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Hasselblad to be acquired by DJI

hcubell

Well-known member
Howard

Please ...almost everything in this thread is opinion ..including most of your posts. When you see an opinion that you don t agree with you call it “Speculation “ . Belittling others opinions isn t in the spirit of this forum.

The point Lou was trying to make was ..that HB is very small and is set up to hand make high end cameras . This is low volume ,exactly work done by skilled labor . If you have ever seen how they assemble Leica M bodies in Germany ...its small work stations ,organized into small groups (called manufacturing cells) . Leica was producing less than 50 M bodies a day when the M8 was introduced . It took them months to get to 1000 a month on the M8 and years to get to 1500 a month .

The S body by contrast was pegged at 100 month to start ..just as a frame of reference.

HB with 30 million in sales must be producing the H bodies in quantities closer to the S body . Just a quick reasonableness check .....assume sales value of $10k (wholesale) and you can see 100-200 per month is reasonable for a $30M company .

The point being made is that the challenges of ramping up manufacturing to achieve even the original 3000 units forecast is a important consideration in understanding HB.

Fuji by contrast have the people that know how to do this . They have years now of experience in introducing new products ,scaling production etc etc . They will approach the production of the GFX in quite a different way .

My background including doing projects with clients ..was exactly like the situation at HB . Nobody wants to hear my perspective ...I get it ....its depressing when we all want HB to be successful. I wish HB the very best in 2017 ..this is a critical product launch that will define the company and maybe the whole MF market .

Personally I don t want a mass produced product aimed at the high end of the DSLR market . I share the vision of the HB CEO .... a company focused on premium cameras ..with superior craftsmanship .
Not really. I am NOT speculating in explaining the business background for why the current owner wants out of Hasselblad, why DJI may want in, and why the change of control is NOT a portent of horrible things for Hasselblad. I know that from years of experience. That's hardly the same as providing a hard number as to the number of X1Ds Hasselblad is currently capable of making per month. Nobody other than Hasselblad has a clue. And it certainly doesn't make a wild guess any more accurate to reference Leica's experience with the S cameras. Did Leica have the number of preorders for the S that would compel them to ramp up production? Is the X1D as a mirrorless camera anywhere close to the S camera body (or a rangefinder M) in terms of complexity of manufacture? Did Leica have an owner like DJI that has experience with higher volume manufacturing?
Saying that Hasselblad can only make 100 X1Ds per month is simply provocative. It has zero basis in fact and completely contradicts any conceivable estimate as to the length of time it will take Hasselblad to fill the thousands of preorders. Unless of course you think Hasselblad is lying, in which case come out and say it.
I personally couldn't care less if Hasselblad makes a slew of X1Ds and they institute certain mass production techniques to get them out the door promptly, beautifully made and at a reasonable cost. What makes the X1D attractive to me is NOT its scarcity value.
 
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glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Not really. I am NOT speculating in explaining the business background for why the current owner wants out of Hasselblad, why DJI may want in, and why the change of control is NOT a portent of horrible things for Hasselblad. I know that from years of experience. That's hardly the same as providing a hard number as to the number of X1Ds Hasselblad is currently capable of making per month. Nobody other than Hasselblad has a clue. And it certainly doesn't make a wild guess any more accurate to reference Leica's experience with the S cameras. Did Leica have the number of preorders for the S that would compel them to ramp up production? Is the X1D as a mirrorless camera anywhere close to the S camera body (or a rangefinder M) in terms of complexity of manufacture? Did Leica have an owner like DJI that has experience with higher volume manufacturing?
Saying that Hasselblad can only make 100 X1Ds per month is simply provocative. It has zero basis in fact and completely contradicts any conceivable estimate as to the length of time it will take Hasselblad to fill the thousands of preorders. Unless of course you think Hasselblad is lying, in which case come out and say it.
I personally couldn't care less if Hasselblad makes a slew of X1Ds and they institute certain mass production techniques to get them out the door promptly, beautifully made and at a reasonable cost. What makes the X1D attractive to me is NOT its scarcity value.
Howard

There you go again throwing up completely false points attributed to others ..helps you make your case ..but not founded in either reality or logic .

