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Thread: MF High ISO Image Thread

  1. #51
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Guy,
    I think this worked, but honestly, I would think its utility to be marginal. Not saying you did not do your best part, just that even with all the pixels and ability to print large, this type of shot would not merit that consideration in my book. Again, not your lack of trying....just the overall result would limit its use. Now, if this is the only shot of this special speaker or something, then you got it, and that is all that matters.

    To me, this seems like the perfect setting for a DSLR that has higher ISO capabilities. I know, I know, you would prefer to work with just one system, and I am with you on that part. But to take advantage of overall image use, it would need more DOF to get the podium (maybe), so f4-5.6 might not be out of the need zone here. I personally like the more isolated, shallow DOF myself, but just thinking about how the image might be used. So, going to ISO 1600 would give you one more stop, and that would help if it was clean (very low noise), but the 35mm DSLR shooting at ISO 1600, but f4 or 5.6 would probably yield a bit better shot....not as many overall pixels maybe, but something that would still hold its own for use. Just my opinion here. I love seeing the boundaries pushed and the "knowns" challenged, so keep after it.

    LJ

  2. #52
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Yea this was the first time in a really long time i hit such low light levels and it was not fun. Any slower shutter speed which I could have done but 1/90 is about the slowest you can go without speaker blur. So this gig I hit a wall and pushes me into looking at a back that can do 1600 which i am looking into as we speak. Luckily this will be used small and mostly on screen stuff. So I got away with it but this was too close for comfort. BTW this guy was the absolute worst of it, the rest are fine
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  3. #53
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Then not to worry. Run it through Dfine or whatever NR you use, sharpen it up a bit, and deliver a "Web ready" image for their use ;-)

    The ISO 1600 seems like it is needed for folks like us that do shoot more challenging lower light stuff as much out of habit as is dictated by our business. (I do blame my needs as much on old PJ habits, and thus my other need for faster glass....but I digress.)

    With respect to the client side of things....if they really wanted and needed images from the event, then they should be more flexible for lighting needs. Either they tolerate flash, or they need to crank up the lights more so that photogs can get good shots. Lower light ambiance is nice and all, but they need to understand the resulting product limitations and expectations. Yeah, another losing battle.....you can explain it to them, but you cannot understand it for them ;-)

    LJ

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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    As you all say, I think we lose any "edge" that MF files might have when we have to work in low light like this last one. I'm not criticizing here at all, in fact I'm impressed that you achieved focus in such low light. I just think it illustrates how tough it is to do these kinds of events with MF. It seems like your clients can love your work with any modern DSLR file because they won't see the micro-stuff you see, but they will see noise and the more obvious stuff from MF in very low light, etc.

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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Yes you don't really need the MF stuff for this stuff but I still love shooting it and when i went for other stuff it is awesome and one reason is the file is well behaved and I don't have to screw with blown highlights and such as nearly as often. So one hand it is not good but on the other it is.
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Also like to show the good the bad and the ugly. That is what this place is for , to learn from others.
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    I know, Guy, I agree. But if we can prod you to get a new DSLR kit it's almost as good as the rest of us going shopping for gear too! Except the bill never shows up for us.



    (Highlight control really is a fantastic benefit of MF.)

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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    I know I could use one
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    I don't know about you, Guy, but this economy takes all the joy out of my B&H wishlist. I try not to even open it.


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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    That 150mm really does a nice job wide open ... I personally don't mind the separation shooting that shallow with medium format produces. It puts the focus squarely on the speaker. But everyone's tastes are different.

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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    As promised I have posted some High ISO shots below from a H3D39 Mk2.

    I chose a location specifically with bugger all light as well, as evenly lit / bright areas are less challenging for the sensor. So I shot inside my garage which is North facing. You can see it here...



    So not a great deal of light around!

    The next set of images are are the full frame. I am using our famously bad HCD28mm (Thats sarcasm by the way) at an initial exposure of 2.5 seconds at f16 and then shutter adjustments thereafter.

