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Thread: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

  1. #101
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Couldn't agree more with this Marc. I've had my kit over a year and still learning it's nuances.
    BIG ditto.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Couldn't agree more with this Marc. I've had my kit over a year and still learning it's nuances.
    Should it really have to be this way?

    What if you could just pick up a camera, shoot, and get great results with less work? Sounds like one of those idealistic alternative energy ads from big oil that have been gracing our TV screens in the last year or so...

    The S2 is simple to use. It is straightforward and works like a camera should. The camera shouldn't get in the way. It shouldn't complicate matters. I know that many photographers struggle with MF and its quirks (er... I mean nuances ). My point is, why?

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Should it really have to be this way?

    What if you could just pick up a camera, shoot, and get great results with less work? Sounds like one of those idealistic alternative energy ads from big oil that have been gracing our TV screens in the last year or so...

    The S2 is simple to use. It is straightforward and works like a camera should. The camera shouldn't get in the way. It shouldn't complicate matters. I know that many photographers struggle with MF and its quirks (er... I mean nuances ). My point is, why?

    David
    Gee, I didn't know people were already shooting with the S2 and already know all about it. If it's a camera without quirks it'll be a first for Leica.

    Don't know about you, but with every camera I've ever owned, I got better with it as I spent time with it. These days we've been on the "upgrade" treadmill, and the cycles became coloser and closer. New stuff added each time. New stuff to master and apply.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    I cant wait to see the thing launched and all the questions answered - whether we like the answers or not...

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I cant wait to see the thing launched and all the questions answered - whether we like the answers or not...
    Same here.

    After all my investigations of Digital MF systems so far my picture rounds up like that - note that the order does not mean any preference:

    Hasselblad - pretty mature WRT lenses and leaf shutter, great preference by many Pro's (whatever that means), great marketing, good cameras, but so far only till Crop 1.1, not quite clear whay they did not take the same step like Phase and directly introduce a FF 60MP back, Phocus a prett good SW

    Phase One - seems to be market leader WRT backs, camera system is Mamiya and this is good, has already focal plane shutter and a new model is going to come this summer for leaf shutter, digital lenses awesome, but not yet the lineup as Hasselblad, Capture One Pro is for me clear superior compared to Phocus and they have much longer experience in this. Today this system would be somehow my preference if I had to buy right now

    Leica - very promising, if we assume that all will work then camera surely the best what will exist, lenses superior to anything else on the market, they will have leaf shutter as well as focal plane shutter from the beginning! SW will be Capture One, which is clearly best, uncertainity is their execution, speed and future directions - still would be tempted to buy this system, not sure why, maybe masochism

    Of curse a big argument for me would be if Leica sells the S2 for around €10.000.- to €12.000.- body only - not sure if this would ever happen, but that would make me really weak.....

    Just my own and very subjective conclusions so far
    Last edited by ptomsu; 19th April 2009 at 05:04.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Pete - it all depends on what and how you shoot - as well as what gear you already have. You are in a very good position - starting out with no legacy issues. I have had a lot of fun playing with MFD systems over teh last few years. No doubt I could have saved a lot of money - waiting - but then again I couldn't predict the massive discounts offered today - last year!

    I am currently finishing my personal analysis of the Sinar/Hy6 system - like the P45+ mamiya body and lenses - I am testing teh Sinar against Hasselblad H3D11-39 - which is my benchmark MF system

    A 1.1 X crop factor in the 39 megapixel backs is no big deal - for that matter I dont 'mind' the 1.3X crop that the Sinar 75 gives me.

    My experience is that all the high end backs deliver pretty much the same excellent files. Some differences in the GUI of the various software packages and yes maybe Phocus isnt as fancy as C1 - but then again C1 isn't as fancy as Photoshop for post raw conversion work.

    The software is all about tethered shooting and teh manufacturers base line view on what their files should look like. The more you get into this stuff - the less you care about flim flams.

    No doubt in my mind that the Schneider / Rodenstock glass on my Alpa - is the bees knees for resolution, colour and contrast.

    The more I shoot with my old M8 - the more I am tempted to buy an M8.2 - in fact I think I will. The more I shoot with my Alpa - the more I see the greatest benefit from my high megapixel backs.

    I think that Schneider and Zeiss glass I use on my Hy6 Rollie mount - draws better than Fujiblad - however the system is compromised by question marks about the manufacturing situation - as well as exorbitant pricing.

    I am very tempted by the S2 because it is a leica - I am wary of teh S2 - because it will be a Leica.

    At the end of the day - pretty much any one of these systems gives me more capability than I can use - and ( ironically) I still make my highest hit rate with prints - using film on MF or 35mm.

    there is no wrong decision IMHO - each system requires some mucking around and compromise. Today I would say take care in yoru choice - and make the number one issue - your idea about which company will survive. regarding higher and higher megapixels- I dont need them and I dont use them - so I don't care. I currently own 3 digi backs - CFV11/H3d11-39/Sinar 75LV - forcedto choose - I'd stay with the blad. You shouls seriously consider starting with a 22 megapixel back like Guys in P25+ or a Sinar 54LV or a Leaf equivalent or even a blad 31 megapixel- second hand they are cheap and great value - choose your system and go!

    There really isnt much difference between teh 22/39 backs except for landscape work ( maybe if that).

    Good luck.
    Last edited by PeterA; 19th April 2009 at 05:58.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Hm,

    I see the advantages in price of the P25+.

    Although I will check the prices, but think in order to start for digital MF landscape a P45+ seems to be the better choice.

    But I will check, depends on how good the P25+ prices are

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Buy used to start and if you want to move up than just sell the back you still have the body and the glass. Prices are good trust me. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    The P45+ used with full guarantee by Phase (obviously checked and serviced) plus camera plus 80 comes for €15.990.-

    Very attractive price too compared to where it has been ....

    Think you are completely right, I will buy used back first! Then the loss n any case is much lower compared to buying new.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Hm,

    I see the advantages in price of the P25+.

    Although I will check the prices, but think in order to start for digital MF landscape a P45+ seems to be the better choice.

    But I will check, depends on how good the P25+ prices are
    Hi Peter:

    This may be a good time for me to add some direct landscape print experience for you to ponder in your current decision matrix.

    When Guy, Lance and I tested the P65+ back, we made several images where we simply swapped out each back onto the camera without moving it, then also moved the camera forward a bit with the P65+ back so as to equalize image magnification. As such, we had as similar a real-life shooting situation as one can do in the field, at the same time limiting as many variables as practical (same lens, same camera, same image, same light and same exposure).

    With these images created, I then pulled them into C1 and processed them as ideally as possible by balancing color temp to the same gray patch in each image, then adjusted exposure so that the same area of clear blue sky shared the same average luminance value as the P45+ zero value. There were no fully-blown whites in any file. FWIW, this resulted in a +0.1 exposure difference for P25+, and a -0.2 difference for the P65+, for a net +0.3 difference between P25+ and P65+. I then output them to CS4 and processed them each for both 32" and 48" prints.

