Having second thoughts about the X1D...

[tcdeveau]

I re-evaluated my own wants vs. needs and also cancelled my pre-order. Hope someone here gets theirs sooner as a result A bit of my reasoning if anyone cares:

I loved the Hasselblad kit I had (H4D-40/28mm/35-90mm) and have been a bit of a Hassy fan boy. I loved the X1D when I played around with it and think it still has a lot of potential, however, I now need to start planning shoots over the next couple months and a camera and lenses I don't have in my hands aren't doing me any good. I've also realized I need to get out and shoot more and stop chasing gear for the time being...my wife and I may try to start a family and I may be going back to school in the next 2-3 years, so I need to spend more time now shooting rather than waiting on gear to ship. Yes I could've kept my H4D-40 and shot with the gear I had, but the limitations of the CCD sensor meant it sat on the shelf most of the time, and 150mm/165mm filters for 95mm threaded 28mm and 35-90mm were a PITA to use in the field and to keep clean/free of water droplets and dust. There haven't been many used H5D-50cs on the market and the H6D upgrade cost was too $$ for me at the moment.

For the time being, I picked up a 645z with the 55mm, 28-45mm, 45-85mm, and 80-160mm. While it may not be as small or svelte as the X1D package, I got a kit with the same sensor and lenses covering all the focal lengths I need (and more...I never had >90mm with the Hassy) with all the accessories I need (really right stuff plates, extra batteries, etc) for less than the cost of the X1D body alone...and the 645z will do everything I would need an X1D to do. Selling my Hassy kit almost paid for the 645z kit 100% as well, and if I want more lenses for the 645z to satisfy GAS, I can buy older used A or FA film lenses without spending >$2300 per lens. I have a full-spectrum modified A7R with the 55mm f1.8 lens, and just picked up a Batis 18mm for milky way shots....I thought about picking up an A7R2 and more e-mount lenses, but I prefer MF and ended up spending not much more on the 645z kit than I would've on the A7R2 and more e-mount lenses. The 645z zooms should arrive next week, but my first impressions from the 645z/55mm are it is a huge step up in terms of usability from the CCD-based H4D. It will do what I need it to and if I can't get good images out of it, it is by no fault of the camera

I hope everyone that still has their X1D on order gets it soon and I look forward to reading impressions and seeing pictures. I'll re-visit purchase of the system in a couple years, and by then, concerns/questions about shipping dates, firmware, and lens roadmaps should be non-existent...and hopefully I can pick up a used one and a lens or two for significantly less than what they are new today.

 

[DougDolde]

I'd never buy a Sony except for a TV. To me a Sony is a bit of a toy camera.

As far as the X1D goes it looks great. The lightweight factor plus the high iso factor trump my XF/IQ180 big time. Downside is I'd lose a fair amount of resolution. I like to print big, 36x48 typically and the IQ180 really delivers on details and an almost 3D look. Whether the decrease in resolution would hurt the print quality at that size is something I don't know. If I can get a hold of a Hasselblad 50 megapixel file I could make a test print to get some idea.

As I stated earlier I could buy two X1D bodies and all the lenses for the cost of upgrading my IQ180 to the new IQ3-100. $26,000 plus forfeiting my IQ180.

Well, I wouldn't want both kits to maintain but likely could pay for the X1D and lenses by selling off my Phase kit and lenses. Probably would have money left over even though the market for the IQ180 seems to have crashed.

Time will tell what fork in the road I take.

 

[Jake]

Hi Doug,

Although I haven't had the chance to properly shoot the X1D, I'd be more than happy to throw you a few files shot on the H5D-50C if that's any help!

Best,
Jake

I'd never buy a Sony except for a TV. To me a Sony is a bit of a toy camera.

As far as the X1D goes it looks great. The lightweight factor plus the high iso factor trump my XF/IQ180 big time. Downside is I'd lose a fair amount of resolution. I like to print big, 36x48 typically and the IQ180 really delivers on details and an almost 3D look. Whether the decrease in resolution would hurt the print quality at that size is something I don't know. If I can get a hold of a Hasselblad 50 megapixel file I could make a test print to get some idea.

As I stated earlier I could buy two X1D bodies and all the lenses for the cost of upgrading my IQ180 to the new IQ3-100. $26,000 plus forfeiting my IQ180.

Well, I wouldn't want both kits to maintain but likely could pay for the X1D and lenses by selling off my Phase kit and lenses. Probably would have money left over even though the market for the IQ180 seems to have crashed.

Time will tell what fork in the road I take.

 

[lance_schad]

I'd never buy a Sony except for a TV. To me a Sony is a bit of a toy camera.

