The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

[LJL]

I am still wrestling with this concept for different reasons. I can understand some folks that have a deep, good lens collection maybe wanting to drop one of those lenses onto an S2, but why, if they already have a body and back, supposedly with a bigger sensor and more flexibility? If it is to "fill in the gaps" or take advantage of the way the other lenses draw, they still may not look as good coming from the S2 if it is "tuned" to produce an image with Leica glass that has been designed for it. I am sure folks will try various adapters and stuff, but not sure that is going to carry the day for many. Giving up a lot of what you might be buying the S2 and lenses for in the first place with respect to AF, electronic aperture, etc., seems less attractive, especially if one already has a camera and back for those lenses.

The flip side of using Leica glass on other bodies I get, but it sounds as though Leica is going to have enough roadblocks there, and the image circle may not work best, and the issue of being able to correct anything with existing software may make it more of a PITA than it is worth. We really will not know until there are lenses in the wild. If Leica does want to maybe use the glass for some future DSLR they may roll out, that would seem a better way to go...maybe, but that will not be free either.

Seems to me if the lenses Leica produces for the S2 system really deliver, and in a very "hands off" way, I think the argument for having the S2 body will be made. Does anybody hope to stick a Leica S2 70mm f2.5 CS/FPS lens onto a 60+MP Hassy or Phase? Really? Guess I must be missing something here.

LJ

 

[ptomsu]

Can you explain why, please? Because Leica won't do it, or because it doesn't have any appeal?

At least for me this has NO appeal at all. But maybe I am a minority out there :angel:

 

[Bernard]

There is no doubt that there will be Hasselblad V adapters, at least from third parties. These adapters will sell quite a few bodies simply because the initial Leica lens line is limited. Leica should encourage this, and even sell their own adapter. People who can afford an S2 will eventually buy Leica lenses, to use leaf shutters, stop-down metering and autofocus. Many will use adapted lenses to tide them over until cashflow and availability improve.

What would be interesting is a Rollei adapter. This would require a chip in the adapter to translate between Leica protocols and Rollei protocols (or even in the S2's firmware).
Rollei's PQS shutters require a lot of current, so it might not be possible at all. Still, it would be a win for Leica if they could pick up F&H's customers.

I really don't think that Leica or anyone else will offer an adapter for the Mamiya/Phase One autofocus lenses, unless Phase One forces the issue. There's bound to be Mamiya manual focus adapters available online if the flange focal distances allow. Those will be more of a curiosity than anything. Pros who haven't upgraded to Mamiya's autofocus glass aren't in the market for new Leica systems.

 

[sandymc]

One of my favorite lenses for the M8 is an adapted CZ 16mm Hologon which has serious color shifts (that defy fixing in Cornerfix) but it also has serious charisma.

Woody,

I'd be interested in seeing a reference image for that lens......

Regards,

Sandy

 

[LJL]

Bernard,
Still think that it would not be in Leica's interest to offer any adapters for anybody else's lenses, and we probably will not see any. Leica never made any adapters for newer lenses for the M8/8.2, and as pointed out, have not done the simple thing of providing lens selection data in the firmware to handle other party glass (mostly Zeiss and CV). I do not expect them to show any interest here either, but it would be nice to be proven wrong. (The difference with the M is that it is a simple fixed mount with no electronics and it is out of patent also, except for the new "coding" issue, which they are pretty protective of also. Did Leica ever produce an adapter for using other glass on the R system? Why would they do that for the S system either?)

It is going to be up to third party folks to build any adapter to mount anything other than Leica S glass onto the S2, IF they can figure out what is needed from an electrical/electronic connection in addition to the physical mount. For manual focus and aperture control, that may be less challenging, but how many folks are going to spring for an S2 body and then "give up" a lot of the features they bought it for in the first place just to mount some older glass that still may not deliver the best to the S2 sensor and how it processes images? Some folks got away with that on the M, but even there, where things were much simpler, there were lots of kludge fixes....they worked in a pinch, but many folks eventually found the Leica lenses to be better solutions for them all the way around. (I have Zeiss and CV lenses for my M8 that I coded and even changed the mounts for, and they do work, but honestly, I am not sure they are in any way better than what I could have done with the proper Leica lenses. Cheaper for sure, and that plays into the equation, but "better" on other things is always a debate.)

