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Thread: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

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    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Odd that none of us have focused on what may turn out to be the best reason to own an S2: the possibility of adapting a legacy medium format glass to the S2. Because of its shorter-than-MF flange distance most MF glass will be able, at least physically, to be adapted to the S2. Let's review what might be possible:

    Hasselblad 2000 glass: this is probably easiest because of the S2's FP shutter. It would be nice is the lens stop down could be linked to the camera but it could also be done manually. A key issue will be whether the S2 provides focus confirm with third party lenses (Nikon does and Canon doesn't - if I ever by another traditional SLR it will be a Nikon).

    Hasselblad V. More complicated. The Hasselblad V to H adapter gets you most of the way there - it handles lens cocking for example. An additional adapter would be needed to make the physical connection to the camera. How stable would it be stacking adapters? The lens could be left in B mode and use the FP shutter. More sophisticated would be to trigger the lens off of the S2 sync signal, and more sophisticated yet would be to trigger off of the lens contact signal. There is a lot of work to be done here but the potential market is very large.

    Contax 645. I've never shot this system so I don't know what's involved. A lot of interesting glass here so a big incentive to solve the problems.

    Others. Bronica? Should be similar to Hasselblad 2000. Fuji?

    Lecia R. I don't see how this could work form an infinity focus and image circle standpoint.

    Optically the "crop factor" from 645 to Leica S is 1.38. We're in familiar territory here - the crop factor may be all that's necessary to bring much of the legacy MF glass into the digital age by eliminating the outer zones of the MTF charts.

    This is a major opportunity for Leica. Witness all of the buzz around the Panasonic G1 and legacy lenses. One of the reasons that the M8 has succeeded is the appeal of legacy and 3rd party glass. It makes the system "open" vis-a-vis its most important element. Critically from Leica's standpoint it permits the S2 to become a "standard platform" for most legacy MF glass, which should dramatically enhance the S2's appeal. Will it adversely impact Leica lens sales? Not really - at least not if they deliver on the MTF charts they've shown us.

    Most importantly, for the pro with a gear locker full of Hasselblad lenses the S2 becomes an extension or evolution, rather than a start from scratch. Duct tape solutions are not likely to be of interest to this market segment, so its important to Leica that sophisticated solutions be found - particularly in the Hasselblad V area - which is probably the largest segment of legacy glass. I personally would pay whatever it takes to put a V lens on an S2 body.

    So Leica's homework assignment on this is to reach out to Novoflex and share specs and maybe even a prototype. Or do it themselves. Early availability of adapters provides a solution for Leica to the problem of limited choice (at least initially) in Leica S2 lenses.

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    +1 Brother. Posted something similar on other thread. Sadly, odds of it happening - 0%

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    +2 . This would make me buy one without a lot of hesitation if I could bolt my Mamiya lenses on it.

    No chance was what i was told
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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    So Leica's homework assignment on this is to reach out to Novoflex and share specs and maybe even a prototype. Or do it themselves.
    I doubt it will happen, they want to sell new glass.

    This will be up to a third party, but the market will be small compared to the consumer adapter market like for the EOS or G1.

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    +2 . This would make me buy one without a lot of hesitation if I could bolt my Mamiya lenses on it.

    No chance was what i was told
    Let's face it, leica is a glass company and will be for the forseeable future. The S2 gives them differentiated platform on which to mount what they claim are the best lenses they have ever produced.

    Problem with adapted third party lenses is that the image quality may not be sensational compared to the Leica products. Thus the reputation of the S2 system as a whole could be compromised.

    JMHO

    Woody

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    But, it could help you fill out a line-up with less expensive lenses until the entire line-up is introduced and/or allow you to use less expensive lenses on parts of your lens line-up you don't use as often.

    Kurt

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    There was also mention of the IR filtering being part of the lens. Third party lenses would not have this IR filtering and you would have to use external IR filters. This then brings up the red/cyan vignetting we experienced in the M8, except there will be no way to fix it except with software like CornerFix.

    The offset microlenses also need software correction with some lenses. For example, a few years ago, I demonstrated the difference between shooting a 19mm on the DMR with and without ROM. The file with the ROM had some vignette corrections, including red/cyan like the M8 does, though red/cyan vignette on the file without ROM was not as severe as the M8 shot without a coded lens and an IR filter.

    Robert

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - a great idea

    This is a very clever idea and should be passed along. There are many reasons it makes sense.

    First, it takes advantage of the dual shutter mechanisms of the S2, and puts them to "working advantage" - meaning it helps Leica spread its base and sell more cameras. With both focal and leaf shutters, the S2 has the ability to use its focal shutter. Now get it to do something for the system - that is, expand its base. These days this should be more important to Leica as a business than total optical control of all the parts of the system.