    50 ISO



    100 ISO



    200 ISO



    400 ISO



    800 ISO



    Now that doesn't tell you a lot of course! I have some central crops of the image but I would like a recommendation where to host them, where they won't get cut down to 1280xwhatever. Would be useful if they kept their full sizes at the crop.

    Ideas?

    Ill edit this post shortly and put some 1024 crops on, which PhotoBucket should leave alone.

    Ok so here are some crops..

    50 ISO



    100 ISO



    200 ISO



    400 ISO



    Best,



    David
    Last edited by David Grover / Phase One; 16th March 2009 at 06:11.

  12. #62
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    ...and the 800 ISO as I am limited to 10 images per post!!!


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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Oh, and one more thing, Tiny USM on each image (100 / 0.8)

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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Thanks David for taking the time to run this for us.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    No problem! And I should say the 31MP (Due to the different sensor) is certainly ahead of the 39MP sensor in terms of high ISO performance.

    A few more crops....

    50



    100



    200



    400



    800


  16. #66
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Annnnnnd a couple from the edge!




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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Looks real familiar to me and what I was pretty much expecting. The 800 is there and has it's noise but looks pretty well controlled. Like my back may need some extra love. You know 400 looks nice , I wonder if you went 1 stop under at 400 and pushed up if it actually maybe better than the 800 setting
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    ...and before I get the 'Hasselblad Files aren't sharp' comment, here is one with extra USM, and albeit a tiny contrast boost.

    We tend to leave default USM very very low.


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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Looks real familiar to me and what I was pretty much expecting. The 800 is there and has it's noise but looks pretty well controlled. Like my back may need some extra love. You know 400 looks nice , I wonder if you went 1 stop under at 400 and pushed up if it actually maybe better than the 800 setting
    Mmmm you never know! Could well be.

    I did actually underexpose the 800 shot a bit (it was getting cold in there!) so it would have benefited from 1/3 more I reckon.. just to help the shadows!

    I think it shows though that you could run around at 200ISO quite happily and at least 400-800 on the 31MP.

    David

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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Thanks David -- nice results! It is interesting how in almost all cameras, there is usually a much greater difference between the highest ISO and the second highest than there is between the lower ISO's. At 100%, 50-400 are not dramatically different, and then 800 is definitely a step down. That said, since they are such large files, it still gives you a usable image in many different situations. But I do see similar patterns in lots of cameras -- the DMR and M8, and my own Sinar digital back.
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Yes when it hits it's wall it hits the wall for all of them . Which in a way is good , you know what to expect and usually in better light you get some more than you bargain for. In better light these would look even better as the same with my back. But i am glad to see Hassy pull this extra stop in there camera's now. This will help folks
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    If anyone with a P45+ wants to do similar I would be interested. So far I have only seen well lit, high ISO shots.

    David

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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Nice to see some examples from the 'crappy' 28 David.

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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Yep! Its 'crap' as ever!

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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    David what sort of bikes do you have there on the Right?

  26. #76
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    The two muddy one's are GT 3.0's. Nothing special but good enough for my local trails and my legendary lack of balance.

    http://www.nationalcycles.co.uk/gt-a...disc-2008.html

    The one on the back wall is a Claude Butler Volante, which is not made anymore. Again nothing special but it got me round France! Its for sale if you want it. ;-)

    DG

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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    If anyone with a P45+ wants to do similar I would be interested. So far I have only seen well lit, high ISO shots.

    David

    My shot of Easter was not what I would call well lit. It was window light and even at ISO 800 still only netted me a shutter speed at 1/30th wide open.


    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One

  28. #78
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    I shot Sinar for years - (hated having to reboot software infront of clients continually) so I bought a P45+ for image quality and software. That died with as splash of sea water... point being, I'm in the market and buying, so, I've now tested the new hassie 39mp hD39II, and the older Leaf Aptus 33mp. Same sensor as the new 7 series, so I have been told.