LJ

 

[carstenw]

I cannot imagine Leica making adapters, but they really need to come through and allow other lenses on there, in the sense of focus indication and support for lenses on adapters. Preferably, one should be able to tip in the focal length and maximum aperture. Hopefully adapter-makers will then make the various adapters, such as Hasselblad C/CF and F/FE, Contax 645, etc. They would probably all be manual focus, manual stop-down, but I could live with that as a compromise. With time, it would be awesome to have more automatic control than that, but that is probably less realistic.

 

[Bernard]

Leica knows that the CV and ZM lenses sold a lot of M8's. It's nothing like Canon or Nikon where adapted lenses are arguably better than OEM lenses. Customers will eventually replace their V lenses with Leica lenses to get access to the extra functionality and convenience (not to mention the image quality).

It's in Leica's best interest to get people using their new system. As I wrote before, anybody whose business can justify an S2 system can also afford S2 lenses. They just may not be able to buy all of the lenses at once.

 

[robmac]

+1

S2 lenses by themselves, since they are body dependent, accomplish nothing. They are revenue and margin IF and ONLY IF they have bodies to be attached to in the market. Until then, they are nice R&D efforts and un-recovered costs (a.k.a precious cash) sitting in inventory.

Leica, like Sony with the A900, needs get S2 body penetration in the market. Penetration that is as deep as possible, as fast as possible, with as few issues as possible, with any issues fixed with un-Leica-like speed and with every piece of praise from Pros using it known to everyone and his uncle.

Who gives a rat's *** if all you sell initially are X 1-lens kits at intro prices? Who cares how many S2 lenses are attached to the average body sale initially? Where the bodies go, the lenses will follow in ever-growing volume - if the product proves itself. No bodies sold, no lenses sold.

No one expects an S2 buyer to buy a body and ONLY bolt Hassy/Mamiya, etc glass to it. No pro is ONLY going to use his fancy new uber-camera for stop-down work and with manual focus ONLY - and sometimes with adapters of iffy spec from 3rd parties.

To get the AF and utmost IQ, they'll buy the S2 glass as they can afford it, as they need it and as the system has proven it's capabilities & reliability, as it's lens selection grows -- and has Leica has proven it can S&S the MFDB market.

I think you'll find many, if not most, M8 owners own a mix of old and new Leica, CV, Zeiss, etc glass - and many of same would not own an M8 if they could only mount modern Leica lenses to it.

Even at used prices for an M8, the current (Leica) model lens prices, barring the Summarits, are a huge issue for the average shooter looking for a decent cross-section of FLs.

Now given S2 glass will almost certainly make modern Leica M units look like bargains in comparison ....

 

[LJL]

Leica, like Sony with the A900, needs get S2 body penetration in the market. Penetration that is as deep as possible, as fast as possible, with as few issues as possible, with any issues fixed with un-Leica-like speed and with every piece of praise from Pros using it known to everyone and his uncle.

Guess we shall see how things play out, but Sony needed some better glass to make its cameras more useful and to penetrate the market. Not sure Leica is in that same position as Sony needing a better 24-70, or 16-35, or 85/1.4, or 135/1.8 with its proposed line-up of glass. As I said, would love to be proven wrong on this, but not going to hold my breath. It really will be up to third party folks to make any adapters. Hassy and Mamiya probably have zero interest in helping Leica, so do not expect adapters from them for their glass. Zeiss could be an option, but they may already have their hands full with Sony, Nikon can Canon mounts for their glass. Guess that leaves some industrious little shops elsewhere, eh? ;-)

LJ

 

[ptomsu]

All these assumptions are based on the fact that Leica S glass together with Leica S Body performs stellar to other MF products. Sorry, but I cannot really follow that.