    Second, it really provides a way for the closets of lenses to find a new modern home. Many lenses are just sitting, with their owners unsure of what to do with them. A single answer (S2 body) with broad flexibility could be a home for these, and not yet another exception. And if you had lenses from Hassy and Mamiya - with one body to take both.... it gets very exciting.

    Third, it takes the heat off Leica in having to introduce such a broad range of lenses quickly. They surely will do this eventually, but imagine a buyer having imediate access to another 50+ lenses in the marketplace. That's smart marketing, and almost irresistable. Then the holes in the Leica lens system get filled as Leica has time to fill them. The Rollei 6008 lens group is a perfect example of this - if one looks at the number of lenses it takes to service a committed professional group - its large. And is the number of lenses ever enough? Not to mention that a Leica lens is extremely well made, but is never easily made. Their tolerances are high. If someone offered Leica an opportunity to fit several sets of lenses (guess the number?) to their body immediately, they should seriously consider it.

    Fourth, the cost or consequence of this is nominal. The adapters can be made simple or complex (start simple, see what demand is like?), there is precedent for it (Alpa, among others, has all sorts of adapters), and its wonderful PR. Spreads the buzz quickly among Leica's target audience.

    As to the critique of "diminished results" and that Leica is an optical company - the camera needs to get out there and be successful, for there to be a company. Anyone using a camera with "third party" lenses is not stopped from buying Leica lenses. If they are in pursuit of the best, they'll pay for it.

    Lastly - there is the shifting paradigm that Dale has suggested Leica is pushing - and its getting more credible. Consider this: Leica is suggesting (proposing) that the high-end user really wants the convenience of the 35 mm/DSLR paradigm, improved to the next optical and sensor level. They are proposing the S2 as the cap of that way of working. Their argument (if this is understood correctly) would be that the derivatives of MF, with digital backs, clunky interfaces suffer too many compromises that come from their histories, and that the user really wants an updated camera more akin to a digital Contax 645 than a 500C. And they are probably right.

    While this type of shooting isn't my favorite, they have a very good point here. The reference point for today's shooters are 35mm type DSLR's, not the MF cameras of our past.
    Integration, simplicity, speed are their requirements.

    In the Leica model, one could imagine they are seeing that there is an ever-withering group of MF players playing to an ever-smaller group of pros. With the S2 as their proposal to the DSLR crowd who want more, they have to kep an eye on the Hassy and Mamiya as alternatives....

    Now add those lens adapters: and all of a sudden the Leica has all sorts of flexibility and different appeal. It stands out not from the Hassy and Mamiya as to its sheer excellence (which it will), but also for flexibility with its usability with a broad (and possibly cheap) set of alternative lenses.

    This may well be the "kick" it needs to get broader market acceptance and give Leica time and money to bring the rest of the lenses along, with future higher speed sensor upgrade.

    Geoff

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Woody & Rob
    -------------

    Geoff put it very well. You shoot your S2 with say your Hassy/Mamiya XYZ cause it's what you have (and paid dear for), go (hopefully) "holy crap, I like how this draws (even if no better than your Hassy) I wonder what it would really be like with the Leica glass I saw? I also like the form factor/speed. Maybe I'll buy a CS XYZ - the MTF looks stunning..." Down starts the slippery slope.

    As for downgrading the S2 image by using Mamiya glass say - if you're using a 120/4 macro on your S2 you know you won't be getting the optimum for it. Close enough maybe, but not optimum.

    IR issue - make IR filters avail with the adapters, possibly as a kit. There are ways around the issue.

    That said Leica has a bad case of not invented here and (as per Rob's thoughts) are engineering it (not intentionally) so that use of adapted lenses will not be an easy task for someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Let's face it, leica is a glass company and will be for the forseeable future. The S2 gives them differentiated platform on which to mount what they claim are the best lenses they have ever produced.

    Problem with adapted third party lenses is that the image quality may not be sensational compared to the Leica products. Thus the reputation of the S2 system as a whole could be compromised.

    JMHO

    Woody
    Last edited by robmac; 7th March 2009 at 08:18.

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    There was also mention of the IR filtering being part of the lens.
    Rob, I am pretty sure that what Leica said was that the IR filter on the sensor was part of the optical equation. In other words, the slight shift which occurs due to the light traversing the filter is calculated to land the light rays in exactly the right place.
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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Carsten you maybe right they where talking about it but lost my track on it. Maybe David can address this and be more specific.
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    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    A couple of thoughts.

    Apologies to robmac - I started this thread before catching up on the "S2 and my impressions" thread. You get credited as a principal author of this idea.

