tashley
Subscriber Member
Spot the Swede ;-)
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Where is the X1D ????
- Thread starter etto72
- Start date
With all do respect, I am not waiting on the X1D nor have I preordered it. My comments simply reflect what I have experienced both as a consumer of highly anticipated products and also on the other side of providing clients their photographic goods and services. A company can approach delays any way they see fit but the end user or buyer/client can also determine whether they will accept said explanations or delays and by what means they act on their dismay. It's not about crying or pounding fists, its simply that the end users of products and services often times have different requirements, expectations or in some cases certain deadlines. To try and lump everyone into the same category with either having the same needs and/or attach labels to them because they state an opposing viewpoint on these types of situations, I think is unfortunate.
Everyone is going to have their own opinions and different approaches to all this and I think its important to remember and respect that we are all individuals that may have varying opinions and expectations of how to handle such situations. Discussion and respectful disagreement in my opinion is the best approach.
Dave (D&A)
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Frankly I don't care about the reason , but i find unprofessional not to have a clear answer about delivery date:banghead: to retail store
I totally agree with Jo when he says "Give me the goddam camera"
Does anyone for a moment think that Hasselblad aren't doing everything possible to get these out the door?
Oh and Jo I don't mean to be cryptic, I have an NDA in place with Hasselblad (I beta test software and provide input on upcoming product) so I do have to be cautious when I post here.
Lastly folks, if you think the delay is too long just cancel the pre-order.
Does anyone for a moment think that Hasselblad aren't doing everything possible to get these out the door?
Oh and Jo I don't mean to be cryptic, I have an NDA in place with Hasselblad (I beta test software and provide input on upcoming product) so I do have to be cautious when I post here.
Lastly folks, if you think the delay is too long just cancel the pre-order.
Nick,
There are no babies lying in the floor kicking and screaming here. A total blackout of information leads to conclusions you see here. It also smacks of a total lack of respect for thousands of customers who have ordered a piece of equipment that was promised months ago. It also leads to wild speculation why Hasselblad offers up nothing to give us a clue as to why it is taking so long past THEIR estimate of delivery date. A little information would go a long way in quelling the angst you find here. We can understand and forgive a lot, if we are given a little information and reasons as to why they miss deadlines. As much as I appreciate you and Hasselblad Official giving us information, you have to understand that both of you haven't offered up very much. You also have to admit that, "we are starting to fulfil end-user orders as of this month." could mean as few as ten worldwide. Personally, I don't care if it February or June when I get my camera, but I do not care for being ignored by a company to whom I have been very loyal for decades.
"Does anyone for a moment think that Hasselblad aren't doing everything possible to get these out the door?" Of course not, we just don't like to be ignored and disrespected. And, it's not like Hasselblad is totally surprised by this. They got the same thing while we were waiting on the H4D60 as we waited nine months from date of order to date of delivery. You'd think they'd learn from past mistakes. Maybe we should expect nine months as normal delivery. That seems to be the normal gestation period. (My attempt at humor, sorry!)
Greg
stephengilbert
Active member
Does the input of people with NDAs really add anything? Essentially someone who has a (monetary or other) connection with a brand joins a discussion and says "trust me, I know what's what, and everything is going to be great." Perhaps there'd be less "paranoia" about what's happening if there was more transparency, and fewer NDAs.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I think the whole thing that is getting glossed over is it's not the delay , it's not the product we all understand delays as we all have been through them with other OEMs it's the communication without real answers and clarifying dates, product shipping and who the heck gets them first , middle and last in these shipments. The issue is not knowing. I'll pick on Joe here , he already has two useless lenses in his house that are pure paper weights at let's say 5 grand. Is that fair to him to not know when they are going to be used. Okay B&H threw him a bone on returns but even so leaving out dates and not communicating is not cutting the cheese. Hearing from Kevin no offense bud but it's a joke. He can't produce it any faster it's like a insult to the pre- order guy. Nick I luv ya bud and you know that so don't take offense. But none of you address the hard date line when it's being shipped. Case in point I go buy a newly announced Sony whatever. It comes up for pre-order and usually with a ship date. It may move a little here and there and even sometimes they run into a real issue and it gets pushed out but we are seeing dates and reports too. As Arthea would say show a little respect. We are the holders of the cash.
Now I'm not just harping down Hassy throats here. This practice needs to stop industry wide. Phase did it too , I get that totally been their ate the t shirt but that does not make it acceptable to end users money, patience and work
Now I'm not just harping down Hassy throats here. This practice needs to stop industry wide. Phase did it too , I get that totally been their ate the t shirt but that does not make it acceptable to end users money, patience and work
ddanois
Member
Count me as one of those with a $5000 set of "paperweights"! :banghead::banghead::banghead:
It wasn't that long ago (a number of years), that Nikon did this on a far greater scale, namely announce cameras and lenses at Photokina, and at other industry trade shows and then didn't deliver the product(s) for months and months (and yes more months). No communication and no info forthcoming and with seemingly no reason. I am not talking about the time there were specific natural disasters in various parts of the world where Nikon and other manufacturers were known to be affected.