For example Hasselblad's H System is developed from the ground up to perform stellar in the digital world, the backs, the camera and the lenses. All new designs and if it comes to camera and backs already 4th or even higher generation - so lot of experience already built in, which Leica still has to learn.

Also there is always the assumption made, that pure perfect optical design is better than any correction. Matter of fact is, that there is NO pure and perfect optical design! All the best optical designs also have drawbacks (and I mean not only high production cost). So I feel that the path Hasselblad is going with "just great" optical design combined with great FW etc delivers stellar results, for prices which one still can afford or is willing to afford. Exactly this is the killer combination, which Leica still has to find.

Pure and perfect optical design alone will NOT be enough, it has to come with a perfectly rounded and finetuned system. And nothing else will be a big seller.

 

[robmac]

Agree on Sony - they need to step up the rounding-out the lens line. That said, at least you can use Mamiya M645, Hassy (non-HC) and M42 glass via adapters and R lenses via conversion (see related threads in Sony Forum) as you wait for the lenses to round-out (not all of which will be knock-outs). It's all manual focus and stop-down work, but it allows you try the body with glass known to you while you see what the new Sony/Zeiss prime/zoom you acquired does as well.

They didn't sell/endorse adapters, but there is the installed base of Minolta MA glass, there are no tech impediments to mounting 3rd party glass (other than registration) and the body is so inexpensive that the risk is very low for anyone looking to give it a go. In short, push the body with the lowest risk possible attached to it and let the lenses follow

True, if the S2's successful, I'm sure 3rd party adapters will start to appear where registration distances allow. This of course assumes that the sensor/IR filter design specific to the S2 or any (POSSIBLE) DAC-like correction in firmware (*) doesn't cause IQ issues

My point I guess is as much as it makes sense (IMHO) for Leica to make it easy (if not encourage) non-Leica glass use on the S2 - and make S2 glass usable on other bodies, they will NOT do it.

(*) See Guy's comments re POSSIBLE (I STRESS THIS) 'DAC-less' (for marketing purposes) but 'DAC-like' level of body+lens+camera firmware integration to correct WA distortion.

Corporate pride in your design expertise and heritage is great. However, Leicas imprudent "Leica and only Leica" attitude re: lens usage, S&S conduits, sales channels, etc., is only going to make things difficult for them- and easy for the competitions marketing reps. I just remember the enthusiasm around the S2's announcement when it was indicated they would be working with Phase. Great move - too bad it was a load of BS vs. what was implied.

When technocentrism/pride puts hurdles in front of your new product introduction and hands blatantly valuable marketing collateral to your competition to use against you as you struggle to gain a foothold, it's simply foolish.

Guess we shall see how things play out, but Sony needed some better glass to make its cameras more useful and to penetrate the market. Not sure Leica is in that same position as Sony needing a better 24-70, or 16-35, or 85/1.4, or 135/1.8 with its proposed line-up of glass. As I said, would love to be proven wrong on this, but not going to hold my breath. It really will be up to third party folks to make any adapters. Hassy and Mamiya probably have zero interest in helping Leica, so do not expect adapters from them for their glass. Zeiss could be an option, but they may already have their hands full with Sony, Nikon can Canon mounts for their glass. Guess that leaves some industrious little shops elsewhere, eh? ;-)

LJ

 

[dfarkas]

Corporate pride in your design expertise and heritage is great. However, Leicas imprudent "Leica and only Leica" attitude re: lens usage, S&S conduits, sales channels, etc., is only going to make things difficult for them- and easy for the competitions marketing reps. I just remember the enthusiasm around the S2's announcement when it was indicated they would be working with Phase. Great move - too bad it was a load of BS vs. what was implied.