    On image quality, IR and so on: Some lenses will be fabulous (I would guess that the Hasselblad 40mm Distagon is in that category) and many will have issues, but that's really not the point. One of my favorite lenses for the M8 is an adapted CZ 16mm Hologon which has serious color shifts (that defy fixing in Cornerfix) but it also has serious charisma. Longs will have fewer issues than shorts. IR blocking filters come in all sizes.

    On reputation: shooting the M8 with an 85mm hexanon or a 12mm cv doesn't seem to have hurt Leica's reputation.
    Last edited by Woody Campbell; 7th March 2009 at 11:18.

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    ... Thus the reputation of the S2 system as a whole could be compromised.

    For the reputation to be compromised the S2 would need to first get a foothold in the market. I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon. In the grand scheme of photography, Leica cameras are insignificant, more myth than reality -- more "ooh, ahh" than sales numbers. At the price point being kicked around for the S2 system, in a tanking global economy, I expect sales of the S2 to be insignificant. Successful pro photography is going to be under increasing pressure to reduce their costs -- don't see the S2 fitting in anywhere. Whatever expectations Leica hopes to realize from the S2, I think they have the next 4 to 6 months to realize it. I don't see significant sales of any top-dollar cameras after that -- not for years.

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    What is the S2's flange distance? Anybody know?

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Folks, I am sorry, but I do not see this adapter thing as any real opportunity

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Folks, I am sorry, but I do not see this adapter thing as any real opportunity
    Can you explain why, please? Because Leica won't do it, or because it doesn't have any appeal?

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtKamka View Post
    But, it could help you fill out a line-up with less expensive lenses until the entire line-up is introduced and/or allow you to use less expensive lenses on parts of your lens line-up you don't use as often.

    Kurt
    Fair point Kurt but I just can't see Leica going there (as opposed to whether they should) They plan to have four lenses at introduction and a few more by the end of 2009 and a few more in the first quarter of 2010. So I don't think that lens availability will tilt the deal. Most folks who shoot MFDB don't have more than five or six lenses so within a half year of introduction Leica will be there. I would personally love to see adapters because I have a full complement of V lenses including the 40CFE/IF! I could really benefit from such a program.

    Having said all that, I doubt we will see adapters for other brands any time soon. Good grief some of us are still trying to get Leica to allow other brands to be fully compatibile with the M bodies (e.g. allowing manual entry of other brand lens data into the body) They are afraid that mere mortals like us would likely screw it all up.

    Woody

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Carsten you maybe right they where talking about it but lost my track on it. Maybe David can address this and be more specific.
    Yes, Carsten is correct. The S2 sensor has a 1mm thick IR cover glass fused to the surface. MFDB sensors have two separate pieces of glass, an IR filter and a protection filter. These pieces of glass shift the light rays striking the sensor. A lens designed to be used on a film camera doesn't correct for this phenomenon, so aberrations will result. The S2 lenses were formulated to account for this. In other words, the ray trace goes all the way from the front element to the sensor, as does the actual MTF result.

    As far as the adapter idea... let me address this when I have a little more time. I have someone waiting to see me for a 4 o'clock appointment in the store right now (I'm at work).

    David
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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Personally, adapted lenses would have a huge appeal to me. If I could bolt on my Zeiss FE glass as well as all the CF optics and use the high focal plane shutter speed .... wahooo! But the body would have to be "affordable" to spring for the novelty of it.

    Sadly, Contax lenses and Hassey H/C won't work, the aperture controls are electronic.

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    No apologies necessary - simply an example of great minds thinking alike. IMHO

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    A couple of thoughts.

    Apologies to robmac - I started this thread before catching up on the "S2 and my impressions" thread. You get credited as a principal author of this idea.

    On image quality, IR and so on: Some lenses will be fabulous (I would guess that the Hasselblad 40mm Distagon is in that category) and many will have issues, but that's really not the point. One of my favorite lenses for the M8 is an adapted CZ 16mm Hologon which has serious color shifts (that defy fixing in Cornerfix) but it also has serious charisma. Longs will have fewer issues than shorts. IR blocking filters come in all sizes.

    On reputation: shooting the M8 with an 85mm hexanon or a 12mm cv doesn't seem to have hurt Leica's reputation.

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    I am still wrestling with this concept for different reasons. I can understand some folks that have a deep, good lens collection maybe wanting to drop one of those lenses onto an S2, but why, if they already have a body and back, supposedly with a bigger sensor and more flexibility? If it is to "fill in the gaps" or take advantage of the way the other lenses draw, they still may not look as good coming from the S2 if it is "tuned" to produce an image with Leica glass that has been designed for it. I am sure folks will try various adapters and stuff, but not sure that is going to carry the day for many. Giving up a lot of what you might be buying the S2 and lenses for in the first place with respect to AF, electronic aperture, etc., seems less attractive, especially if one already has a camera and back for those lenses.

