt my Mamiya lenses on it.

No chance was what i was told
 

monza

Active member
So Leica's homework assignment on this is to reach out to Novoflex and share specs and maybe even a prototype. Or do it themselves.
I doubt it will happen, they want to sell new glass.

This will be up to a third party, but the market will be small compared to the consumer adapter market like for the EOS or G1.
 

woodyspedden

New member
+2 . This would make me buy one without a lot of hesitation if I could bolt my Mamiya lenses on it.

No chance was what i was told
Let's face it, leica is a glass company and will be for the forseeable future. The S2 gives them differentiated platform on which to mount what they claim are the best lenses they have ever produced.

Problem with adapted third party lenses is that the image quality may not be sensational compared to the Leica products. Thus the reputation of the S2 system as a whole could be compromised.

JMHO

Woody
 

KurtKamka

Subscriber Member
But, it could help you fill out a line-up with less expensive lenses until the entire line-up is introduced and/or allow you to use less expensive lenses on parts of your lens line-up you don't use as often.

Kurt
 

robsteve

Subscriber
There was also mention of the IR filtering being part of the lens. Third party lenses would not have this IR filtering and you would have to use external IR filters. This then brings up the red/cyan vignetting we experienced in the M8, except there will be no way to fix it except with software like CornerFix.

The offset microlenses also need software correction with some lenses. For example, a few years ago, I demonstrated the difference between shooting a 19mm on the DMR with and without ROM. The file with the ROM had some vignette corrections, including red/cyan like the M8 does, though red/cyan vignette on the file without ROM was not as severe as the M8 shot without a coded lens and an IR filter.

Robert
 

Geoff

Well-known member
Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - a great idea

This is a very clever idea and should be passed along. There are many reasons it makes sense.

First, it takes advantage of the dual shutter mechanisms of the S2, and puts them to "working advantage" - meaning it helps Leica spread its base and sell more cameras. With both focal and leaf shutters, the S2 has the ability to use its focal shutter. Now get it to do something for the system - that is, expand its base. These days this should be more important to Leica as a business than total optical control of all the parts of the system.

Second, it really provides a way for the closets of lenses to find a new modern home. Many lenses are just sitting, with their owners unsure of what to do with them. A single answer (S2 body) with broad flexibility could be a home for these, and not yet another exception. And if you had lenses from Hassy and Mamiya - with one body to take both.... it gets very exciting.

Third, it takes the heat off Leica in having to introduce such a broad range of lenses quickly. They surely will do this eventually, but imagine a buyer having imediate access to another 50+ lenses in the marketplace. That's smart marketing, and almost irresistable. Then the holes in the Leica lens system get filled as Leica has time to fill them. The Rollei 6008 lens group is a perfect example of this - if one looks at the number of lenses it takes to service a committed professional group - its large. And is the number of lenses ever enough? Not to mention that a Leica lens is extremely well made, but is never easily made. Their tolerances are high. If someone offered Leica an opportunity to fit several sets of lenses (guess the number?) to their body immediately, they should seriously consider it.

Fourth, the cost or consequence of this is nominal. The adapters can be made simple or complex (start simple, see what demand is like?), there is precedent for it (Alpa, among others, has all sorts of adapters), and its wonderful PR. Spreads the buzz quickly among Leica's target audience.

As to the critique of "diminished results" and that Leica is an optical company - the camera needs to get out there and be successful, for there to be a company. Anyone using a camera with "third party" lenses is not stopped from buying Leica lenses. If they are in pursuit of the best, they'll pay for it.

Lastly - there is the shifting paradigm that Dale has suggested Leica is pushing - and its getting more credible. Consider this: Leica is suggesting (proposing) that the high-end user really wants the convenience of the 35 mm/DSLR paradigm, improved to the next optical and sensor level. They are proposing the S2 as the cap of that way of working. Their argument (if this is understood correctly) would be that the derivatives of MF, with digital backs, clunky interfaces suffer too many compromises that come from their histories, and that the user really wants an updated camera more akin to a digital Contax 645 than a 500C. And they are probably right.

While this type of shooting isn't my favorite, they have a very good point here. The reference point for today's shooters are 35mm type DSLR's, not the MF cameras of our past.
Integration, simplicity, speed are their requirements.

In the Leica model, one could imagine they are seeing that there is an ever-withering group of MF players playing to an ever-smaller group of pros. With the S2 as their proposal to the DSLR crowd who want more, they have to kep an eye on the Hassy and Mamiya as alternatives....

Now add those lens adapters: and all of a sudden the Leica has all sorts of flexibility and different appeal. It stands out not from the Hassy and Mamiya as to its sheer excellence (which it will), but also for flexibility with its usability with a broad (and possibly cheap) set of alternative lenses.

This may well be the "kick" it needs to get broader market acceptance and give Leica time and money to bring the rest of the lenses along, with future higher speed sensor upgrade.

Geoff
 

robmac

Well-known member
Woody & Rob
-------------

Geoff put it very well. You shoot your S2 with say your Hassy/Mamiya XYZ cause it's what you have (and paid dear for), go (hopefully) "holy crap, I like how this draws (even if no better than your Hassy) I wonder what it would really be like with the Leica glass I saw? I also like the form factor/speed. Maybe I'll buy a CS XYZ - the MTF looks stunning..." Down starts the slippery slope.