Nobody seems to fault Phase One or Hasselblad for being 100% responsible for its S&S, sales channels, etc. Or BMW or Mercedes for that matter. Does BMW need Audi to sell its cars? Or should I be able to call up the Porsche dealer when my BMW needs service?

I think that Leica has proven (even in its prototype stage) that they didn't need Phase One's help in designing the S2, either from a hardware or firmware standpoint. When the S2 comes to market in the summer, I believe you will see that Leica's plans for sales, marketing, and support are solid and well thought out. When all other companies are going into panic mode and scaling back on sales staff, support personnel, and R&D, Leica is making new investments to become a true market leader.

David

 

[robmac]

David,

I commend you for your enthusiasm (and nice work on your blog). The next 12 mos will be interesting if nothing else.

Assume Porsche, a long-time but very small (relatively speaking) presence in the premium compact car market, but NOT so in the high-end sports car market and with relative Leica-scale (within an auto market context) financial resources have just announced their new 999 super car -- their first foray into the ultra-premium sports car market. The car itself looks like sex on wheels and has some neat tech vs. peers and is designed to kick-start Leica's growth. Now assume two scenarios:

1. The 999 is launched in the middle of a global recession as many existing players are struggling/collapsing, using only a choice selection of existing Porsche compact-car dealers and using only say 1 service center per country - but with promises of massive improvement and investment to fund expansion of same. Service, that is rather 'infamous', even within their dedicated customer base as having, shall we say, an iffy track record, to be glacially SLOW and (debatably) more often required than one would have hoped for. Many existing Porsche compact car owners typically have two car, if feasible, to offset these long service times. All the 9xx's tech is developed in-house.

2. Now assume they do the same thing, via their own dealers but also hand-in hand with Mercedes. The latter, lacking a product in that niche (e.g. in Phase or Hassy's case a tweener SLR-esque body) sees the 999 as a entry into that market and a good tool to defend itself against BMW's latest sports car initiatives - which have been stealing some luxo Mercedes sedan/SUV customers.

The 999 would be co-branded, sold and serviced thru a small number of growing Porsche dealers and via the existing Mercedes network, the latter possessing a large market footprint in an expected customer base for the 999. Mercedes, being involved early in the design process as a partner would insure that mechanics would be cross-trained on the car and that testing and tooling gear would be made as common as feasible, etc etc.

The engine of the 999 (e.g the S2's glass), being a barn-burner and considered a hot product by reviewers, would be offered as an upgrade option to Mercedes customers on their upper-end luxo sedans and SUVs. Revenue of car sales thru Mercedes outlets would be shared and Porsche would get arms-length revenue from sales of 999 engine kits to Mercedes allowing for more rapid cash flow in troubled times and to fund off-shoots of the 999.

It's a quick, humorous and thin example at best, but you get the idea ;> No harm in agreeing to disagree.


Cheers

R

 

[robmac]

As the first really innovative clean-slate product in the market, the S2 is certainly an interesting discussion topic...

IF the cost/body were reasonable AND could share the same mount as Hassy/Mamiya, even via intelligent adapters, I would also see the S2 as less of a direct competitor to Hassy/Phase and more of a compliment to for many existing shooters.

The ability for say an H 50MP+ shooter with a myriad of lenses, etc to be able to bolt select (and uber-premium) S2 glass on his/her rig would be attractive as hell. On the flip side, the ability for same to be able to leave the studio, grab her modestly-priced smaller format/form factor, higher-ISO DSLR-esque S2 with 1-2 lenses of their choice for a quick more discreet shoot or for personal work would also be very appealing. No AA filter, SLR like handling, larger than 24x36 sensor, same glass, etc, etc.