    Here is a summary of the results:

    Detail. At 32", you could only detect the slightest difference in detail -- like your nose in the print at 6" subtle -- between the P25+ and P45+/P65+ when the images were compared side-by-side. There was essentially no discernible difference between the P45+ and P65+ at that print size. At 48", there was a bit more gap now betwen the P25+ and the others, and a very slight gain to the P65+. Again, this was such a subtle difference that I doubt even 10% of photographers could tell which was which if the prints were not compared side-by-side. This surprised me. At any rate, at this size the difference in detail became a bit more noticeable in the side-by-side between the P45+ and P65+, though still slight.

    Tonality. This was interesting. The P25+ had less total DR by about 1/4 stop than the P45+, and the P45+ about 1/4 stop less DR than the P65+. This was derived by measuring the same low shadow tone in each file. However, there was a "look" to the P25+ file that was clearly superior to the P45+ and P65+ -- the look which prompted the "magic of the 9 micron pixel" thread. Here I found that that I needed to bump up the clarity slider of the P45+ file about 20 points, and the P65+ about 40 points to match the look of the P25+ file. And when I did that, the increase in micro-contrast reduced total DR back to identical in all files(!)

    Color. The P65+ renders color differently than either the P25+ or P45+, which render color almost identically. I will not say one is better or worse, as color is very subjective, but feel it is important to note they are different.

    My conclusion was thus: If you are not going to print larger than 32" single file most of the time and only occasionally to 48" or larger from a single file, then the P25+ is more than adequate. If you are going to regularly print to 48" and larger from a single file, the P45+ or P65+ are probably worth the extra $$$. (Stitching is a different story.)

    Hope that helps,
    Jack
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    The P45+ used with full guarantee by Phase (obviously checked and serviced) plus camera plus 80 comes for €15.990.-

    Thats 20800 US as of today. You can do the same with a P25+ for 8k less. Warranty is out end of May though. Just a thought and now i will stay out of this because I am starting to sound like a used car salesman. Either way think about used to start it is a nice way to get in see if it is your cup of tea or not. For some people it is not and if your on the fence than it is less risk at the end of the day.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Guy,

    Some clarification please... Per your ad in the B&S, you are selling your total kit with the back, body and 80 for $12,000, right? So to be accurate, that is $8800, or almost $9K less than the P45+ deal referenced above...
    Jack
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Peter

    There are some wonderful used MFD bargains out there at the moment. I recently managed to source an essentially new H3D11-22 - 49 clicks! - direct from Hasselblad for little more than a Nikon D3X. Everything the folk here have said about these 22MP backs is true, they deliver remarkable image quality at a remarkable price.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Guy,

    Some clarification please... Per your ad in the B&S, you are selling your total kit with the back, body and 80 for $12,000, right? So to be accurate, that is $8800, or almost $9K less than the P45+ deal referenced above...
    That is correct 12k gets you a back, phase one body and 80 D lens. Most likely sell my 35 and 55 lenses as well since I really want the 45mm with the P30 plus.

    Thanks for picking up on that. I'm cleaning the house before my wife comes home being gone 10 days and running around
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Thanks folks,

    especially your findings about the P25+ back are really valuable for me!

    I will further check all of this when I talk to my local dealer here in Austria and see which prices I can get. Definitely a used solution is what I see now as very good for me.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    The Leica S2 is not a serious pro's tool in my view. Its a status symbol to grace the deck of a yacht, or to be thrown casually in the back of one's Ferrari. That red dot! Gosh, money!

    That is, unless it comes in below $10k, when a few well-healed but not uber rich enthususiast might consider it. Why on earth would a true working pro give it a second glance unless it is priced much more reasonably than expected (and assuming it is ever released)?

    Quentin
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quentin,
    Your perspectives are quite correct. However, there does appear to be a place for the S2 in a pro's kit, or as the pro's kit. There are a lot of shooters now using 35mm DSLRs, myself included, that are looking for more, and not just the cost part. They are also NOT looking for the MF maze of parts and complications, plus they are looking for more of the handling of the DSLRs. While there is not much doubt that the existing MF kits are probably more capable all the way around, there still are things that they cannot do as well, nor maybe fit as well in how some folks prefer to shoot.

    For somebody that already has an extensive MF kit, I would think the S2 would be something one might look at with interest, but see some shortcomings. For somebody without any MF kit, or a very limited one, the S2 could become a serious system for their shooting needs, especially if those folks have come from 35mm DSLR solutions and systems. It will not replace all of the MF capabilities, yet it does offer some things that even the top end MF rigs are not yet doing, plus more pixels and resolution than anything on the DSLR side of things.

    Your point (also made by others) about "assuming it is ever released", is a valid one for sure. The other one about the pricing is probably the biggest concern most folks have. We will not know how good, bad, ugly, or great it is until it is released, or at least in the hands of some testers that are allowed to thoroughly report on it....AND post some images, plus we get some idea on a price. At this point, everything else is speculation, wishing, criticizing, praising, etc. On paper, the ideas look very interesting at the least. The prototypes folks have handled have impressed most. The system line-up, though incomplete, is not a bad start. The images folks have seen prints of have not failed to impress, but until things get more locked down and released, nobody knows for sure.

    Like you, I am rooting for a seriously competitive entry price for the S2. I would love it to become a true professional camera, rather than the typical overpriced status symbol or collector's kit. Nothing wrong with those concepts, but they seem like a huge waste for what otherwise could be a very seriously useful camera system.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    "Assuming it is ever released?" Does Leica have a history of announcing and showing preproduction models of cameras and then not releasing them? If they've done that in the past, I'd appreciate some information on what undelivered products they announced and when. Even speculation ought to have some limits.
    Last edited by stephengilbert; 19th April 2009 at 15:01.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    The Leica S2 is not a serious pro's tool in my view. Its a status symbol to grace the deck of a yacht, or to be thrown casually in the back of one's Ferrari. That red dot! Gosh, money!

    That is, unless it comes in below $10k, when a few well-healed but not uber rich enthususiast might consider it. Why on earth would a true working pro give it a second glance unless it is priced much more reasonably than expected (and assuming it is ever released)?

    Quentin
    I think that's an odd attitude.
    Surely it's success should depend on how good it is . . . and if it's an also ran for twice the price of the competition THEN they'll have to depend on the ferrari crowd.

    But if it produces MF quality in a dSLR sized body with dSLR handling, then I think there are people who'll want it. Even if it's expensive.

    As Stephen says - why suggest it might not be released?

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Leica = Passion.