    So besides the latest Sinar I've tested them all against each other. Overall I found the Hassie very disappointing with grain. My tests didn't look as good as those found here. I was in-fact appalled / my tests were low light and with flash to fill. I shoot a hassie and like the idea of the tilt shift adapter and 28, so wanted to buy the new back from them and liked using it. However, after the tests I couldn't do it. Software and grain.

    Anyway here is a website which takes the human element out of things but gives a good mathematical comparison on digi cameras. Interesting to see how ISO compares here and that the Leaf has the truest ISO capacity.

    I'm going for Leaf...Only grief here is the Moire is much more prevalent than seen on the Phase backs due to large pixel size.

    Anyway - have a look

    http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/DxOMark-Sensor


    And if you have to shoot high ISO go 35mm these day...I've been enjoying the Canon 5dmarkII for low light work. One major criteria for medium format for me these days is the high flash sync not available on the latest Canon's. I've not tested it but I would think if you had to use 800 or 1600 - then shoot a new Canon or Nikon instead! Also more ergonomic in low light situations............as much as I hate to admit it being a medium format shooter 99% of the time for the last 17 years.

  29. #79
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    I'm sure quite a few people have already seen this review on LL, but wanted to pass it along to everyone:

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...roducts_id=205

    This is the review of the P65+ with Sensor +.

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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Clawery View Post
    I'm sure quite a few people have already seen this review on LL, but wanted to pass it along to everyone:

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...roducts_id=205

    This is the review of the P65+ with Sensor +.

    Chris Lawery (Email Me)
    Sales Manager
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    Not sure if it is just me or what, but the posted results are not terribly impressive. And if one goes into the discussion forum on LL, they will read a lot of the same sort of impressions....not a great showing, or results (after binning down to 15MP) that pale in comparison to almost any 16-25MP DSLR today. There is a lot of back and forth over some of this, but the general impression is that the P65+ is great for what it delivers in good light, but the Sensor+ technology is really not providing anything stellar and that would be better from a DSLR. Now, folks will argue that the point being is you only need to carry one camera/back when the light gets lower, etc. One has to ask if the Sensor+ tech, though welcomed by some, is really doing any real favors for the P65+.

    I think we need some more looks at things, but the stuff MR posted is not really all that impressive. Actually, Guy's "pushed" shots with his P25+ look more acceptable than the P65+ with Sensor+ technology engaged at the higher ISO. I remain unconvinced at this point that Sensor+ is doing all that much. What do others see and think at this point?

    LJ

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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    I think they need to send Guy a P65 Plus. Who said that. LOL
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I think they need to send Guy a P65 Plus. Who said that. LOL
    That could be the case, Guy, but that still does not answer the question about the posted shots looking so......um....uninspiring or convincing

    Not really looking to get into a debate about MR's techniques or whatever. The shots taken, processed and posted just do little to convince me (and a lot of others, evidently) that the Sensor+ technology is adding anything really that positive to the P65+. In good light, with good exposure, it may be the hands down king of the heap, but at the higher ISOs that are touted as a great new capability with it....not so much

    Now, if it really is the testing, processing and posting as the problem (which all have margins for error), that is a completely different story. But what was shot, processed and posted was normal "routine" shooting, by his own account, much like you were doing at that one event, and the P65+ with Sensor+ was not looking like it moved the ball down the field all that much. I am not expecting spotlessly clean, highly resolved, perfect ISO 1600-3200 shots, but geez, for $40K, it sure does not look impressive to me. As I said, the good light shots are a completely different issue. I just think Phase is over-reaching a bit here and hyping more than it is delivering with this Sensor+ tech they are pushing as the new best thing. Just my opinion.