Since Nikon's general market share is of course larger than some of the manufacturers we are discussing today, there was an uproar and some put their money where their mouth was and switched systems. Not to say some of the other giants didn't engage in this practice. The upshot? Nikon for one listened and responded and for the most part either released a product for the end user not long after it was officially announced or they simply announced a product and gave a fairly accurate and representative release date, even if it was a couple months off and then delivered. Yes I know apples and oranges with regards to the differing size and budgets of some of these smaller companies compared to giants like Nikon in the industry, but good business practices is just that, its a good business models and the customer whatever his/her needs are, are always well served when companies keep the end user in mind and show respect and respond adequately with regard for their point of view. The marketplace is a two way street, each side served and benefitted by one another.
Dave (D&A)
I do actually believe that they're doing everything in their power to get cameras out of the door. I can't imagine that their business and/or hedge fund owners can tolerate indefinite delays. I'm sure that X1D delays are not wonderful for cash flows, particularly on top of the sensor delays impacting deliveries of H6s this year. There's the possibility that if they keep slipping that they will have significant pre-order cancellations, which in addition to lost potential sales, may throw off their post-launch sales forecasts and result in over-investment in manufacturing capacity. And who knows how much their potential target market overlaps with Fujifilm, but it can't be a good thing for them that the GFX is coming and they're losing valuable months of sales advantage as the first and only lower-cost, mirrorless medium format camera on the market.
I'm guessing that they have plenty to motivate them other than irate customers expressing their frustration in online discussion forums with tens of participants, and are working super hard to get this camera to market.
That said, they're missing opportunities to convert irate customers into (or back into) brand and product advocates, and the longer they allow uncertainty to exist, the more of the patient, hopeful folks they are going to lose. Whether that translates to meaningful lost short-term sales and/or noticeable negative brand impact is hard to say. But as a manufacturer of premium products, it wouldn't be a risk that I would take.
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ejpeiker
Member
Not just Nikon, remember Canon's "pre-announcement" of the 200-400 f/4 + 1.4x? It took a year from generating the buzz to when first units shipped. But they got smart and some others, like Fuji, followed their lead. When they want to create a buzz, the declare very publicly that they are "developing" a new product with absolutely no talk of a release date beyond possibly a calendar year. When you do this, like Fuji also did with their GFX, there is absolutely no date commitment but you still get out the buzz. Sure, when it takes longer than a few months people will start to get antsy and still bitch and moan but they can't say that the company isn't meeting their commitments.
The downside to doing that is that it doesn't generate pre-orders like an actual announcement does so production planning info won't be as accurate but it is better from a customer relationship standpoint.
Precisely and it creates far less ill will. Even many smaller companies although, I am sure they have to operate on a different set of principals with regards to economics, logistics, procurement of parts and scaling up production...are beginning to learn the benefits of what you outlined in your comments above. I'm sure there are methods devised to estimate market interest in a newly developed product and to project initial sales without having to take actual preorders many months in advance before tooling up for initial production.
Dave (D&A)
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That was not my quote...
I'm sorry you feel that way Stephen. I thought I had added useful information to the discussion on this and other Hasselblad threads. I'll butt out for now and leave it to people with no knowledge to speculate.
PeterA
Well-known member
I dont get all the angst over delays tbh - what sane person is going to outlay 20K on a new system - without testing it?
These complaints aren't photographer complaints - they are more like spoilt children crying foul over not being able to buy something they want - without even having tried it out.
Photographers meanwhile are using what they already own to make photographs. Photographers will also test a final shipped version and compare it to alternatives - before they buy.
Come on folks - arent we better than this almost hysterical tantrum like complaining?
I suggest peopel wait for not only a shipping version of the XID - but also the nearest competitior's product from Fuji - who are telling everyone who cares to listen that their camera is in 'development'. Meanwhile, prices from hasselblad/phase/leica will change dramatically - if the XID is as good as it promises- the longer the wait the more information from every player in thsi market one will have to make a better informed decision.
I have planned for a decision making process to be finished by no sooner than March and probably June next year.
These complaints aren't photographer complaints - they are more like spoilt children crying foul over not being able to buy something they want - without even having tried it out.
Photographers meanwhile are using what they already own to make photographs. Photographers will also test a final shipped version and compare it to alternatives - before they buy.
Come on folks - arent we better than this almost hysterical tantrum like complaining?
I suggest peopel wait for not only a shipping version of the XID - but also the nearest competitior's product from Fuji - who are telling everyone who cares to listen that their camera is in 'development'. Meanwhile, prices from hasselblad/phase/leica will change dramatically - if the XID is as good as it promises- the longer the wait the more information from every player in thsi market one will have to make a better informed decision.