    The flip side of using Leica glass on other bodies I get, but it sounds as though Leica is going to have enough roadblocks there, and the image circle may not work best, and the issue of being able to correct anything with existing software may make it more of a PITA than it is worth. We really will not know until there are lenses in the wild. If Leica does want to maybe use the glass for some future DSLR they may roll out, that would seem a better way to go...maybe, but that will not be free either.

    Seems to me if the lenses Leica produces for the S2 system really deliver, and in a very "hands off" way, I think the argument for having the S2 body will be made. Does anybody hope to stick a Leica S2 70mm f2.5 CS/FPS lens onto a 60+MP Hassy or Phase? Really? Guess I must be missing something here.

    LJ

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Can you explain why, please? Because Leica won't do it, or because it doesn't have any appeal?
    At least for me this has NO appeal at all. But maybe I am a minority out there

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    There is no doubt that there will be Hasselblad V adapters, at least from third parties. These adapters will sell quite a few bodies simply because the initial Leica lens line is limited. Leica should encourage this, and even sell their own adapter. People who can afford an S2 will eventually buy Leica lenses, to use leaf shutters, stop-down metering and autofocus. Many will use adapted lenses to tide them over until cashflow and availability improve.

    What would be interesting is a Rollei adapter. This would require a chip in the adapter to translate between Leica protocols and Rollei protocols (or even in the S2's firmware).
    Rollei's PQS shutters require a lot of current, so it might not be possible at all. Still, it would be a win for Leica if they could pick up F&H's customers.

    I really don't think that Leica or anyone else will offer an adapter for the Mamiya/Phase One autofocus lenses, unless Phase One forces the issue. There's bound to be Mamiya manual focus adapters available online if the flange focal distances allow. Those will be more of a curiosity than anything. Pros who haven't upgraded to Mamiya's autofocus glass aren't in the market for new Leica systems.

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    One of my favorite lenses for the M8 is an adapted CZ 16mm Hologon which has serious color shifts (that defy fixing in Cornerfix) but it also has serious charisma.
    Woody,

    I'd be interested in seeing a reference image for that lens......

    Regards,

    Sandy

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Bernard,
    Still think that it would not be in Leica's interest to offer any adapters for anybody else's lenses, and we probably will not see any. Leica never made any adapters for newer lenses for the M8/8.2, and as pointed out, have not done the simple thing of providing lens selection data in the firmware to handle other party glass (mostly Zeiss and CV). I do not expect them to show any interest here either, but it would be nice to be proven wrong. (The difference with the M is that it is a simple fixed mount with no electronics and it is out of patent also, except for the new "coding" issue, which they are pretty protective of also. Did Leica ever produce an adapter for using other glass on the R system? Why would they do that for the S system either?)

    It is going to be up to third party folks to build any adapter to mount anything other than Leica S glass onto the S2, IF they can figure out what is needed from an electrical/electronic connection in addition to the physical mount. For manual focus and aperture control, that may be less challenging, but how many folks are going to spring for an S2 body and then "give up" a lot of the features they bought it for in the first place just to mount some older glass that still may not deliver the best to the S2 sensor and how it processes images? Some folks got away with that on the M, but even there, where things were much simpler, there were lots of kludge fixes....they worked in a pinch, but many folks eventually found the Leica lenses to be better solutions for them all the way around. (I have Zeiss and CV lenses for my M8 that I coded and even changed the mounts for, and they do work, but honestly, I am not sure they are in any way better than what I could have done with the proper Leica lenses. Cheaper for sure, and that plays into the equation, but "better" on other things is always a debate.)

    LJ

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    I cannot imagine Leica making adapters, but they really need to come through and allow other lenses on there, in the sense of focus indication and support for lenses on adapters. Preferably, one should be able to tip in the focal length and maximum aperture. Hopefully adapter-makers will then make the various adapters, such as Hasselblad C/CF and F/FE, Contax 645, etc. They would probably all be manual focus, manual stop-down, but I could live with that as a compromise. With time, it would be awesome to have more automatic control than that, but that is probably less realistic.
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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Leica knows that the CV and ZM lenses sold a lot of M8's. It's nothing like Canon or Nikon where adapted lenses are arguably better than OEM lenses. Customers will eventually replace their V lenses with Leica lenses to get access to the extra functionality and convenience (not to mention the image quality).

    It's in Leica's best interest to get people using their new system. As I wrote before, anybody whose business can justify an S2 system can also afford S2 lenses. They just may not be able to buy all of the lenses at once.