    High meg DSLRs are much smaller now days ... when the D700X hits the streets and joins the D5-II along with the A900 (and its next iteration) ... then size will not be the comparison point.

    Frankly, my integrated MFD already acts like a DSLR in many of the critical areas of operation, and is getting better with each new development ... so, IMO, the S2 will have to be AS good as my Nikons at AF and shooting speed, or there is little to gain and lot of cash to lose.

    So, as I've mentioned before, it'll come down to IQ ... with some pretty stiff MFD competition in that arena also. But Leica glass has always been the tipping point, so we'll have to wait and see.

    I agree that I can't recall an impending launch without follow through from Leica ... but I also cannot remember an economy this bad either, and I've been around awhile.

    I'm inclined as a professional that could well use a camera like the S2, to not indulge in it for reasons of money, and for being abandoned by Leica with a very expensive DMR and the whole system that was dedicated to it.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    in fairness, maybe the entire phrase "assuming it is released" should be accompanied by more caveats. Leica has a lot invested in the S2 at this point. Prototypes exist, lenses exist, meaning there is probably more than just the prototype build line in place. They are still talking "late Summer 2009" or so. The economy is grim. The price floor also dropped quite a bit with Hasselblad and Phase/Mamiya announcing their repricing on things. In other words, things are not even close to what may have been used in manufacturing and profitability calculations when the S2 was conceived and later announced. So, Leica could decide to sit on release for a while, hoping the economy recovers enough to get folks being able to spend again. The gamble there is whether they would have lost any more ground on their plans for a new market entrant, and whether the tech going into the presently designed S2 would really start to be outdated. Would they release something that was even further behind the curve, at a later date? Or, would the S2 become the S2.2 or S3 by the time they got it out the door? Not an easy call on that.

    With respect to Leica not releasing something they have announced....well, we do not have the full frame M8/M9 that was talked about and "promised" before. We do not have the successor to the R9 as was promised for some time. In fairness, there is supposed to be a significant revamp, utilizing the new tech gained from the S2 line, etc., but no mention of when or even if anymore. There was never the updates promised for the DMR, as far as I can tell. So, in a sense, they have made announcements for things that have not materialized, for various reasons. The point being, that the S2 could be delayed a lot, shelved, or transformed into something else. Maybe not so likely, but as Marc said, none of us have ever seen an economy like what we are in right now, and the Fortune 500 companies have lost 84% of their collective values since last year. My accountant commented that the average losses posted by his well-off clients was 47% of their portfolios. That is not insignificant.

    Anyway, I am trying to take a more optimistic perspective on things, but am always being grounded by the reality that surrounds us when new clients are harder to come by and old ones are not spending but a fraction of what they used to. If the S2 comes into this environment at 2007-2008 Leica premium prices, they may not sell very many at all....even to the Ferrari folks, as those folks may no have their Ferraris any longer either ;-)

    LJ

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    I would love to know when and where a FF M8 or M9 was promised. I think Leica has acknowledged that at some point the technology might be in place to produce one but I have never seen or heard of them promising one.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by TimWright View Post
    I would love to know when and where a FF M8 or M9 was promised. I think Leica has acknowledged that at some point the technology might be in place to produce one but I have never seen or heard of them promising one.
    I think the inverse is what is true - all the M users (plus others) have promised to buy a full frame digital M if it is produced!!!

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    WRT Leica rolling out and supporting products, there is a history and unfortunately a very bad one over the last years.

    FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO FORTUNATELY HAVE NOT MADE THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES IN THAT HISTORY PLEASE READ - AND ENJOY!

    1) DMR was promised since 2001 and hit the shelves 2005 (far too late). Cold be only delivered in small numbers and half of them had issues with the bodies they were attached to.

    2) DMR firmware was "no support" for me. Far too less updates in much too long time intervals and the main issue - WB - they NEVER managed

    3) Suddenly and without any signs the DMR was no longer available and later the complete R System was stopped. And this was really unexpected. And no path into the future was and is shown so far!

    4) The M8 came to the market with SERIOUS flaws - IR filter!

    5) Many of the M glass, which is great on film is not so great on digital - see 1.4/35 ASPH.

    6) They bring the Ferrari lenses for M (1.4 wides and faster Nocti) instead of a M9 FF

    7) Many of the M's have (had) to be resent several times to CS in order to make them work well and ok within their spec's.

    Now think S System and S2.

    a) If it also comes 2 years or even longer after initial promise to the market (like DMR) it will be there around 2012.

    b) If it has flaws like the DMR and the M8 (and Leica has and could not prove so far they can do better, it is all our wishful thinking alone) then it will take another 1-2 years till they do things right.

    c) If price history is right, then the S System will be priced equally or most likely more expensive than current MF solutions. All with the hint it is Leica and Leica is better etc etc

    d) We do not know about their service and support strategy, they still have to prove it works over the next years.

    e) And finally, they have to prove they continue the S System and not just introduce on the market, sell to some wealthy folks, like DMR or D-System and than let the systems disappear.

    In the end of the day - who is going to trust again and invest in high priced products of such a company? Especially in such tough economic times? And if we all know the product can in best case perform well if all the issues listed above can be neglected? Which is not the case?

    As you can see thy burned me badly!!!

  25. #125
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    You can make a list like this for Mamiya/Phase, for Hasselblad, for Canon... you are mixing unfulfilled promises, unfulfilled hopes, and skepticism. These are all potential issues, but the only one which discusses unfulfilled announcements is 1), and the DMR was announced in 2003 and was in the hands of users in 2005. The S2 was announced for the end of the summer, i.e. no later than September. Let's see what happens.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Peter,
    I think you forgot 2 points:
    Both, the DMR and the M8 have offered (and still do) class leading image quality at lower ISOs.(M8 up to 640 ISO)
    If we let max resolution (for big prints) aside I am still convinced that both M8 and DMR in combination with excellent Leica lenses surpass the IQ I can get with my D3x. Leica has fixed all M8 issues.


    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    WRT Leica rolling out and supporting products, there is a history and unfortunately a very bad one over the last years.

    FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO FORTUNATELY HAVE NOT MADE THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES IN THAT HISTORY PLEASE READ - AND ENJOY!

    1) DMR was promised since 2001 and hit the shelves 2005 (far too late). Cold be only delivered in small numbers and half of them had issues with the bodies they were attached to.

    2) DMR firmware was "no support" for me. Far too less updates in much too long time intervals and the main issue - WB - they NEVER managed

    3) Suddenly and without any signs the DMR was no longer available and later the complete R System was stopped. And this was really unexpected. And no path into the future was and is shown so far!

    4) The M8 came to the market with SERIOUS flaws - IR filter!

    5) Many of the M glass, which is great on film is not so great on digital - see 1.4/35 ASPH.