As for downgrading the S2 image by using Mamiya glass say - if you're using a 120/4 macro on your S2 you know you won't be getting the optimum for it. Close enough maybe, but not optimum.

IR issue - make IR filters avail with the adapters, possibly as a kit. There are ways around the issue.

That said Leica has a bad case of not invented here and (as per Rob's thoughts) are engineering it (not intentionally) so that use of adapted lenses will not be an easy task for someone.

Let's face it, leica is a glass company and will be for the forseeable future. The S2 gives them differentiated platform on which to mount what they claim are the best lenses they have ever produced.

Problem with adapted third party lenses is that the image quality may not be sensational compared to the Leica products. Thus the reputation of the S2 system as a whole could be compromised.

JMHO

Woody
 
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carstenw

Active member
There was also mention of the IR filtering being part of the lens.
Rob, I am pretty sure that what Leica said was that the IR filter on the sensor was part of the optical equation. In other words, the slight shift which occurs due to the light traversing the filter is calculated to land the light rays in exactly the right place.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Carsten you maybe right they where talking about it but lost my track on it. Maybe David can address this and be more specific.
 

Woody Campbell

Workshop Member
A couple of thoughts.

Apologies to robmac - I started this thread before catching up on the "S2 and my impressions" thread. You get credited as a principal author of this idea.

On image quality, IR and so on: Some lenses will be fabulous (I would guess that the Hasselblad 40mm Distagon is in that category) and many will have issues, but that's really not the point. One of my favorite lenses for the M8 is an adapted CZ 16mm Hologon which has serious color shifts (that defy fixing in Cornerfix) but it also has serious charisma. Longs will have fewer issues than shorts. IR blocking filters come in all sizes.

On reputation: shooting the M8 with an 85mm hexanon or a 12mm cv doesn't seem to have hurt Leica's reputation.
 
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O

Oxide Blu

Guest
... Thus the reputation of the S2 system as a whole could be compromised.

For the reputation to be compromised the S2 would need to first get a foothold in the market. I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon. In the grand scheme of photography, Leica cameras are insignificant, more myth than reality -- more "ooh, ahh" than sales numbers. At the price point being kicked around for the S2 system, in a tanking global economy, I expect sales of the S2 to be insignificant. Successful pro photography is going to be under increasing pressure to reduce their costs -- don't see the S2 fitting in anywhere. Whatever expectations Leica hopes to realize from the S2, I think they have the next 4 to 6 months to realize it. I don't see significant sales of any top-dollar cameras after that -- not for years.
 

woodyspedden

New member
But, it could help you fill out a line-up with less expensive lenses until the entire line-up is introduced and/or allow you to use less expensive lenses on parts of your lens line-up you don't use as often.

Kurt
Fair point Kurt but I just can't see Leica going there (as opposed to whether they should) They plan to have four lenses at introduction and a few more by the end of 2009 and a few more in the first quarter of 2010. So I don't think that lens availability will tilt the deal. Most folks who shoot MFDB don't have more than five or six lenses so within a half year of introduction Leica will be there. I would personally love to see adapters because I have a full complement of V lenses including the 40CFE/IF! I could really benefit from such a program.

Having said all that, I doubt we will see adapters for other brands any time soon. Good grief some of us are still trying to get Leica to allow other brands to be fully compatibile with the M bodies (e.g. allowing manual entry of other brand lens data into the body) They are afraid that mere mortals like us would likely screw it all up.

Woody
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
Carsten you maybe right they where talking about it but lost my track on it. Maybe David can address this and be more specific.
Yes, Carsten is correct. The S2 sensor has a 1mm thick IR cover glass fused to the surface. MFDB sensors have two separate pieces of glass, an IR filter and a protection filter. These pieces of glass shift the light rays striking the sensor. A lens designed to be used on a film camera doesn't correct for this phenomenon, so aberrations will result. The S2 lenses were formulated to account for this. In other words, the ray trace goes all the way from the front element to the sensor, as does the actual MTF result.

As far as the adapter idea... let me address this when I have a little more time. I have someone waiting to see me for a 4 o'clock appointment in the store right now (I'm at work).

David
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Personally, adapted lenses would have a huge appeal to me. If I could bolt on my Zeiss FE glass as well as all the CF optics and use the high focal plane shutter speed .... wahooo! But the body would have to be "affordable" to spring for the novelty of it.

Sadly, Contax lenses and Hassey H/C won't work, the aperture controls are electronic.
 

robmac

Well-known member
No apologies necessary - simply an example of great minds thinking alike. IMHO :ROTFL:

A couple of thoughts.

Apologies to robmac - I started this thread before catching up on the "S2 and my impressions" thread. You get credited as a principal author of this idea.

On image quality, IR and so on: Some lenses will be fabulous (I would guess that the Hasselblad 40mm Distagon is in that category) and many will have issues, but that's really not the point. One of my favorite lenses for the M8 is an adapted CZ 16mm Hologon which has serious color shifts (that defy fixing in Cornerfix) but it also has serious charisma. Longs will have fewer issues than shorts. IR blocking filters come in all sizes.

On reputation: shooting the M8 with an 85mm hexanon or a 12mm cv doesn't seem to have hurt Leica's reputation.
 
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