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    +1

    S2 lenses by themselves, since they are body dependent, accomplish nothing. They are revenue and margin IF and ONLY IF they have bodies to be attached to in the market. Until then, they are nice R&D efforts and un-recovered costs (a.k.a precious cash) sitting in inventory.

    Leica, like Sony with the A900, needs get S2 body penetration in the market. Penetration that is as deep as possible, as fast as possible, with as few issues as possible, with any issues fixed with un-Leica-like speed and with every piece of praise from Pros using it known to everyone and his uncle.

    Who gives a rat's *** if all you sell initially are X 1-lens kits at intro prices? Who cares how many S2 lenses are attached to the average body sale initially? Where the bodies go, the lenses will follow in ever-growing volume - if the product proves itself. No bodies sold, no lenses sold.

    No one expects an S2 buyer to buy a body and ONLY bolt Hassy/Mamiya, etc glass to it. No pro is ONLY going to use his fancy new uber-camera for stop-down work and with manual focus ONLY - and sometimes with adapters of iffy spec from 3rd parties.

    To get the AF and utmost IQ, they'll buy the S2 glass as they can afford it, as they need it and as the system has proven it's capabilities & reliability, as it's lens selection grows -- and has Leica has proven it can S&S the MFDB market.

    I think you'll find many, if not most, M8 owners own a mix of old and new Leica, CV, Zeiss, etc glass - and many of same would not own an M8 if they could only mount modern Leica lenses to it.

    Even at used prices for an M8, the current (Leica) model lens prices, barring the Summarits, are a huge issue for the average shooter looking for a decent cross-section of FLs.

    Now given S2 glass will almost certainly make modern Leica M units look like bargains in comparison ....

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Leica, like Sony with the A900, needs get S2 body penetration in the market. Penetration that is as deep as possible, as fast as possible, with as few issues as possible, with any issues fixed with un-Leica-like speed and with every piece of praise from Pros using it known to everyone and his uncle.
    Guess we shall see how things play out, but Sony needed some better glass to make its cameras more useful and to penetrate the market. Not sure Leica is in that same position as Sony needing a better 24-70, or 16-35, or 85/1.4, or 135/1.8 with its proposed line-up of glass. As I said, would love to be proven wrong on this, but not going to hold my breath. It really will be up to third party folks to make any adapters. Hassy and Mamiya probably have zero interest in helping Leica, so do not expect adapters from them for their glass. Zeiss could be an option, but they may already have their hands full with Sony, Nikon can Canon mounts for their glass. Guess that leaves some industrious little shops elsewhere, eh? ;-)

    LJ

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    All these assumptions are based on the fact that Leica S glass together with Leica S Body performs stellar to other MF products. Sorry, but I cannot really follow that.

    For example Hasselblad's H System is developed from the ground up to perform stellar in the digital world, the backs, the camera and the lenses. All new designs and if it comes to camera and backs already 4th or even higher generation - so lot of experience already built in, which Leica still has to learn.

    Also there is always the assumption made, that pure perfect optical design is better than any correction. Matter of fact is, that there is NO pure and perfect optical design! All the best optical designs also have drawbacks (and I mean not only high production cost). So I feel that the path Hasselblad is going with "just great" optical design combined with great FW etc delivers stellar results, for prices which one still can afford or is willing to afford. Exactly this is the killer combination, which Leica still has to find.

    Pure and perfect optical design alone will NOT be enough, it has to come with a perfectly rounded and finetuned system. And nothing else will be a big seller.

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Agree on Sony - they need to step up the rounding-out the lens line. That said, at least you can use Mamiya M645, Hassy (non-HC) and M42 glass via adapters and R lenses via conversion (see related threads in Sony Forum) as you wait for the lenses to round-out (not all of which will be knock-outs). It's all manual focus and stop-down work, but it allows you try the body with glass known to you while you see what the new Sony/Zeiss prime/zoom you acquired does as well.

    They didn't sell/endorse adapters, but there is the installed base of Minolta MA glass, there are no tech impediments to mounting 3rd party glass (other than registration) and the body is so inexpensive that the risk is very low for anyone looking to give it a go. In short, push the body with the lowest risk possible attached to it and let the lenses follow

    True, if the S2's successful, I'm sure 3rd party adapters will start to appear where registration distances allow. This of course assumes that the sensor/IR filter design specific to the S2 or any (POSSIBLE) DAC-like correction in firmware (*) doesn't cause IQ issues

    My point I guess is as much as it makes sense (IMHO) for Leica to make it easy (if not encourage) non-Leica glass use on the S2 - and make S2 glass usable on other bodies, they will NOT do it.

    (*) See Guy's comments re POSSIBLE (I STRESS THIS) 'DAC-less' (for marketing purposes) but 'DAC-like' level of body+lens+camera firmware integration to correct WA distortion.