    6) They bring the Ferrari lenses for M (1.4 wides and faster Nocti) instead of a M9 FF

    7) Many of the M's have (had) to be resent several times to CS in order to make them work well and ok within their spec's.

    Now think S System and S2.

    a) If it also comes 2 years or even longer after initial promise to the market (like DMR) it will be there around 2012.

    b) If it has flaws like the DMR and the M8 (and Leica has and could not prove so far they can do better, it is all our wishful thinking alone) then it will take another 1-2 years till they do things right.

    c) If price history is right, then the S System will be priced equally or most likely more expensive than current MF solutions. All with the hint it is Leica and Leica is better etc etc

    d) We do not know about their service and support strategy, they still have to prove it works over the next years.

    e) And finally, they have to prove they continue the S System and not just introduce on the market, sell to some wealthy folks, like DMR or D-System and than let the systems disappear.

    In the end of the day - who is going to trust again and invest in high priced products of such a company? Especially in such tough economic times? And if we all know the product can in best case perform well if all the issues listed above can be neglected? Which is not the case?

    As you can see thy burned me badly!!!

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Peter,
    I think you forgot 2 points:
    Both, the DMR and the M8 have offered (and still do) class leading image quality at lower ISOs.(M8 up to 640 ISO)
    If we let max resolution (for big prints) aside I am still convinced that both M8 and DMR in combination with excellent Leica lenses surpass the IQ I can get with my D3x. Leica has fixed all M8 issues.
    "Class leading" is subjective. I'd agree with-in the bounds of a very narrow band of conditions ... so narrow that one is forced to also have alternatives ... like your D3X.

    DMR: not useful for fast work, low light work, flash work (no TTL), wide angle work (crop frame), and any larger applications, no longer supported with updates, the system it's dedicated to is now out of production. When constrained to that degree, there are other choices like a simple 22 meg AF MFD that out-perform it in both speed and IQ. Not to mention use of R or Zeiss lenses on a 35mm FF DSLR camera with a high ISO sensor using fat pixels ... like a D700.

    Plus, (purely subjectively) the DMR IQ has been challenged by the upstart Sony A900 using some pretty darned good Zeiss AF optics and few of the constraints ... at a fraction of the cost.

    I liked my DMR, but it was an extravagance befitting the fat indulgent years, not the lean ones were are in now. It was neither fish nor fowl and unusable for 90% of the "Real World" work that puts bread on the table.

    In retrospect, the DMR was launched crippled ... it was the second time I fell for the IQ misdirection (the Contax ND was the other), but did I learn my lesson?, noooooo ... they were followed by a third strike: the M8. Three strikes and I'm out. I'm now a card carrying skeptic.

    I didn't realize the M8 had been fixed. No IR filters needed anymore? No 6 bit coding anymore? No crop frame that turns a expensive W/As into a normal field of view? No more focus shift from the 35 Lux? No more freakin' specular highlight reflections ruining images from having to use the IR filter? Wahoo! Maybe I can return to using my M8 for the reasons I originally paid through the nose for.

    Get real

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    The M8 beat the D3X for IQ? I'd love to see that.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  29. #129
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Neither the DMR nor the M8 are fixed!

    You can decide to live with their flaws and then within their area of proper functioning they are great, but these areas are small (too small for me).

    But folks, I am starting to struggle with another issue here - the Phase prices and support in general: listen to the following ....

    1) H3D2 /80 / 39MP / new for €14.990. versus Phase One /80/ P45+ refurbished for €15.990. or same thing new for €19.990.- These are €5.000.- difference and NOBODY can convince me that the Phase solution is SO MUCH BETTER than the Hassi solution (if at all better) to justify this big difference!

    2) Phase support versus Hasselblad support (at least here in Austria):

    Phase: there is 1 guy at the Austrian dealer who knows the product, but as I say it is one person. How to handle all the requests even from small, little, tiny Austria? There is a German person responsible for the region, but as I say the region is Germany, Austria and I do not know what else - maybe Swiss and this is not enough again.

    Hasselblad: there is a dedicated Hasselblad representative in Austria, they mainly sell Hasselblad and some tripods and flash systems, but that's it. And there are more than 1 people there who know the product range and who you can ask, so finally in the end of the day a much much better support.

    And PLEASE, don't get me wrong, I do not blame the 2 guys on the Phase One distribution side, as they are VERY knowledgeable and friendly, but they cannot split themselves and do not scale for such an expensive and complicated product solution! Phase needs to adress this, and if they do not I will be out of this gane!

    Now - if we speculate what will happen with the S System - Leica has a contract with Phase, I think they will also use the Phase distributor network. If this is true, then "no thank you!"

    I do not want for this amount of money I will spend to wait on the telephone till I get someone who can talk to me and is on my level but is already stressed b the next call or customer coming in. Sorry, no! I want someone pick my call almost immediately and say friendly: "What can I do for you Mr. Tomsu?"

    Also if this sounds arrogant, it derives purely from experience of my life and I am not going to play the waiting game in support if I already have to pay the fool-tax upfront
    Last edited by ptomsu; 20th April 2009 at 04:19.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    [QUOTE=

    I didn't realize the M8 had been fixed. No IR filters needed anymore? No 6 bit coding anymore? No crop frame that turns a expensive W/As into a normal field of view? No more focus shift from the 35 Lux? No more freakin' specular highlight reflections ruining images from having to use the IR filter? Wahoo! Maybe I can return to using my M8 for the reasons I originally paid through the nose for.

    Get real [/QUOTE]

    I didn't realize the M8 was broken. I have no problem with the IR filters. I gladly put up with this in favor of image quality. The AA filter on my 1dsmk3 is horrible. Crop also doesn't bother me although I can see where it would for some but everyone who bought one knows it is a crop camera. If you want problems get a Canon both of mine just spent 4 weeks in for the focus problem. One sent back with a message "Number not within range" no other explanation even canon cannot tell me what it means. My Canon stuff has spent far more time in service than my M8. Granted I may have been luckier than some but in the half dozen people that I know with an M8 only 1 has had to go in as the range fider was off slightly.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by TimWright View Post
    I didn't realize the M8 was broken. I have no problem with the IR filters. I gladly put up with this in favor of image quality. The AA filter on my 1dsmk3 is horrible. Crop also doesn't bother me although I can see where it would for some but everyone who bought one knows it is a crop camera. If you want problems get a Canon both of mine just spent 4 weeks in for the focus problem. One sent back with a message "Number not within range" no other explanation even canon cannot tell me what it means. My Canon stuff has spent far more time in service than my M8. Granted I may have been luckier than some but in the half dozen people that I know with an M8 only 1 has had to go in as the range fider was off slightly.
    So obviously experiences differ significantly, as I see the whole situation almost 180 degree opposite to you

  32. #132
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Well, there is not much reason to spar verbally, clearly everyone has their own experience. My experience with the M8, and that of people around me, has been almost uniformly positive, apart from the IR issue and one or two other glitches.