As far as the X1D goes it looks great. The lightweight factor plus the high iso factor trump my XF/IQ180 big time. Downside is I'd lose a fair amount of resolution. I like to print big, 36x48 typically and the IQ180 really delivers on details and an almost 3D look. Whether the decrease in resolution would hurt the print quality at that size is something I don't know. If I can get a hold of a Hasselblad 50 megapixel file I could make a test print to get some idea.

As I stated earlier I could buy two X1D bodies and all the lenses for the cost of upgrading my IQ180 to the new IQ3-100. $26,000 plus forfeiting my IQ180.

Well, I wouldn't want both kits to maintain but likely could pay for the X1D and lenses by selling off my Phase kit and lenses. Probably would have money left over even though the market for the IQ180 seems to have crashed.

Time will tell what fork in the road I take.

Doug you always say you love the quality that your XF/180/40-80 gives you as well as all the other Phase One systems you owned in the past. You print large and the the clean resolution and the dynamic range that the Phase One systems offer have assisted in your success (and of course your so has your framing skills and of course vision .

You can upgrade to the IQ1-100 for just a little more then the price of a X1D Kit with the 45 and 90mm lenses .
This way you can keep the system that is proven and you enjoyl.

The IQ1-100 has the exact same image quality as the IQ3-100 with a few less features and a different warranty that puts it at about $9k less then the IQ3-100 (which is the price of the second X1D body you mentioned that to the complete (2) X1D's with a set of lenses) . Details Here

What are you going to set them both up on a rail and take two 50mp shots at once, then spend hours in post to combine the two to get under a 100MP res file or do a pano stitch? What is your time worth? Also while setting up those shots you may miss your shot.

The IQ1-100 will provide you with more resolution,dynamic range, iso sensitivity amongst and also provide twice the resolution of the X1D , plus a Capture One Workflow and it is a proven , and improving (P1 released 3 firmware upgrades i past 15 months that have added features/functionality) to your investment and the biggest thing is the Phase One 100MP solutions have been shipping since the day of their announcement in quantity 11 months ago.

Phase One has is a company that does not make announcements of products until they are ready to ship. They do not promote futures and show around pre-production systems to the public, with either a vague answer or it will be fixed in firmware.

One more thing with the P1 system you have access to the leading RAW procession , Capture One.

Anyway I encourage you to schedule an evaluation of an IQx-100 system for you to experience the difference. This offer is also open to other memebers.

Best regards,

Lance

BTW The Phase One has (3) different cable releases for their XF system.

 

[turtle]

I wouldn't get rid of the A7R II either.

Buying a full set of Hassy lenses will cost a fortune, no matter the appealing introduction prices of the bare essentials.

Keep the Sony for when you need a much wider range of focal lengths or for when you need to carry the tiniest and lightest kit possible.

Personally, I'd sell the Q...

 

[vjbelle]

As far as the X1D goes it looks great. The lightweight factor plus the high iso factor trump my XF/IQ180 big time. Downside is I'd lose a fair amount of resolution. I like to print big, 36x48 typically and the IQ180 really delivers on details and an almost 3D look. Whether the decrease in resolution would hurt the print quality at that size is something I don't know. If I can get a hold of a Hasselblad 50 megapixel file I could make a test print to get some idea.

Doug..... why don't you downsize one of your 180 files to 50MP and print it. That really should tell you all you need to know. When I had my Leaf/Credo 50 I printed to 40 inches on the long side regularly but not beyond. I could easily print to 48 inches with two stitched 10mm shifted files. That resulting file is almost the same size on the long side as a 180 file. The pixel dimensions for a two shot stitched (10mm left and right) image from a 50MP back are 12,039 on the long side - an IQ180 is 10328 on the long side...... just some added info.

Victor

 

[Vivek]

To me a Sony is a bit of a toy camera.

Do not underestimate the orange color!

They make the best darn toy cameras there ever is.:thumbs:

 

[DougDolde]

Doug you always say you love the quality that your XF/180/40-80 gives you as well as all the other Phase One systems you owned in the past. You print large and the the clean resolution and the dynamic range that the Phase One systems offer have assisted in your success (and of course your so has your framing skills and of course vision .

You can upgrade to the IQ1-100 for just a little more then the price of a X1D Kit with the 45 and 90mm lenses .
This way you can keep the system that is proven and you enjoyl.

The IQ1-100 has the exact same image quality as the IQ3-100 with a few less features and a different warranty that puts it at about $9k less then the IQ3-100 (which is the price of the second X1D body you mentioned that to the complete (2) X1D's with a set of lenses) . Details Here

What are you going to set them both up on a rail and take two 50mp shots at once, then spend hours in post to combine the two to get under a 100MP res file or do a pano stitch? What is your time worth? Also while setting up those shots you may miss your shot.