Zero based in fact ...every fact provided was either absolutely accurate or a reasonable estimate . What part of a $30M company don t you get ! The way you estimate unit production capacity is to establish an average value of the midget produced . So for HB I used $10K wholesale value . (Use your own number if you like ) . Last year if HB sold 200 systems a month ..that would be $24M. appears about right to me

This is a skill that is necessary when negotiating with a supplier for example .

How hard is and how long does it take to ramp up production . Since I ve done this with many new product introductions,new plants and supplier arrangements .....any estimate I make is based on relevant experience .

We have comparible evidence in the history of Leica s new product introductions . I ve been to the plant ,talked with the employees outside of the formal channels and watch carefully how Leica approached the process. You can take the numbers I provided on Leica to the Bank ! They are accurate ,reasonable and relevant . WTF are you bringing to the discussion !

Please block me and I will do the same .
 

hcubell

Well-known member
Howard

There you go again throwing up completely false points attributed to others ..helps you make your case ..but not founded in either reality or logic .

Zero based in fact ...every fact provided was either absolutely accurate or a reasonable estimate . What part of a $30M company don t you get ! The way you estimate unit production capacity is to establish an average value of the midget produced . So for HB I used $10K wholesale value . (Use your own number if you like ) . Last year if HB sold 200 systems a month ..that would be $24M. appears about right to me





Please block me and I will do the same .
Throwing up completely false points attributed to others? Gee. I must have imagined that I read a post where the following statement was made: "Now let's throw in how many [X1Ds HB] can actually make per month for shipping. 100?" I really object to provocative statements that lack a shred of factual basis and whose sole function is to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt. And such statements more often than not seem to come from somebody who owns or is in the process of buying a directly competitive camera system. Check the facts to see if that's the case here.

Please feel free to block my posts. That's your prerogative. I can understand your suggestion that I block your posts, but I have no need to do so. Your posts don't trouble me that much. Moreover, if there are posts that I think are illogical or malicious, I want to be able to point that out.
 
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jduncan

Active member
Howard

Please ...almost everything in this thread is opinion ..including most of your posts. When you see an opinion that you don t agree with you call it “Speculation “ . Belittling others opinions isn t in the spirit of this forum.

The point Lou was trying to make was ..that HB is very small and is set up to hand make high end cameras . This is low volume ,exactly work done by skilled labor . If you have ever seen how they assemble Leica M bodies in Germany ...its small work stations ,organized into small groups (called manufacturing cells) . Leica was producing less than 50 M bodies a day when the M8 was introduced . It took them months to get to 1000 a month on the M8 and years to get to 1500 a month .

The S body by contrast was pegged at 100 month to start ..just as a frame of reference.

HB with 30 million in sales must be producing the H bodies in quantities closer to the S body . Just a quick reasonableness check .....assume sales value of $10k (wholesale) and you can see 100-200 per month is reasonable for a $30M company .

The point being made is that the challenges of ramping up manufacturing to achieve even the original 3000 units forecast is a important consideration in understanding HB.

Fuji by contrast have the people that know how to do this . They have years now of experience in introducing new products ,scaling production etc etc . They will approach the production of the GFX in quite a different way .

My background including doing projects with clients ..was exactly like the situation at HB . Nobody wants to hear my perspective ...I get it ....its depressing when we all want HB to be successful. I wish HB the very best in 2017 ..this is a critical product launch that will define the company and maybe the whole MF market .