    Peter, it is also my experience as I tried to track down Phase prices that the Hasselblads were cheaper, and equal or better in most ways (lens lineup, tilt-shift solution, leaf shutters (two-edged sword), user upgradeable firmware, brighter viewfinder, faster AF, ...), except long exposure, which is sadly what I am looking for.

    The Phase/Leica relationship I believe is only about access to Capture One, not about distribution or sales. Selected top Leica dealers will receive extended training with the S2, and I don't know what happens beyond that. I presume that some sales personnel from Leica will at least try to get the S2 into the rental channels, at least in the largest markets.

    But there is another perspective here. Leica is trying to position the S2 as a super-DSLR, with very high quality (but not the ISO of a D3, nor the shooting rate of the 1D3, to say the least). If they succeed in this, support for this camera will be much less crucial than the current MF market. I hope that they succeed, but it is admittedly an open question.
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    The DMR was developed and produced in collaboration with Imacon. Leica was not their top priority so development schedules were continually pushed back. As to why DMR production and firmware updates stopped... easy, Imacon was merged into Hasselblad. Hasselblad reigned in resources to work on in-house projects and Leica was left high and dry with no recourse. As others have mentioned, the DMR still produces phenomenal results. Perhaps some might recall a certain thread comparing the 10MP DMR to the 16.7MP 1dsII, where the DMR posted superior and more pleasing results consistently, despite the Canon having a 67% pixel advantage with a larger FF sensor.

    The R lenses will be able to be used on the next R camera, which will come next year as Leica has already said. New AF R lenses will take the system forward. I don't see Leica abandoning R at all. They just decided they could have more market impact by getting the S2 out first. All the technology is shared between S and R, so it is pretty safe to assume that the next R camera will be a baby S2. If the S2 is as good as it promises to be (and as good as I've experienced personally in the prototypes), the R will be equally so, just in a smaller format.

    The M8 and now M8.2 has been my daily camera for the last 2+ years. It travels with me wherever I go and I am continually surprised at the quality such a small camera produces. I don't mind the IR filters and haven't had a single camera problem myself. Out of the many, many M8s that I've sold, none had electrical/freezing issues and only a few (M8s, not any M8.2s so far) had misaligned rangefinders. Since I tested them with my customers before they left the store (or shipped them out), I was able to just swap these ones out with a new, perfect one, and send the one with bad rangefinder back to Leica. I guess this falls under working with a good dealer from the start, just like with MFD.

    Would I like a FF M9 with lower noise beyond 640 ISO and a bit higher resolution? Of course, but I am not suffering today and I routinely make outstanding 20x30 prints from my photos. I use a WATE and am totally satisfied with the wide angle coverage at 16mm. I don't shoot sports and have no more need for additional fps.

    And, just as Leica worked with Imacon on the DMR, they partnered with MFD company Jenoptik to design the hardware and firmware of the M8. Kodak sold them on the IR filtration on the CCD being adequate (I've seen the spectral sensitivity chart and the IR allowed to pass certainly looks minuscule and insignificant). I was a beta tester for the M8 back in August 2006. Shooting over 1000 shots in four days, from a professional location fashion shoot with strobes, to street shooting, night shooting, and whatever I could point a camera at, I never noticed the IR issue. Why not? The reason was simple - no one wears black synthetic fabrics in August in Miami! Once winter hit up north and the black fleece came out, all bets were off.

    FWIW, I've tested a Nikon D70 and it has IR bleed that is far worse than the M8. Test one for yourself to see. The D70/D70s was one of the most successful DSLRs ever for Nikon, selling about 1 million cameras. No one noticed. No one cared. Yes, the Leica was 5 times the price, so it was held to a higher standard. Leica didn't have to provide two free IR filters, but it was the right thing to do once the problem was identified.

    With the S2, Leica has learned their lessons of the past working with technology partners. The S2 was developed and designed 100% in-house with fresh new talent working side-by-side with experienced camera engineers. The S2 went from a drawing board idea to full-working prototypes with real lenses in less than six months (April 08 - Sept 08). We probably would have seen the S2 earlier (and possibly an M9 and/or R10 as well) if Steven Lee hadn't been at the reigns. He shelved the AFRIKa project indefinitely a few months before he was removed from power. He also rushed the M8 to market before it could be thoroughly tested and vetted. His philosophy was that it was better to be on time than to be 100% right. Luckily, Lee is no longer calling the shots. Since Christian Erhardt has taken over Service in the USA, turnaround time has been reduced to 50% of what it was. He successfully orchestrated over 1000 M8 upgrades in the US with an average turnaround of one week. Christian is currently putting an S2 support staff together and organizing the professional service necessary for a product like the S2.

    A lot of money, thought, and planning has gone into the S2. It will be on time and it will be done right. The already stable platform in prototype stage will be that much more so in the production model. I understand the skepticism to some degree based on past misgivings, but I'm confident, based on what I've seen and what I know, that the S2 will be a reliable, dependable, robust, and truly professional system. Pricing, I'm assured by Leica, will be competitive. Not a fairy-tale at <$10K (let's be realistic, folks), but comparable to P45+/H3DII-39. And I don't see anyone complaining how much more the P65+ costs for what Jack has pointed out is incremental gains.

    I apologize for the long-winded post, but I felt that some history needed to be clarified from an insider's perspective.

    David
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  34. #134
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    @ David

    While many of your arguments are valid, not all of them are true, but I would not like to go into these details as it does not change anything on the principle issue:

    Many of us have been disappointed several times over the past years with the product policy and the support and quality especially from Leica digital products. As I said I was badly burned by the DMR and had several issues with the M8 before it now works sufficiently reliable with my M glass.

    Now, as I am trying to find the truth around MF solutions (existing ones like H System, Phase) and future ones (S-System) I see a pretty stable product portfolio from Phase and Hasselblad and I can judge their support somehow at least over the last years. And I see also some future strategy of both of them, although this is not always what I like, but at least they have plans and they somehow executed over the last years, maybe also not perfect, but still ok for me.

    But if it comes to Leica, I only see promises. Promises, which I no longer believe in before they have not proven that they can do different as they did over the last years. I do not give anything on their probably internal mismanagement or bad and wrong decisions over the last many years, in the end of the day their arrogance brought them in the situation they are in now. If there is Dr. Kaufmann and he invests his money into a future he believes in (one also could say he wastes his money if you are negative), then I am ok, but would I trust this company upfront again after all the bad experiences I had with them over the past years? Clearly NO!

    Even if they managed to develop the holy grail in MF cameras (which I doubt) it is still just an idea as long as it has not proven reliability in daily operation, exceptional results in IQ and optimal support in case of questions, issues and repair, as well as a clear path into the future, which I cannot see for long term even at best will.