The IQ1-100 will provide you with more resolution,dynamic range, iso sensitivity amongst and also provide twice the resolution of the X1D , plus a Capture One Workflow and it is a proven , and improving (P1 released 3 firmware upgrades i past 15 months that have added features/functionality) to your investment and the biggest thing is the Phase One 100MP solutions have been shipping since the day of their announcement in quantity 11 months ago.

Phase One has is a company that does not make announcements of products until they are ready to ship. They do not promote futures and show around pre-production systems to the public, with either a vague answer or it will be fixed in firmware.

One more thing with the P1 system you have access to the leading RAW procession , Capture One.

Anyway I encourage you to schedule an evaluation of an IQx-100 system for you to experience the difference. This offer is also open to other memebers.

Best regards,

Lance

BTW The Phase One has (3) different cable releases for their XF system.

I am probably keeping what I have. It just isn't worth the money to keep diving in the bottomless pit of Phase One upgrades

Probably should have stuck with my Leaf Aptus 75S and Contax 645. The files from that also make great large prints. Spending tens of thousands for a little increase in print detail is a losing proposition.

 

[tashley]

Lance, I respect Phase One and you as a sales rep, and was an IQ180/DF owner. Your statement simply isn't true. I'd offer this conversation as one example of shipping something (IQ180) with "a vague answer or it will be fixed in firmware":

http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=10807

I'm still pissed off about that experience. Some were more tolerant than I. Maybe in the intervening years since 2011 Phase One has improved their process and now deliver to full spec. With the initial IQ180, they did not.

Joe

So very true.

 

[vjbelle]

Lance, I respect Phase One and you as a sales rep, and was an IQ180/DF owner. Your statement simply isn't true. I'd offer this conversation as one example of shipping something (IQ180) with "a vague answer or it will be fixed in firmware":

Phase One and Leaf-Mamiya Official User to User Forum ? View topic - IQ180 USB 3.0 Driver

I'm still pissed off about that experience. Some were more tolerant than I. Maybe in the intervening years since 2011 Phase One has improved their process and now deliver to full spec. With the initial IQ180, they did not.

Joe

Joe.... I remember that thread very well as I started it. It wasn't that important to me since tethering was, for me, just a novelty. But, for anyone who really wanted the USB 3.0 port to work for tethering it turned out to be a real PITA. It took a long time for Phase to iron that out and they deserve all the bad press they got for that blunder.

Victor

 

[peterm1]

Changed my mind back - pre-ordered again!

Well, I changed my mind again and placed another pre-order for the X1D with B&H. After coming back from a trip where I did extensive shooting with my A7RII (and not really enjoying using that camera, nor the color and other adjustments I had to make in Lightroom), I do believe the X1D will be a pleasure to use (I did love it when I briefly tried it out) and the files I have seen from it and the H6D look beautiful.

I also placed a pre-order for the 30mm. I did not order the 45mm and 90mm yet since I don't want to receive the lenses and then wait months for a camera to show up. Hopefully the lenses will still be in stock when the X1D appears in stock - it will be a bummer if the situation flips and I have a camera with no lenses!

My one concern is about the state of the firmware and how glitchy it may be, at least at first.

By the way, I found a Facebook page of a X1D shooter who has lots of comments about the camera and samples that I found to be helpful - https://www.facebook.com/kaisern.chen

Best,

Peter

 

[MomentsForZen]

@peterm1 - I smiled at your reaction to a session with your Sony a7rII. Photography at the prices under consideration here really should be enjoyed. So I would have reacted the same as you did. I could not imagine spending all the money involved in either an a7rII or the X1D ... and hating the experience every time I used the camera!!

[ Your experience suggests a new sales method for Hasselblad. For those who are undecided about making a purchase of a Hasselblad camera, they could make a Sony a7rII available - knowing that an experience with the user interface on the Sony would very likely tip them over the line to purchase the Hasselblad that they wanted. ]

Don't get me wrong - the Sony a7rII is a remarkable camera - technically very good, and with an astounding range of lenses. It is the other camera that I have under consideration to fill a gap in my photography - my purchase of an X1D would be very, very easy if there was a selection of native and 3rd party lenses that had the sheer number and variety of those that are available for the a7rII. But that is just a dream ... For now, we have 2 going on 3

For me, plain logic tells me to purchase a Sony a7rII ahead of the X1D if I was just interested in "image making". But this would be a soulless decision. Photography is different to making images. It is a action that leans heavily upon the feelings, emotions and creativity of the photographer. There is no doubt in my mind that a happy photographer will take better photographs than a frustrated and robotic photographer. I lean towards the X1D rather than a Sony a7rII (at least today) - I would prefer to struggle technically but have a smile on my face when I look at the camera in my hand.