I have planned for a decision making process to be finished by no sooner than March and probably June next year.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Peter all do respect your not trying to feed your family with photography and your have no rush to get any camera or any gear like that. Your priorities are different . Your also missed the big picture here . It's these OEMs that simply do not communicate, market and deliver products based on a reasonable time from announcement . Many pre-orders have hard dates for shipping. Besides that I'm a Pro I have jumped on new gear on day one, why because I think it will help me. Tried and trusted is a passing fancy in this business. Reviews suck from most of these reviewers now days as there selling click bait. I don't trust anyone when it comes to a review. I put my hard earned freaking money out there and bust my *** to to survive in a very declining profession. If you consider me a cry baby than the hell with you or anyone else that thinks that. I'm running a business this is about putting money on my table. I'm 100 percent vested in this and so are many shooters they need to plan, divest what they have, save for what they want and try to compete in this weekend warrior low ball business. I'm honestly sick of OEMs holding us ****ing hostage. I'll buy what's available without the BS because I need to shoot. I'm not a fanboy of anything never mind a brand label luxury product. I need tools to work. I'm sorry your comment really pisses me off. This is about getting my job done. This is about a Professional brand that's not acting in favor of Professional Photographers. I can't plan for this, I'm out...
This is exactly why I left Leica behind. It's this attitude I can wait. I wait for nothing.
Peter it's about this does not matter talk, it does matter too many.
This is exactly why I left Leica behind. It's this attitude I can wait. I wait for nothing.
Peter it's about this does not matter talk, it does matter too many.
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Feel sorry for you guys. What patience. If you really want it, just wait a few more weeks. Use your other gear in the meantime, have fun, take images and enjoy family and friends.
IMHO, if they do not ship a good number of units by say 20 December then the earliest is the first business days of 2017 as Europe often closes from a few days before Christmas until after New Years Day. Does Sweden celebrate Boxer's Day too?
IMHO, if they do not ship a good number of units by say 20 December then the earliest is the first business days of 2017 as Europe often closes from a few days before Christmas until after New Years Day. Does Sweden celebrate Boxer's Day too?
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Let me use Joe as a simple situation. Factious scenario for him . But here is the problem Joe is sitting on two lenses and owns let's say a A7rII kit and has almost enough money for the Hassy but still short and has to sell a few lenses to come up with the needed cash. How do you plan to sell some or all of your gear in the exact time when your getting its replacement with no date or hard release date and not lose client time or be without a key piece of gear to get the job done. Now if you think this is rare than your all nuts , I do this **** all the time. I'll sell a lens and buy another the same day , go do a shoot in a few days with the new gear. You can't do any of this without a date. Now go back to fictious Joe. He just got screwed the pre- order came up its shipping within 2 days and had no time frame to sell and buy to go by. Guess what he is 5 k short and is forced to cancel the order after waiting all this time. See this stuff does matter. He is being held hostagage because they can't communicate effectively to real clients us end users. Any business no matter if your a stock market trader or engineer has hard times and dates to go by. Why us photographers are supposed to be held hostagage like this is okay , go shoot family photos. Really, I've been doing this 41 years and I better serve my customers or I'm out of business. There is no hall pass, no mercy and no it's okay to be a **** up. I'm just saying think about this in your business and what you need to feed your family. Unacceptable
Sorry, if you took it that way. If you look closely, Hasselblad Official's quote and your quote are shown in italics in my response. My first sentence was a paraphrase of an earlier post that mischaracterized the frustrations some here have voiced. I was simply saying that we are not spoiled children who want what they want when they want it. That misdirects the absolute fact that we have had practically no information from Hasselblad who hosts a website and has many other ways of updating their customers about the progress toward releasing the camera. We don't want chapter and verse, but we do deserve some official information from Hasselblad. Have you ever heard the saying, "Stringing us along." That is what I'm hearing from some of the responses here.
Here is a possible statement that I think we deserve: "Firmware is not quite complete for to release a world class camera that must be up to our standards before release. Completing software/firmware is a nebulous task and sometimes takes longer than expected; a task with which we may have been overly optimistic. We are working very hard to produce the most complete and full featured firmware this ground breaking camera will bring to the market. We expect to start shipping in quantities by xx-xx-2017."
Or. "The unprecedented acceptance of this camera, shown by the large numbers of preorders for this camera, placed pressures on providers of some of the components of this camera and have outstripped their ability to supply in the quantities needed. Additionally, "Due to the very high amount of orders that followed, we had to make structural changes to our factory in Sweden to meet the demand and increase the number of units produced per day." (Quote from Hasselblad Official in italics) We expect to start shipping in quantities by xx-xx-2017
Or. A combination of the above.
Or. Something else
Greg
Thinking out loud, I just now wonder if H announced the X1D to beat Fuji 's GFX announcement and knew they had a less than finished camera at the time, but decided to take pre-orders anyway thinking they could easily beat Fuji to market in this 50MP mirrorless segment. Such as shame, as lack of clear and concise comment has created this monster of a thread which is now only speculative in nature.