    I wish them all the best, good luck and much success with that project, but I only will believe what I see in reality and over time.

    Obviously you are in a different position as one of their biggest advocats, which is fine as well and maybe many folks will believe in all these nice stories. And I wish all of you that you are on the side of truth.

    But I am still in doubt about this S System, its success and its support and long term future. And BTW I hope future will prove me wrong!

  35. #135
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    David,
    Get us a hard release date for the S2, its lenses AND the price points, and we can put this discussion to rest a bit ;-)

    In the meantime, I am not stopping looking at the Hasselblads, as I think they provide the next best solution for what I think I need from MF.

    It is just past mid-April. My guess, based on what Leica has said in the past, is that we have about 4 months or so for the S2 to come to market. That would suggest that it is pretty near its "final" stages of tweaking, getting readied for the first wave of releases. Are there going to be any images released? Are there going to be any beta-testers that can seriously put the camera through some paces? Sure would be nice to start seeing some stuff and hearing some solid new reports beyond the prototype things you and others have reported on. (I really did appreciate your review, but I still want to see some images and image files....with several of the lenses.)

    Without hard dates and prices, there is little persuasive commentary to assuage those of us harboring some real skepticism and doubt....based on our own experiences.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by TimWright View Post
    I didn't realize the M8 was broken. I have no problem with the IR filters. I gladly put up with this in favor of image quality. The AA filter on my 1dsmk3 is horrible. Crop also doesn't bother me although I can see where it would for some but everyone who bought one knows it is a crop camera. If you want problems get a Canon both of mine just spent 4 weeks in for the focus problem. One sent back with a message "Number not within range" no other explanation even canon cannot tell me what it means. My Canon stuff has spent far more time in service than my M8. Granted I may have been luckier than some but in the half dozen people that I know with an M8 only 1 has had to go in as the range fider was off slightly.
    Count yourself very lucky Tim ... of the half a dozen people I know they all had horrible M8 issues ... and even with fixed cameras do not trust the camera ... nor do I.

    I don't disagree concerning Canon IQ ... which is why I don't shoot with one any more ... but have to give credit to the string of Canons I used for tough duty shooting weddings ... not one failure, not one lost image, and the fix to the 1DMKIII focus took exactly one week door-to-door ... where the M8 and 75% of my M lenses were gone for 5 months! Then, it STILL wasn't right!

    IQ means absolutely nothing if you do not have the camera to shoot with.

    I'm pissed because I had REALLY counted on using a pair of M8s to shoot weddings so I didn't have to lug around a bag of bricks ... as it turned out I'd never endanger my clients based on some silly incremental and subjective IQ argument ... I would shoot their wedding with a Canon Digital Rebel before trusting a M8 ... unless I had at least 4 of them with me (for a mere $20K). My clients buy my content, not some vague notions in an internet IQ arguement.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Pricing, I'm assured by Leica, will be competitive. Not a fairy-tale at <$10K (let's be realistic, folks), but comparable to P45+/H3DII-39. And I don't see anyone complaining how much more the P65+ costs for what Jack has pointed out is incremental gains.
    I'm quoting this post just for posterity sake.

    We're all dying to see where this goes. If you cryogenically froze me ad I woke up in two years I would be not be surprised to find that Leica was very successful with the S2 and had an S3 announced to take their greatest asset (their glass) into the future. Nor would I be surprised to find out it was a giant dud either because the body or lenses were priced too high, had out-of-the-gate issues, the release was delayed, competitive products had made it out-of-date even before launch, or because Leica chose to go it alone on software, service, support, and distribution.

    In the meanwhile the P65+ is priced high, because it has:
    - the highest resolution
    - the largest sensor (100% viewfinder coverage)
    - the highest dynamic range
    - very fast shooting (1 fps @ 60mp or up to 1.4 fps @ 15mp)
    - ISO range from 50-3200
    - it has Phase One's industry leading software, support, service
    - Phase One has a history of open platform and upgrade programs
    - it's a shipping product and not a prototype

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    I don't disagree concerning Canon IQ ... which is why I don't shoot with one any more ... but have to give credit to the string of Canons I used for tough duty shooting weddings ... not one failure, not one lost image, and the fix to the 1DMKIII focus took exactly one week door-to-door ... where the M8 and 75% of my M lenses were gone for 5 months! Then, it STILL wasn't right!

    IQ means absolutely nothing if you do not have the camera to shoot with.

    I'm pissed because I had REALLY counted on using a pair of M8s to shoot weddings so I didn't have to lug around a bag of bricks ....
    Ya that sucks. I got my M8 out of the first delivery in the fall of 06. Of course it did have to go back to Solms for the fix but with the money I saved in getting a wate I didn't really mind. I had a lockup once doing a firmware update and it had to go to NJ for service. Took it to my dealer and turn around was 4 days. Sent it in for the shutter and frame lines upgrade and I think it took 7 days. I have shot weddings with it in combo with a 5D and lately with a 1DSMK3 and haven't had an issue with either camera. The autofocus issue is another story. Canon has by far the worst service (at least in Canada) everyone I have talked to has given me a different story and I still do not know if they have fixed either of my 1D's. I have had no worries about the functioning of my M8 except when very cold and I know the batteries wont last. I regularly travel with it in the saddlebag of my motorcycle (a Harley) that does not have the smoothest ride on camping trips lasting at least a week. I know it isn't rain proof but all in all I have been pretty happy.

  39. #139
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Food fight. LOL

    Seriously I am down to the bottom line on the S2. Comes down to a few simple well chosen industrial words that been around before i have "Show me the money". BUT I will keep on truckin with gear that is available today or a month away and anything past that for me at least is a wet dream. I can't count on future products and no matter how much i would want one . Realistically I won't consider it until the whole system is out , running and proofing it's pudding. The S2 is too far away from my point purchasing time if there is one, to even think about it. It's nice I had it in my hands and played with it but too me sorry it is not on the same price point as a P45/H3 39.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    I need to jump in here as well.

    I bought two M8's from the first batch in November 2006 and some of the issues I had with service as many of the initial issues were dealt with have been reported here. Never became happy with Leica service although my last two experiences (lately) are about as good as I expect from either Canon or Nikon.

    Leica made a serious mistake by choosing to have their firmware contracted out to Imacon. While it probably seemed expedient at the time in order to get the M8 to market, in hindsight it was a disaster as Imacon went their separate way as a result of the merger with Hasselblad and Leica was left having little or none of the software expertise in house. Both M8's and DMRs suffered gravely as a result. The first production run of 1000 units of the DMR were sold rather quickly. The problem is that without Imacon leica probably believed it far too risky to be tied to Imacon as a critical supplier for another 1000 backs. So the DMR project came to a premature end. However for those of us who owned and some who still own the product it performed very well indeed for what it was intended. I don't disagree with Marc Williams about the need for AF but what the DMR was and wasn't at the time it was introduced and we were buying was well known.