    But I will agree.....they should send you a back for some more serious testing for say a year or so....at least until the S2 is out and tested also

    LJ

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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    My thoughts exactly. I have not seen Michaels test yet and not to say he is not a capable tester by any means. Far from it but be nice to see some other folks doing this also. I read some of the comments on them and I am wondering about the Sensor Plus myself.
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  34. #84
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Not sure if it is just me or what, but the posted results are not terribly impressive. And if one goes into the discussion forum on LL, they will read a lot of the same sort of impressions....not a great showing, or results (after binning down to 15MP) that pale in comparison to almost any 16-25MP DSLR today.
    I think we need some more looks at things, but the stuff MR posted is not really all that impressive. Actually, Guy's "pushed" shots with his P25+ look more acceptable than the P65+ with Sensor+ technology engaged at the higher ISO. I remain unconvinced at this point that Sensor+ is doing all that much. What do others see and think at this point?
    LJ
    I agree completely and was shocked at how poor the 1600 ISO crops on the LL looked. And those were from 15mp files. In response to such criticism, Michael Reichman responded quite brusquely that he and several others who had tested the P65 considered it the finest imaging device in history, and critical comments about image quality from those who had not personally tested the P65 were "gratuitous." Of course, the imaging quality at 60mp was not the issue at all, and nobody questioned it. It was a straw man. The real issue framed by his "review" of the Sensor Plus Technology was the quality of the 15mp files from the P65 at 1600 ISO, and his assertion that the Sensor Plus Technology was a "game changer." From what I saw in that article, if you compare the quality of 15 mp ISO 1600 files from the P65 with 25mp files from the D3X at 1600 ISO, the Nikon will blow them away. If that is a game changer, it is a very sad commentary on the state of technological innovation in the medium format digital marketplace.

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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Howard,
    You have summed it up nicely. I am beginning to think that expectations are being set too high for things that are just not there. In fact, it is beginning to look more and more like what we see in 35mm DSLR....you can have resolution (1DsMkIII, 5DMkII, D3x, A900) or you can have speed (fps AND ISO) with 1DMkIII and D3, but nothing yet to deliver both as satisfactorily. In MF, the split seems to be resolution capabilities (P65+, H3DII-50 and maybe -60 later, Leaf 60MP) and ISO capabilities on a more modest level (H3DII-31 seems to be looking very impressive at ISO 1600), but again, both in one is not seeming to work so well. (Not even going to think about fps for MF, as it is just not even close, nor should we really expect that, I guess.)

    Marc (fotografz) has taken that approach with H3DII-31 and -39, with different uses as needed. I do that same thing now with 1-series DSLRs for speed versus resolution, as folks shooting Nikon see also with D3 and D3x, and I just do not see that changing all that much for a while. Would be nice, but honestly, it does not seem to be in the cards yet, despite what manufacturers are claiming and marketing at this point. If you need/want higher ISO performance, use a new DSLR and get over it. This notion of having it all is not quite baked yet, IMHO.

    LJ

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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    The crops that Reichmann posted don't seem bad to me, but they are also kind of useless for my application. It's been my experience that what high iso looks like in good light is totally different from what it looks like when you are actually using it -- in low light. It's one thing to have a nice, clean high iso file when you expose it fully and you are in good light. It is another to have a good looking high iso file when it is actually dark and your shadows are black, your highlights white, and your midtones on the dark side. This is a more realistic test -- photographing something at night, lit by either artificial light, the moon, or the last bits of daylight. In these situations the light source will be blown out, your shadows will be completely black, and the main area of the photo will be on the dark side, but must contain good detail. This is what I would like from medium format digital, but I have not seen it yet. It is what the D3 does so well. What you need is a sensor that can render clipped blacks with unobtrusive noise, no banding, while maintaining good color saturation, details in the midtones, and pure whites.