Personally I don t want a mass produced product aimed at the high end of the DSLR market . I share the vision of the HB CEO .... a company focused on premium cameras ..with superior craftsmanship .
Hi,

I hope this does not sound rude (english is not my mother tongue) , but there is a difference between an opinion and speculation.
For example, I can say: I love small cameras. That is an opinion. This other: "I don't believe that they will be able to fulfill the demand". That's an opinion based on speculation unless it based on facts. We don't have the facts. Later on, people say that they were not speculating. That "I am not speculating" is problematic, because it turns the speculation into a "statement of fact" that could even lead to legal repercussions. So yes, he was speculating. So was the person that say that "The X1D sales probably do not generate a positive cash flow". The only difference is that the person of the 100s was doing a wild guess based on something (maybe Leica, maybe he don't know *for sure* about Leica either) the second comment about "positive cash flow" is speculation, but is just PhaseSpeach.

Best regards,

1. PhaseSpeach: Phase One's kingdom equivalent too Newspeak. Is designed to generate FUD around other camera companies (mostly Hasselblad), and induce a subconscious justification for Phase One's stratospheric prices.
 

Christopher

Active member
1. PhaseSpeach: Phase One's kingdom equivalent too Newspeak. Is designed to generate FUD around other camera companies (mostly Hasselblad), and induce a subconscious justification for Phase One's stratospheric prices.
What ? Come on this is getting ridiculous, I honestly think it's time to close it down. Why on earth is it now Phase fault that Hasselblad currently CANNOT produce more than a 100* cameras a month and that they screwed up the whole delivery process of the X1D ?!?

*at least for the past months incld. December, because if they could they would start shipping in more quantities.
 

jerome_m

Member
Do you really believe the reorganization of production arguement for the delays?
Yes, I do. If the camera sells unexpectedly well, production needs to be reorganised and that takes time.

They had no money for securing inventory/working capital is the best explanation for the delays.
That is unlikely. They are own by a company whose raison d'être is to secure capital and plan in advance.

DJI's infusion of more capital will not impact higher production immediately, it will take some time.
That is true.

For a small $30M annual sales company, how many total units do you believe they already make per month?
About 200 a month for the H series. They planned to build about the same number of X1D additionally.
 

BANKER1

Member
What ? Come on this is getting ridiculous, I honestly think it's time to close it down. Why on earth is it now Phase fault that Hasselblad currently CANNOT produce more than a 100* cameras a month and that they screwed up the whole delivery process of the X1D ?!?

*at least for the past months incld. December, because if they could they would start shipping in more quantities.
Not ridiculous at all in my opinion. He seems to have some salient points that make sense to me. What is ridiculous is the Phase vs. Hasselblad/Hasselblad vs. Phase. There are precious few customers for all MFD companies as it is. I have no clue why anyone would want Phase backs based on the facts that I know, but there are a whole lot of very creative and talented photographers who make jaw dropping images with Phase backs. I respect their work, so they must know something more than I do, and I should not question their choice in digital backs. I left LuLa many years ago, because the discussion devolved into this kind of discord. Please respect everyone's opinion, even when (in your opinion) they are wrong. Let's keep this site friendly and be kind to one another.

Regards,

Greg
 

hcubell

Well-known member
The bottom line here is that nobody commenting in this thread...nobody... has any hard factual information as to the number of X1Ds that Hasselblad is capable of producing now or over the next few months. Nobody here knows when DJI provided the additional funding to Hasselblad to expand production. Nobody here knows how long it will take Hasseblad to expand production from the time the capital comes in the door. Nobody here knows how much technical support DJI may be providing to Hasselblad. Nobody here knows what Hasselblad's goal is in terms of expanded monthly production. However, notwithstanding the lack of any hard factual data, somebody announces that Hasselblad can only produce 100 units per month. Do the math. If there are preorders for say 5,000 units, it will take Hasselblad over 4 years to fill the preorders. Alternatively, if you are saying that Hasselblad will be able to slowly increase production to 200 units per month, it will take say 2-3 years to fill the preorders. What's the basis for such dire predictions? Some conversations with Leica employees about Leica's experience in producing S camera bodies? I know Hasselblad is trying to spin the mystique of hand made production in Sweden, but I don't think assembling X1D bodies is equivalent to producing mechanical watches by hand at Patek Phillipe in Switzerland.
 