    I believe that, since then, Leica has learned a great deal about the engineering and marketing of digital cameras. Thus I don't believe the S2 will replicate the issues of either the DMR or the M8.s I expect the issues to be more of the norm with regard to digital launches i.e. not perfect but manageable. It seems to me the concepts and prototypes were rather well known at the time of introduction at Photokina. The fact that multiple bodies were functional with at least one lens is pretty remarkable considering the magnitude of the project.

    In any event, the proof of the pudding is indeed in the eating. Acknowledging the very real problems leica had with the introduction of the M8's my two bodies function very well after over two and 1/2 years of constant use. The IQ of the files is still amazing at just 10Mpx and I would not trade them for my D3 files except in the area of high ISO which is why I have the Nikons.

    JMHO

    Woody

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Just to modify the tone a bit vis-a-vis Canon service: the service in the U.S., especially Irvine, CA has been excellent and fast. Same for Bangkok, Thailand, including items purchased in the U.S. where one pays a very small fee for non-Asian gear to get serviced, but I get it done same day.

    I have heard that Canada and some part of Europe Canon service can be frustrating. Just wanted to temper the tone a bit.

    Now back to your regularly scheduled debate.

  42. #142
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    In any event, the proof of the pudding is indeed in the eating. Acknowledging the very real problems leica had with the introduction of the M8's my two bodies function very well after over two and 1/2 years of constant use. The IQ of the files is still amazing at just 10Mpx
    Quite right Woody, I quite agree about the M8, and my two bodies have also performed well over 2.1/2 years.

    The S2 any one of each of the following:

    Excellent
    Troubled:
    Poor

    Late
    On Time
    Early

    Well priced
    Expensive
    Exorbitant

    whether it's a success or not depends on these things, and at the moment we don't really know about any of them.

    personally I'm in the optimistic camp with David Farkas, but I think that Guy has it - this is a food fight, rather than a useful discussion.

    (bit hard to keep out of though )

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    The DMR was developed and produced in collaboration with Imacon. Leica was not their top priority so development schedules were continually pushed back. As to why DMR production and firmware updates stopped... easy, Imacon was merged into Hasselblad. Hasselblad reigned in resources to work on in-house projects and Leica was left high and dry with no recourse. As others have mentioned, the DMR still produces phenomenal results. Perhaps some might recall a certain thread comparing the 10MP DMR to the 16.7MP 1dsII, where the DMR posted superior and more pleasing results consistently, despite the Canon having a 67% pixel advantage with a larger FF sensor.

    The R lenses will be able to be used on the next R camera, which will come next year as Leica has already said. New AF R lenses will take the system forward. I don't see Leica abandoning R at all. They just decided they could have more market impact by getting the S2 out first. All the technology is shared between S and R, so it is pretty safe to assume that the next R camera will be a baby S2. If the S2 is as good as it promises to be (and as good as I've experienced personally in the prototypes), the R will be equally so, just in a smaller format.

    The M8 and now M8.2 has been my daily camera for the last 2+ years. It travels with me wherever I go and I am continually surprised at the quality such a small camera produces. I don't mind the IR filters and haven't had a single camera problem myself. Out of the many, many M8s that I've sold, none had electrical/freezing issues and only a few (M8s, not any M8.2s so far) had misaligned rangefinders. Since I tested them with my customers before they left the store (or shipped them out), I was able to just swap these ones out with a new, perfect one, and send the one with bad rangefinder back to Leica. I guess this falls under working with a good dealer from the start, just like with MFD.

    Would I like a FF M9 with lower noise beyond 640 ISO and a bit higher resolution? Of course, but I am not suffering today and I routinely make outstanding 20x30 prints from my photos. I use a WATE and am totally satisfied with the wide angle coverage at 16mm. I don't shoot sports and have no more need for additional fps.

    And, just as Leica worked with Imacon on the DMR, they partnered with MFD company Jenoptik to design the hardware and firmware of the M8. Kodak sold them on the IR filtration on the CCD being adequate (I've seen the spectral sensitivity chart and the IR allowed to pass certainly looks minuscule and insignificant). I was a beta tester for the M8 back in August 2006. Shooting over 1000 shots in four days, from a professional location fashion shoot with strobes, to street shooting, night shooting, and whatever I could point a camera at, I never noticed the IR issue. Why not? The reason was simple - no one wears black synthetic fabrics in August in Miami! Once winter hit up north and the black fleece came out, all bets were off.

    FWIW, I've tested a Nikon D70 and it has IR bleed that is far worse than the M8. Test one for yourself to see. The D70/D70s was one of the most successful DSLRs ever for Nikon, selling about 1 million cameras. No one noticed. No one cared. Yes, the Leica was 5 times the price, so it was held to a higher standard. Leica didn't have to provide two free IR filters, but it was the right thing to do once the problem was identified.

    With the S2, Leica has learned their lessons of the past working with technology partners. The S2 was developed and designed 100% in-house with fresh new talent working side-by-side with experienced camera engineers. The S2 went from a drawing board idea to full-working prototypes with real lenses in less than six months (April 08 - Sept 08). We probably would have seen the S2 earlier (and possibly an M9 and/or R10 as well) if Steven Lee hadn't been at the reigns. He shelved the AFRIKa project indefinitely a few months before he was removed from power. He also rushed the M8 to market before it could be thoroughly tested and vetted. His philosophy was that it was better to be on time than to be 100% right. Luckily, Lee is no longer calling the shots. Since Christian Erhardt has taken over Service in the USA, turnaround time has been reduced to 50% of what it was. He successfully orchestrated over 1000 M8 upgrades in the US with an average turnaround of one week. Christian is currently putting an S2 support staff together and organizing the professional service necessary for a product like the S2.

    A lot of money, thought, and planning has gone into the S2. It will be on time and it will be done right. The already stable platform in prototype stage will be that much more so in the production model. I understand the skepticism to some degree based on past misgivings, but I'm confident, based on what I've seen and what I know, that the S2 will be a reliable, dependable, robust, and truly professional system. Pricing, I'm assured by Leica, will be competitive. Not a fairy-tale at <$10K (let's be realistic, folks), but comparable to P45+/H3DII-39. And I don't see anyone complaining how much more the P65+ costs for what Jack has pointed out is incremental gains.

    I apologize for the long-winded post, but I felt that some history needed to be clarified from an insider's perspective.

    David
    A good run down ... from your perspective.

    I'd ask why there wasn't a better contract between Leica and Imacon so the DMR wasn't hung out to dry along with those who bought one?

    Sorry, but the minute I had the M8 in my hands and shot in the house ... the IR filter issue was immediately apparent. My black camera bag was magenta. The strap on my other camera was magenta. All the softboxes were magenta.