    Corporate pride in your design expertise and heritage is great. However, Leicas imprudent "Leica and only Leica" attitude re: lens usage, S&S conduits, sales channels, etc., is only going to make things difficult for them- and easy for the competitions marketing reps. I just remember the enthusiasm around the S2's announcement when it was indicated they would be working with Phase. Great move - too bad it was a load of BS vs. what was implied.

    When technocentrism/pride puts hurdles in front of your new product introduction and hands blatantly valuable marketing collateral to your competition to use against you as you struggle to gain a foothold, it's simply foolish.


    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Guess we shall see how things play out, but Sony needed some better glass to make its cameras more useful and to penetrate the market. Not sure Leica is in that same position as Sony needing a better 24-70, or 16-35, or 85/1.4, or 135/1.8 with its proposed line-up of glass. As I said, would love to be proven wrong on this, but not going to hold my breath. It really will be up to third party folks to make any adapters. Hassy and Mamiya probably have zero interest in helping Leica, so do not expect adapters from them for their glass. Zeiss could be an option, but they may already have their hands full with Sony, Nikon can Canon mounts for their glass. Guess that leaves some industrious little shops elsewhere, eh? ;-)

    LJ
    Last edited by robmac; 9th March 2009 at 05:43.

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post

    Corporate pride in your design expertise and heritage is great. However, Leicas imprudent "Leica and only Leica" attitude re: lens usage, S&S conduits, sales channels, etc., is only going to make things difficult for them- and easy for the competitions marketing reps. I just remember the enthusiasm around the S2's announcement when it was indicated they would be working with Phase. Great move - too bad it was a load of BS vs. what was implied.
    Nobody seems to fault Phase One or Hasselblad for being 100% responsible for its S&S, sales channels, etc. Or BMW or Mercedes for that matter. Does BMW need Audi to sell its cars? Or should I be able to call up the Porsche dealer when my BMW needs service?

    I think that Leica has proven (even in its prototype stage) that they didn't need Phase One's help in designing the S2, either from a hardware or firmware standpoint. When the S2 comes to market in the summer, I believe you will see that Leica's plans for sales, marketing, and support are solid and well thought out. When all other companies are going into panic mode and scaling back on sales staff, support personnel, and R&D, Leica is making new investments to become a true market leader.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    David,

    I commend you for your enthusiasm (and nice work on your blog). The next 12 mos will be interesting if nothing else.

    Assume Porsche, a long-time but very small (relatively speaking) presence in the premium compact car market, but NOT so in the high-end sports car market and with relative Leica-scale (within an auto market context) financial resources have just announced their new 999 super car -- their first foray into the ultra-premium sports car market. The car itself looks like sex on wheels and has some neat tech vs. peers and is designed to kick-start Leica's growth. Now assume two scenarios:

    1. The 999 is launched in the middle of a global recession as many existing players are struggling/collapsing, using only a choice selection of existing Porsche compact-car dealers and using only say 1 service center per country - but with promises of massive improvement and investment to fund expansion of same. Service, that is rather 'infamous', even within their dedicated customer base as having, shall we say, an iffy track record, to be glacially SLOW and (debatably) more often required than one would have hoped for. Many existing Porsche compact car owners typically have two car, if feasible, to offset these long service times. All the 9xx's tech is developed in-house.

    2. Now assume they do the same thing, via their own dealers but also hand-in hand with Mercedes. The latter, lacking a product in that niche (e.g. in Phase or Hassy's case a tweener SLR-esque body) sees the 999 as a entry into that market and a good tool to defend itself against BMW's latest sports car initiatives - which have been stealing some luxo Mercedes sedan/SUV customers.

    The 999 would be co-branded, sold and serviced thru a small number of growing Porsche dealers and via the existing Mercedes network, the latter possessing a large market footprint in an expected customer base for the 999. Mercedes, being involved early in the design process as a partner would insure that mechanics would be cross-trained on the car and that testing and tooling gear would be made as common as feasible, etc etc.

    The engine of the 999 (e.g the S2's glass), being a barn-burner and considered a hot product by reviewers, would be offered as an upgrade option to Mercedes customers on their upper-end luxo sedans and SUVs. Revenue of car sales thru Mercedes outlets would be shared and Porsche would get arms-length revenue from sales of 999 engine kits to Mercedes allowing for more rapid cash flow in troubled times and to fund off-shoots of the 999.

    It's a quick, humorous and thin example at best, but you get the idea ;> No harm in agreeing to disagree.


    Cheers

    R
    Last edited by robmac; 9th March 2009 at 10:38.

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    As the first really innovative clean-slate product in the market, the S2 is certainly an interesting discussion topic...