    Anyway, those are the sorts of tests I would be interested in seeing -- I am not as interested in shooting at 1/500th and f/8 in moderate light levels, I am interested in getting a great image from the sensor when you are shooting at 1/4th and f/2.8 at ISO 3200.
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Stuart,
    I agree with you here, with one exception. There are times when you need to jack up the ISO in order to preserve the shutter speed. In those cases, having a clean ISO 1600, for example may be important, as other details are going to be more visible also. I have run into this problem when shooting what looks like moderately decent light, but I needed a 1/640s shutter speed in order to freeze the action of the moving subject (horse jumping in an indoor arena with mixed lighting). In that case, the only control option I had was cranking ISO up to 3200 in my case, even at f2.8 aperture. That may not be the situation many face with MF shooting, but I can see it being a real issue with something as simple as people walking at dusk or dawn, waves lapping in the harbor, and other settings where one does need to freeze the action.

    LJ

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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    And that is the major issue as we saw in my first examples on this thread i needed that high shutter speed to stop runway movement. With MF shutter speed is a much more important issue than a lot of other things. I see the sensor plus as a real value with that purchase not sure i would make that my priority when making the P65 purchase or a future product but when your back is up against the wall and you need to pull something off this could be a lifesaver.
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Well guys, I certainly agree, but I think that if the sensor can deliver in very low light situations, there is no question that it will do so in good light when you just need the shutter speed.
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    This is a more realistic test -- photographing something at night, lit by either artificial light, the moon, or the last bits of daylight. In these situations the light source will be blown out, your shadows will be completely black, and the main area of the photo will be on the dark side, but must contain good detail. This is what I would like from medium format digital, but I have not seen it yet. It is what the D3 does so well. What you need is a sensor that can render clipped blacks with unobtrusive noise, no banding, while maintaining good color saturation, details in the midtones, and pure whites.

    Anyway, those are the sorts of tests I would be interested in seeing -- I am not as interested in shooting at 1/500th and f/8 in moderate light levels, I am interested in getting a great image from the sensor when you are shooting at 1/4th and f/2.8 at ISO 3200.
    This is exactly the test I personally ran last Friday.

    I will be posting the results on CaptureIntegration.com this week.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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  41. #91
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Guy, I know you do not want to hear this, but if "your back is up against the wall", you put down the Phase, and pull a D3 or something from your bag with the appropriate lens and shoot with that. Taking a 60MP back, binning it down to 15MP just to pick up one stop seems foolish when you can just as easily and more effectively get a great file of similar size and excellent quality with 1-3 more stops. I know folks using MF really, really want to be able to shoot if everywhere and for everything, but there are some situations where they definitely are NOT the best tool for the job. Sorry if that sounds contrary to what some may want to believe. To me, a marginal ISO 1600 at 15MP binned down from 60MP is compromising too much of that 60MP quality one is paying for, and still not getting as much as could be had with a good DSLR that is capable of dealing with those higher ISOs. And for runway shooting, where you may be using a longer lens, the DSLR glass at 85-200mm is not going to be giving up much quality at all. Yes, the AA filter will require a bit more sharpening, but at least you will be able to hit the shutter speeds needed to get the shots you want without fighting the MF ISO hurdle and winding up with marginal shots, maybe slightly blurred because you still cannot get the shutter speed high enough. I have shot tons and tons of high ISO shots, in horrible light, and I am pretty confident that nothing in MF can touch what I can get from the DSLRs right now. For other shooting, the MF rigs mop things up over DSLR, but for high ISO, they are still sucking wind pretty hard and not crossing the finish line yet. If you really, really need to use MF under that kind of light, bribe the lighting tech to crank up the lights or strap on a powerful, high speed flash set-up and blast away. Pushing the ISO for marginal results on must have shots seems counterproductive to me.

    LJ

  42. #92
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    I know I know but what IF . LOL You don't have one. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I know I know but what IF . LOL You don't have one. LOL
    You pass on the back upgrade and get one? Or, you pick jobs that work better with the MF gear you have and shoot now?

    Another heresy, I know, but I do not take some jobs that I know I cannot cover with my present gear to turn out the quality that I demand and is needed. (Probably why I am not getting any wealthier doing this )

    LJ

  44. #94
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    Re: MF High ISO Image Thread

    RENT. LOL

    My new laptop is here. I am playing. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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