BANKER1

Member
Here is an interesting problem that no has yet brought forward. There are individuals (a nebulous number) who order cameras from multiple sources and cancel their other orders upon receiving delivery of a camera. I know for a fact that happened when the Leica M was announced and delivery was delayed. Hasselblad has to know this is the case with the X1D as well. Hopefully they have a handle on this as well as what future demand may be after the rush of preorders is fulfilled. They must know that they can't ramp up beyond future demand and still be able to expediently fulfill the number of preorders that are on the books. They have to be able to fulfill orders in a fairly timely manner and not overbuild production lines that exceed future demand. Sounds like Hasselblad is fighting fires on several fronts.

Regards,

Greg
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
The bottom line here is that nobody commenting in this thread...nobody... has any hard factual information as to the number of X1Ds that Hasselblad is capable of producing now or over the next few months. Nobody here knows when DJI provided the additional funding to Hasselblad to expand production. Nobody here knows how long it will take Hasseblad to expand production from the time the capital comes in the door. Nobody here knows how much technical support DJI may be providing to Hasselblad. Nobody here knows what Hasselblad's goal is in terms of expanded monthly production. However, notwithstanding the lack of any hard factual data, somebody announces that Hasselblad can only produce 100 units per month. Do the math. If there are preorders for say 5,000 units, it will take Hasselblad over 4 years to fill the preorders. Alternatively, if you are saying that Hasselblad will be able to slowly increase production to 200 units per month, it will take say 2-3 years to fill the preorders. What's the basis for such dire predictions? Some conversations with Leica employees about Leica's experience in producing S camera bodies? I know Hasselblad is trying to spin the mystique of hand made production in Sweden, but I don't think assembling X1D bodies is equivalent to producing mechanical watches by hand at Patek Phillipe in Switzerland.

Historically, I have heard that traditional medium format digital companies like Phase One/Hasselblad are capable of producing 100 - 200 digital backs/cameras per month. The bottlenecks not only would include personnel and facilities, but also suppliers (positive yields from sensor suppliers, for example). So - this 100 per month number to me doesn't seem unrealistic.

However, if it's true Hasselblad projected 3,000 units for the X1D, they would likely have already made arrangements for increased monthly production. But if the pre-orders are indeed in the 5,000 - 10,000 unit range, then they would necessarily need to make a lot of changes to those initial considerations to produce the increased capability to ship within a reasonable amount of time, and as someone said, this adjustment would take some time.

Traditionally, new digital backs/cameras start shipping in small numbers (I would guess 40-60 per month), and then eventually ramp up to 100-200 per month). If Hasselblad was thinking 3,000 units per year and the number turned out to be 10,000 - 12,000 units per year, that is indeed an unforeseen problem that would have significant consequences. It would require a complete re-think on the costs and methodology of production. This second round of DJI investment could have been planned from the very beginning. Or, it could have come about as the production situation became starkly clearer to both parties. No one knows for sure.

In any event - with DJI did making a second substantial investment, they seem to be firmly committed to Hasselblad, and a huge part of that commitment has to be tied to their subjective interest in the success of the X1D, and the production of the X1D, which is central to Hasselblad's current product strategy.


* Don't shoot me, I'm not trying to throw facts out there, or speculation. I'm only relaying what I have come to understand in recent years, with regard to production ramp ups with these companies.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

algrove

Well-known member
Watch out Steve, now you are being pessimistic and no one here wants to hear that 100-200 per month is a number that you seem to know is produced by each major MF manufacturer.

However, it seems you have put forth some numbers with sufficient background in the MF field to make a case.
 
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Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Watch out Steve, now you are being pessimistic and no one here wants to hear that 100-200 per month is a number that you seem to know is produced by major MF manufacturers.

Not at all - the number of medium format digital backs/cameras sold annually has been thought to be in the 6,000 - 9,000 range for years and years.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

hcubell

Well-known member
Watch out Steve, now you are being pessimistic and no one here wants to hear that 100-200 per month is a number that you seem to know is produced by each major MF manufacturer.