    You may not mind the IR filters, but (stupid me) I once again tried to use the camera at a wedding ... every shot at the reception had green double reflections of the chandelier specular highlights across people's faces and what-not. Horrible and undeliverable. Sorry, can't remove the IR since the people are all wearing black.


    I hope you are right concerning Leica having learned, and that they will apply that to the S2. But I'll trust them again around the time that the Good Humor man visits Hades ... because I don't owe them one damned thing, least of all entrusting my business to them ... and that's after using and trusting Ms for most of my adult life.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    I am siding with Marc on this. I got my M8 in the very first release...Nov 2006. I was really excited. Tested it out the evening I got it, and figured some of the things were attributable to it being new, my not being totally familiar, etc., etc. Things like the magenta camera bags Marc mentioned....right out of the box. Took it on shoot the very next evening....black tie event at Tiffany's to raise money for charities and launch the polo season in Houston that year. Did not have any filters, as they were pretty much unknowns (unreported is more like it). Horror of horrors. Only thing that saved my bacon on that shoot was a guy had built some workaround profiles for C1 that helped correct the magenta. I was still very leery of shooting it on gigs. Then came the issues with the green stripes from blown lights at the edge of the frame. Then I finally got some filters. Did a shoot at a pub and all the specular highlights issues Marc mentioned came up...they still exist, by the way, as filter surfaces are reflective surfaces....period. Sent the camera to Solms for "fixing" when Leica finally admitted there were issues. three months later I got it back. Still needed multiple firmware updates after that, and UV/IR filters were now in high demand and at prices that were frightening. Leica was not turning them out in time and B+W was "heavy-handed" for use on lenses shorter than say 35mm. We will not even get into the entire issue with the batteries, camera shutting down suddenly, etc.

    Since then, the M8 has been tuned to very workable shape, and like others, I love the files I get from it, as long as I shoot below 640 ISO for the most part, even though Leica specs, and a reason I bought into it stated ISO 2500...not very close without a lot of heavy NR efforts that murder the great detail you just captured. Now, I still carry the M8 everywhere....for my personal and casual shooting.....and it only goes on paying gigs as the "creative extra", like using a Noctilux for some dreamy portrait type things. I just cannot rely on it to deliver. It is the only piece of kit that has not really paid for itself to this point. Today, I cannot afford to risk that type of scenario again. I still have a "passion" for Leica and the glass, since starting shooting with the M4 way back when, but those cameras were pretty amazing and could take the use. The M8, to me, is still too finicky at times to be totally trusted to deliver whenever I must get the shots. Just my experience with it so far. I do not plan to give it up, but no matter how great the S2 looks on paper, until it is proven to work....all the time, right from the box, I will not have much faith there. Still love the S2 design and everything else that has been described about it, but it is still untested, unproven, unavailable, and no idea on its costs....of purchase and ownership. (Downtime costs the professional user if that is their main tool.)

    LJ

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    In the UK at least, with CPS membership (free here still) turnaround is 3 days. When you have a business that is worth much more than IQ differences that are totally unnoticeable to the people paying for the files. I have rentals everywhere should I need and friends who shoot canon. Heck it's not that expensive to have multiple backups either. The idea of an M8 as a business tool would scare the heck out of me, what would I do if I knackered it mid wedding with another wedding that week? That said I have a cornea condition that has screwed up my manual focus and rangefinder in particular so it's never actually even tempted me.
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Quite right Woody, I quite agree about the M8, and my two bodies have also performed well over 2.1/2 years.

    The S2 any one of each of the following:

    Excellent
    Troubled:
    Poor

    Late
    On Time
    Early

    Well priced
    Expensive
    Exorbitant

    whether it's a success or not depends on these things, and at the moment we don't really know about any of them.

    personally I'm in the optimistic camp with David Farkas, but I think that Guy has it - this is a food fight, rather than a useful discussion.

    (bit hard to keep out of though )

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Just to say something positive about the S2: The idea, the design, the principle etc are very promising, I really like it. Would I not have the negative experience with Leica digital cameras over the past years I probably would be one of the first buyers.

    But so I am careful and anxious to run into the same issues again. And this time it is not just for fun or hobby I am buying into a new camera or concept, it is for real business. So I need to see finally some money coming out of my MF investment. And thus - now suddenly like most of you who are real professionals - I also need to make money with my gear and the photos I produce. And traveling to remote locations to do landscape shots costs additional big money, so I have absolutely NO space to play around and need to take my equipment decision very serious. Nothing new for most of you, but for me of course.

    And thus there are 2 solutions I can choose from over the next 2 years, which are Hasselblad and Phase/Mamiya. And unfortunately not Leica, as they first have to prove they are getting the System and the support right.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Frankly Peter everyone should be taken the same precautionary attitude the Pro's are taken when it comes to gear. It has to make sense, not that we are right or the hobbyist is wrong. It's real money now and whatever the hobbyist or Pro buys just needs to make some sense. I understand the joy issue very much but joy also comes with good sound basic decisions and I think sometimes we ALL lose sight of that.

    I know i made a few dumb decisions along the way and they are not so easy to make up especially as the hobbyist that can't recoup there investment as well. For Pro's mistakes can be made up but still being a big dummy too often is deadly.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Ah! Marc
    It's the perfect answer to everything . . . 42 . . . the meaning of life . . . .
    erm . . what was the question?

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    One must also bear in mind that it does not matter which partner, if any, was to blame to any issues with DMr or M8. Leica, as the vendor who signed those partners was ultimately responsible for the finished product and the risk to users if (as happened) issues with any given partnership/collaboration caused issues with their products. Your name on the product - you get the glory, you get the blame.

    While Leica has pumped a lot of coin into the S2 and I HOPE it does well, Hassy et al are not treading water. One can not also make the point that Leica is pumping big $$$ into new MF product vs others. The others did their initial development years ago, they're now in the much lower risk and much lower cost mode of evolving existing product lines into an existing customer base and a market/potential customer base that KNOWS, to a good degree, based on history of their tech/service what to expect from them.

    Has Leica, despite the management changes, exhibited any recent CONCRETE vs verbiage examples of having changed their cultural mode of behavior re: service/price/support re: the S2 vs older product intros? Changes that most of us would agree, regardless what side of the fence you're on, MUST happen to make the S2 take-off. Lets see;

    - New M lenses priced at 'Is Their No Global Recession On Your Planet?' (ITNGROYP) levels.
    - Modest tweaks to M8 called M8.2 with ITNGROYP price
    - No overt changes to service support that have heard anyone chatter about as yet.

    So as much as the S2 may handle sweet, hold gobs of IQ promise and look like sex on a stick, I think folks should allow many of us our "show me" skepticism - as much as we hope they do well.
    Last edited by robmac; 20th April 2009 at 15:04.

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