By the way, I have a 501CM body and a CFV-50c back, so I know first hand what characteristics the sensor in the X1D will impart on the images - beautiful, rich, crisp.

Given the expense under consideration here - e.g., the X1D body plus 3-4 lenses to form a system to meet a number of different demands - will be north of $20k. I expect to get a decade or more of enjoyment. Given this time frame of ownership, a delay of a week or two, or a month or two even, really isn't all that important or significant. I know that a few months down the track, when I have been photographing with the X1D for some time, I will look back at my impatience and laugh at how silly it was.

A question for the readers ...

Q: How long are you expecting to own and use your X1D ?


... MomentsForZen (Richard)

 

[Erik Lundqvist]

Q: How long are you expecting to own and use your X1D ?

Until the X2D comes out of course

 

[MomentsForZen]

Great answer, Erik ! If I followed my logical self, I would give the X1D a miss and wait for the inevitably far superior seconds generation. The second generation of almost any piece of technology is so much better and solid than the first generation. The second generation doesn't have to define and configure the entire system - it is more focused on the user-experience and features - and benefits greatly from the existence of the shell of the system built by the first generation device.

Sticking to the Sony example that I was using - Compare the success of the a7rII (second generation) compared to the a7r (first generation) - does anyone even remember the a7r?

Q : Are you, or anyone else, seriously going to upgrade a $10k body every year or so ?

[ If "yes" then I want to know how to get my hands on that amount of $$$ ]

I thought getting a new iPhone each year (nearly) was extravagant !

... MomentsForZen (Richard)

 

[JeRuFo]

I find it very difficult to use a camera that might come out in 3 years time.

 

[peterm1]

The availability of an almost unlimited number of lenses that can be adapted to the A7RII to me is both a blessing and a curse - I like the idea of limitations focusing my creativity within those limitations. It doesn't bother me too much that there are only a couple of lenses available for the X1D at first, and in fact I like the simplicity of being forced to use fewer tools (plus it keeps the costs slightly under control - I have spent too much money on trying all kinds of lenses on my A7RII).

A few areas that are really important to me though are the user experience, resolution and color, and that's where the X1D especially appeals to me. I love the Leica Q for its ease and enjoyment of use, as well as the file quality, and if it came in a higher resolution package (with slightly more dynamic range) in just one or two more focal lengths, that would check all my boxes and meet the needs of my clients looking for very large prints. I feel inspired to shoot when I take it out with me. I thought about the Leica SL, but the resolution (and very large AF lenses) put me off, and the cost is really no different overall than the X1D system.

The A7RII has enough resolution for me, but it doesn't make the process engaging and fun for me at all like the Q, and I am spending too much time in Lightroom tweaking my files.

In the meantime, winter is coming and I don't get out to shoot as much, so I am content to be patient and work on my archives while this all plays out...

 

[Geoff]

I find it very difficult to use a camera that might come out in 3 years time.

Perhaps this helps:

"might use a camera that might be available"

Keep it vague, and anything is possible!

 

[JeRuFo]

Perhaps this helps:

"might use a camera that might be available"

Keep it vague, and anything is possible!

My wife is already complaining enough about the hypothetical masterpiece on the wall, she just can't see it.

 

[Godfrey]

Re: Changed my mind back - pre-ordered again!

Well, I changed my mind again and placed another pre-order for the X1D with B&H. After coming back from a trip where I did extensive shooting with my A7RII (and not really enjoying using that camera, nor the color and other adjustments I had to make in Lightroom), I do believe the X1D will be a pleasure to use (I did love it when I briefly tried it out) and the files I have seen from it and the H6D look beautiful.

I also placed a pre-order for the 30mm. I did not order the 45mm and 90mm yet since I don't want to receive the lenses and then wait months for a camera to show up. Hopefully the lenses will still be in stock when the X1D appears in stock - it will be a bummer if the situation flips and I have a camera with no lenses!

My one concern is about the state of the firmware and how glitchy it may be, at least at first.

By the way, I found a Facebook page of a X1D shooter who has lots of comments about the camera and samples that I found to be helpful - https://www.facebook.com/kaisern.chen

Best,

Peter

And the beat goes on ... :angel:

I'm happy with my present gear. I still would love an X1D and a 22mm lens, but 30mm might be wide enough. I also still would love a CFV-50c back for my present Hasselblad system. I worry about nothing, because I don't need any of it. But I would love to shoot with it, to explore how all of this gear sees and how that matches what I see.

If circumstances allow, at some point, I'll acquire one, the other, or both. There is no rush, just the joy of anticipation. Meanwhile, I need to do some more photography.

onwards,
G

"Equipment is transitory. Photographs endure."