    IF the cost/body were reasonable AND could share the same mount as Hassy/Mamiya, even via intelligent adapters, I would also see the S2 as less of a direct competitor to Hassy/Phase and more of a compliment to for many existing shooters.

    The ability for say an H 50MP+ shooter with a myriad of lenses, etc to be able to bolt select (and uber-premium) S2 glass on his/her rig would be attractive as hell. On the flip side, the ability for same to be able to leave the studio, grab her modestly-priced smaller format/form factor, higher-ISO DSLR-esque S2 with 1-2 lenses of their choice for a quick more discreet shoot or for personal work would also be very appealing. No AA filter, SLR like handling, larger than 24x36 sensor, same glass, etc, etc.

    An either/or decision due to tech limitations and/or the mind-boggling cost duplication involved just seems a needless line in the sand for customers to face - and for a firm trying to break into/create a new market to limit themselves with.

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    I think if it was a D3X price plus 20 percent there maybe no discussion just hit the buy button. The problem is this is jumping in price range that we all know is slit your wrist cutting time and major cause for pause given what it is. Honestly if this is over 25k with 3 or 4 lenses than there is no chance given the times and the discounts we ALL know are coming from H&P to stay competitive in this very tiny market. I can almost bet a dozen donuts we will see backs at 10k brand spanking new and with horsepower under the hood coming real soon. Just looking at the P45 plus package with 5 count them 5 high end D lenses at 28k or 30k and that was last month or longer. Come summer time Hmmmmmmmmm. I liked glazed but sugar free please.

    Like I said i hope Leica makes me the class clown on pricing. i will gladly sit in front of the room with a dunce hat on with a big Leica red dot.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    No sooner did I say that I get this from Calumet

    Calumet and Hasselblad are providing two exciting, exclusive trade-in offers for photographers interested in converting Leaf digital medium format systems to the Hasselblad H3D-II.

    Hasselblad's H3D-II has earned respect among photographers for its elegant bridge of DSLR ergonomics and digital medium format production quality. With prices as affordable as they've ever been, a robust accessory line, and this valuable trade-in offer, it's the perfect time to switch to Hasselblad.

    Both offers expire May 31, 2009, so contact a Calumet specialist or stop by your local store today.

    FREE Lens of Your Choice

    Get comfortable in a new Hasselblad system when you receive a FREE lens of your choice* from the Hasselblad H series by trading in any Leaf Aptus digital back** at the time of your H3D-II purchase.

    The prestigious Hasselblad H-series lens collection is as diverse as it is esteemed. From powerful primes like the 300mm f/4.5 to flexible zooms like the 50-110mm f/3.5-4.5, every optical corner is covered. Take your pick: it's free (and up to a $4,100 value).

    *Excludes the 35-90mm lens and HTS1.5 Tilt and Shift Adapter.
    **Aptus backs of any mount. Sorry, no Valeo backs.

    Upgrade to an H3DII-39 Get Multi-Shot for FREE

    Maximize the quality of your new camera by purchasing an H3DII-39MS (MSRP $30,995) for the price of an H3DII-39 (MSRP $21,995). This offer is good when you trade in any Leaf Aptus back with a Hasselblad H1 or H2 body, and viewfinder. The upgrade is a bonus value of $9,000 and will be particularly useful for architectural and still life photographers.

    When using the H3DII-39MS's multi-shot mode, the camera takes 4 images, each offset by one pixel. This means every point in the image is rendered with its actual red, green, and blue values; zero interpolation is used. This captures detail and color at their pinnacle of accuracy.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Sweet. Hassy does seem to play by the 'big boy rules' as they say.*

    * Well-known UK Special Air Service saying re: use of niceties when dealing with insurgent-style opponents: "big boy game; big boy rules...".

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    At first glance,it doesn't strike me as a particularly sweet deal
    In the first instance, you get a 'free' H series lens when you give 'Blad an
    Aptus back. Even the original Aptus22 back must still be selling in the used market
    for very close to the price of almost any blad lens. No?

    In the second instance, you only quality for the multishot upgrade when you give to
    Hasselblad an H1/H2 body,viewfinder, and Aptus back.
    Again,the value of the required trade-in products does not fall very short of the
    MS differential.

    A real deal is when they actually give you something to move you from one brand
    to another.When you have to give them something then it strikes me as more
    of a marketing gimmick.

    Mark

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Well... not quite. It is the convenience, and the one-stop nature of the offer which will benefit people. You don't have to look for a buyer, and wait for the money, and ship, and wait for the complaints or the "back never got here" or whatever else goes wrong. Just go shopping, and come home with a new camera. It is a pretty nice way to switch, if that is what you want to do.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    What they're doing is taking advantage of the bad F&H news. There will a lot of nervous (justified or otherwise) Leaf-Sinar shooters out there.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Exactly than more will come no doubt
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    The Leica has a smaller CCD size. So it is better to use Mamiya 645 to adapt lenses.