An either/or decision due to tech limitations and/or the mind-boggling cost duplication involved just seems a needless line in the sand for customers to face - and for a firm trying to break into/create a new market to limit themselves with.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I think if it was a D3X price plus 20 percent there maybe no discussion just hit the buy button. The problem is this is jumping in price range that we all know is slit your wrist cutting time and major cause for pause given what it is. Honestly if this is over 25k with 3 or 4 lenses than there is no chance given the times and the discounts we ALL know are coming from H&P to stay competitive in this very tiny market. I can almost bet a dozen donuts we will see backs at 10k brand spanking new and with horsepower under the hood coming real soon. Just looking at the P45 plus package with 5 count them 5 high end D lenses at 28k or 30k and that was last month or longer. Come summer time Hmmmmmmmmm. I liked glazed but sugar free please. :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

Like I said i hope Leica makes me the class clown on pricing. i will gladly sit in front of the room with a dunce hat on with a big Leica red dot.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

No sooner did I say that I get this from Calumet

Calumet and Hasselblad are providing two exciting, exclusive trade-in offers for photographers interested in converting Leaf digital medium format systems to the Hasselblad H3D-II.

Hasselblad's H3D-II has earned respect among photographers for its elegant bridge of DSLR ergonomics and digital medium format production quality. With prices as affordable as they've ever been, a robust accessory line, and this valuable trade-in offer, it's the perfect time to switch to Hasselblad.

Both offers expire May 31, 2009, so contact a Calumet specialist or stop by your local store today.

FREE Lens of Your Choice

Get comfortable in a new Hasselblad system when you receive a FREE lens of your choice* from the Hasselblad H series by trading in any Leaf Aptus digital back** at the time of your H3D-II purchase.

The prestigious Hasselblad H-series lens collection is as diverse as it is esteemed. From powerful primes like the 300mm f/4.5 to flexible zooms like the 50-110mm f/3.5-4.5, every optical corner is covered. Take your pick: it's free (and up to a $4,100 value).

*Excludes the 35-90mm lens and HTS1.5 Tilt and Shift Adapter.
**Aptus backs of any mount. Sorry, no Valeo backs.

Upgrade to an H3DII-39 Get Multi-Shot for FREE

Maximize the quality of your new camera by purchasing an H3DII-39MS (MSRP $30,995) for the price of an H3DII-39 (MSRP $21,995). This offer is good when you trade in any Leaf Aptus back with a Hasselblad H1 or H2 body, and viewfinder. The upgrade is a bonus value of $9,000 and will be particularly useful for architectural and still life photographers.

When using the H3DII-39MS's multi-shot mode, the camera takes 4 images, each offset by one pixel. This means every point in the image is rendered with its actual red, green, and blue values; zero interpolation is used. This captures detail and color at their pinnacle of accuracy.

 

[robmac]

Sweet. Hassy does seem to play by the 'big boy rules' as they say.*

* Well-known UK Special Air Service saying re: use of niceties when dealing with insurgent-style opponents: "big boy game; big boy rules...".

 

[mtomalty]

At first glance,it doesn't strike me as a particularly sweet deal
In the first instance, you get a 'free' H series lens when you give 'Blad an
Aptus back. Even the original Aptus22 back must still be selling in the used market
for very close to the price of almost any blad lens. No?

In the second instance, you only quality for the multishot upgrade when you give to
Hasselblad an H1/H2 body,viewfinder, and Aptus back.
Again,the value of the required trade-in products does not fall very short of the
MS differential.

A real deal is when they actually give you something to move you from one brand
to another.When you have to give them something then it strikes me as more
of a marketing gimmick.

Mark

 

[carstenw]

Well... not quite. It is the convenience, and the one-stop nature of the offer which will benefit people. You don't have to look for a buyer, and wait for the money, and ship, and wait for the complaints or the "back never got here" or whatever else goes wrong. Just go shopping, and come home with a new camera. It is a pretty nice way to switch, if that is what you want to do.

 

[robmac]

What they're doing is taking advantage of the bad F&H news. There will a lot of nervous (justified or otherwise) Leaf-Sinar shooters out there.