However, it seems you have put forth some numbers with sufficient background in the MF field to make a case.
Try reading what Steve said more carefully and not distorting it to prove your point. Steve described what historically been the level of production for the high end camera systems by Phase and Hasselblad...100-200 per month. Hasselblad, he said, had presumably planned initially for an annual production level of 3,000 X1Ds, but later discovered that the preorders required a significantly higher level of production. The question, then, is what has Hasselblad done to achieve those higher levels. Steve says he doesn't know. He is honest. I don't either. However, you seem to know the answer, and that is that Hasselblad is stuck producing 100-200 X1Ds per month. Why would you feel obliged to assert such negative speculation? Is it in any way connected with your preorder of a Fuji GFX?
 

Christopher

Active member
It would also makes sense that their target was to produce 250 cameras per month. Or let's say it like that: their estimation was 3000 in a year, which would play out quite nicely with 200-300 a year. So it only make sense that if preorders are so much higher they have to make changes to get to higher numbers.

What COULD also be a limiting factor is the CMOS chip, but who knows if they have them laying around are producing them on demand.
 

jerome_m

Member
What COULD also be a limiting factor is the CMOS chip, but who knows if they have them laying around are producing them on demand.
Actually, we know that Hasselblad had a large inventory of 50 MP chips at the time of the earthquake last year, because they offered customers who ordered a H6D-100c to use a H6D-50c for a few months.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
All I know is that more available liquid cash to Hasselblad, the better for all of us. No they can't ramp up production 10x but heck, in my experience of venture cash and injections, they'll do what they can to maximize their investment over the next 3-5 years. (I work for a VC / private equity invested company to the tune of $1.4B and we've been through three cycles of invest / divest / invest etc - and we're still doing great as a multi - $bn company)

If you want a great camera, and are prepared to wait a while (ugh, I hate it), we'll have a great camera. Hopefully Hasselblad will be stronger and more innovative going forward, and my preferred vendor Phase One will have substantive competition which I think in every way is good for all of us.
 
May I point out that just because DJI has supposedly increased their stake in Hasselblad does not mean Hasselblad itself got any of that money unless those who were sold were owned by Hasselblad. I thought Hasselblad was completely bought out by some other Asian company many years ago?
 

algrove

Well-known member
Try reading what Steve said more carefully and not distorting it to prove your point. Steve described what historically been the level of production for the high end camera systems by Phase and Hasselblad...100-200 per month. Hasselblad, he said, had presumably planned initially for an annual production level of 3,000 X1Ds, but later discovered that the preorders required a significantly higher level of production. The question, then, is what has Hasselblad done to achieve those higher levels. Steve says he doesn't know. He is honest. I don't either. However, you seem to know the answer, and that is that Hasselblad is stuck producing 100-200 X1Ds per month. Why would you feel obliged to assert such negative speculation? Is it in any way connected with your preorder of a Fuji GFX?
You sure lecture. Maybe YOU try to read what Steve said more carefully. Is his post negative to you?

First, Steve mentioned that 100 units of X1D per month was realistic. Ramping up from that is a long process and not over night, as you must know if you any manufacturing experience as many on this thread do have. I hope they can do it sooner than later from their current total capacity.

Next I have no pre-order for the Fuji GFX in place, but I might have a pre-order for for this camera.
 

pegelli

Well-known member
The bottom line here is that nobody commenting in this thread...nobody... has any hard factual information as to the number of X1Ds that Hasselblad is capable of producing now or over the next few months.
I addition I would say that ....nobody.... in this thread (or in the equivalent threads on LuLa) has any facts or hard evidence that Kevin Raber's intention was to spread FUD on Hasselblad in order to promote his previous employer (Phase One) or another MF brand (Fuji). I have no problem with people who disagree with Kevin's opinion in the article he wrote, that's not the point. But trying to reinforce this differing opinion by personally attacking Kevin and speculating on his intentions in my mind only weakens the case that person is trying to make.
 
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