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by yongfei View Post
    The Leica has a smaller CCD size. So it is better to use Mamiya 645 to adapt lenses.
    Wow, is it really that simple?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    No sooner did I say that I get this from Calumet
    And this from Leaf America today...

    So, Let the price wars begin...Phase One, yours is the next move.

    I think the 54s with its speed and fantastic 22mp chip is a winner at that price.

    -Josh

    904-405D VALEO 22WI MAMIYA $4,445
    904-415D VALEO 22WI UNIVERSAL $4,445
    904-425D VALEO 22WI HASSELBLAD H1 $4,445
    906-120D APTUS 22 HASSELBLAD H1 $6,669
    906-201D APTUS 17 F/MAMIYA $4,445
    906-210D APTUS 17 UNIVERSAL $4,445
    906-220D APTUS 17 HASSELBLAD H1 $4,445
    906-401D APTUS 75 F/MAMIYA $11,110
    906-420D APTUS 75 F/HASSELBLAD H1 $11,110
    906-105D APTUS 54S F/MAMIYA $6,669
    906-115D APTUS 54S UNIVERSAL $6,669
    906-125D APTUS 54S F/HASSELBLAD H1 $6,669
    906-405D APTUS 75S F/MAMIYA $12,229
    906-415D APTUS 75S UNIVERSAL $12,229
    906-425D APTUS 75S F/HASSELBLAD H1 $12,229
    906-142D LEAF AFI 5 $17,199
    Last edited by jdbfreeheel; 9th March 2009 at 16:18.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Just got that one too from Leaf
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    What is the universal mount? Is that something which can fit on a Contax?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by jdbfreeheel View Post
    And this from Leaf America today...

    So, Let the price wars begin...Phase One, yours is the next move.

    I think the 54s with its speed and fantastic 22mp chip is a winner at that price.

    -Josh

    904-405D VALEO 22WI MAMIYA $4,445
    904-415D VALEO 22WI UNIVERSAL $4,445
    904-425D VALEO 22WI HASSELBLAD H1 $4,445
    906-120D APTUS 22 HASSELBLAD H1 $6,669
    906-201D APTUS 17 F/MAMIYA $4,445
    906-210D APTUS 17 UNIVERSAL $4,445
    906-220D APTUS 17 HASSELBLAD H1 $4,445
    906-401D APTUS 75 F/MAMIYA $11,110
    906-420D APTUS 75 F/HASSELBLAD H1 $11,110
    906-105D APTUS 54S F/MAMIYA $6,669
    906-115D APTUS 54S UNIVERSAL $6,669
    906-125D APTUS 54S F/HASSELBLAD H1 $6,669
    906-405D APTUS 75S F/MAMIYA $12,229
    906-415D APTUS 75S UNIVERSAL $12,229
    906-425D APTUS 75S F/HASSELBLAD H1 $12,229
    906-142D LEAF AFI 5 $17,199
    Crikies! They also dropped the price of the Aptus-II/10, 54 meg Pano back by $10,000. !!!!!

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    What is the universal mount? Is that something which can fit on a Contax?
    Hasselblad V mount.

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Crikies! They also dropped the price of the Aptus-II/10, 54 meg Pano back by $10,000. !!!!!
    56MP...

    See the rest of the US promotions

    We'll have a new page for European promotions shortly

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: The S2 is a huge opportunity - it's the adapters stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    56MP...

    See the rest of the US promotions

    We'll have a new page for European promotions shortly

    Yair
    OOPS! Sorry Yair, yeah ... 56MP.

    Lacking a square format sensor larger than 36.6X36.6, the revolving 36 X 56 SensorFlex of the Aptus-II 10 would be great for a 6X6 like the Hasselblad V that doesn't offer a revolving back option ... and the preselected format crop option is also pretty cool. Love to see the Zeiss 40IF using that back on full 56. Love the tilt up screen, haven't seen that since my first digital back ... the original Kodak Pro Back.

    I see that Lightroom 2.1 and Adobe Camera RAW 5.1 directly support Leaf files. Gotta tell you, that was a real plus when using my Aptus 75s. I used to open Leaf Capture AND Adobe Bridge and shoot tethered to a desktop folder using Bridge as the browser and the Capture window for full frame viewing ... fastest workflow ever!

    Very innovative products IMO. What a rotten time to be tight on cash

    Anyway, the maximizing of existing systems, (with more favorable pricing to come from all makers I'd bet), sort of illustrates what the S2 is up against IMO.

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