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Thread: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

  1. #151
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    I have alway siused the M8 for its IQ - ther eis no better travel kit around. I use it in FAT light - just like I use an MFD back in FAT light. When used in its 'narrow field' of capability - essentially 90% of what I shoot - it is superb. I am going to upgrade to an M8.2 and I am going to buy a FF M - if it ever comes out.

    I really dont know what the S2 is trying to achieve. If it is pitched somewwhere between high end CaNikon and MF - that is a narrow sliver of positioning space - a space where quoted prices dont really fit...

    strange.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Ah! Marc
    It's the perfect answer to everything . . . 42 . . . the meaning of life . . . .
    erm . . what was the question?

    Thanks so much for the illuminating answer Deep Thought. See you next week with yet another conundrum

    Woody

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    The Hitchhiker's Guide was such a great book -- such a shame the movie sucked.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Is there any reason why the Leica lenses for the S2 would not "work" if Leica dropped a full frame 645 chip with 60mp into the S2?

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    If the image circle and registration distance permitted - I would guess no reason why not. That said, I think the bigger problem would be lack of real estate inside the body itself, cooling, etc.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    The requirements for the mirror box for handling the bigger sensor alone might change the entire size/shape of the S2.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    "- New M lenses priced at 'Is Their No Global Recession On Your Planet?' (ITNGROYP) levels.
    - Modest tweaks to M8 called M8.2 with ITNGROYP price"

    The M8.2 is more pricey because of they sapphire glass - not everybody might need it, but it's not cheap. That's way the M8 stayed in program.

    It's the same with the lenses, before they introduced the extremely expensive Summilux/Noctilux, that came up with the Summarits. Priced as Canon L-glass with better optics and mechanics. The new 21/24/50 are unique lenses - you propably don't need them, you propably won't pay for them (I don't) but they outperform every other photographic lens in their class - if there are any. And yes, they're also very expensive to manufacture.

    Let's hope the S2 won't be cheap, but worth it's price - that's more important especially in this economic situation, I'm sick of cheap crap all over the place -like my 1400$ Macbook, made in China, full of manufacturing failures (still the best on the market), made with CNC-technology used in high-wage-countries 20 years ago, crashes twice a day - my twice as expensive 28mm Summicron was by far the better investment and I will still enjoy it when the Apple goes into the trash!

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    I had an interesting conversation today with another Pro photographer. I was like that:

    "Yes the S2, just another fancy, sexy Leica camera which nobody really needs, but yes, it looks great and many will want to own one ..."

    I think this reflects nicely what the S System is seen already today in will remain for the future - just another very exclusive system, which is nice to have, but less and less people will be able to afford or willing to pay for, as they can get enough good and great quality without that extra money.

    But if one really looks for that red dot and the exclusiveness of the product, then the S System is the right way to go

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    The Hitchhiker's Guide was such a great book -- such a shame the movie sucked.
    HI There - quite agree about the book and film . . . but it was a radio program in the UK first, and that's where it really shone. If you haven't heard it, you should really REALLY try to get hold of it.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Hey Jono. Interesting. I'll do some searching and see if can find it.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I didn't realize the M8 had been fixed. No IR filters needed anymore? No 6 bit coding anymore? No crop frame that turns a expensive W/As into a normal field of view? No more focus shift from the 35 Lux? No more freakin' specular highlight reflections ruining images from having to use the IR filter? Wahoo! Maybe I can return to using my M8 for the reasons I originally paid through the nose for.

    Get real
    Focus Shift is something which has nothing to do with the camera, but the lens. In my experience very few lenses of the Leica M system show thisproblem to an extend that it is problematic. I would say its actually mainly the 35/1.4asph and the (old?) Noctilux.
    There are other very good alternative lenses in this focal length.
    Focus shift is nothing which can only be found in Leica lenses.

    I have no problem with the IR filters, I see it as a fix- and I believe a Leica lens with a filter seems to still deliever better IQ than many other lenses without a filter. Yes, in theory any additional piece of glass doesnt help, but in reality I dont see any negative effect, with one exception: With the wate I get here and then a small reflex in the image. This might (eventually) be better without the filter.
    Sensor size..yes, full frame would be nice - but if you own the Wate than you have from 21mm FOV up to 135mm FOV and that works for me.
    the 28/2.0 as a 38mm lens and the 50asph as a "65mm lens" work very well for me too.
    Personally I dont feel any "flaws" with the M8, but thats maybe just me.
    Maybe I am lucky to, because my 2 year old M8 and my M8.2 have never died and allways worked fine.

    Tom
    Last edited by Paratom; 21st April 2009 at 23:26.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    As a side note: with regards to the IR color shift I've seen it in captures from many cameras, also in some captures from my Nikon D50 (a newer camera than D70) and at least once with my Canon 5D as well. I was right now able to go back to some captures from march 2005 and find these two D50 crops as an illustration. The items in the pictures all belong to me and I assure you that to the human eye they are as black as black can be.






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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Focus Shift is something which has nothing to do with the camera, but the lens. In my experience very few lenses of the Leica M system show thisproblem to an extend that it is problematic. I would say its actually mainly the 35/1.4asph and the (old?) Noctilux.
    There are other very good alternative lenses in this focal length.
    Focus shift is nothing which can only be found in Leica lenses.

    I have no problem with the IR filters, I see it as a fix- and I believe a Leica lens with a filter seems to still deliever better IQ than many other lenses without a filter. Yes, in theory any additional piece of glass doesnt help, but in reality I dont see any negative effect, with one exception: With the wate I get here and then a small reflex in the image. This might (eventually) be better without the filter.
    Sensor size..yes, full frame would be nice - but if you own the Wate than you have from 21mm FOV up to 135mm FOV and that works for me.
    the 28/2.0 as a 38mm lens and the 50asph as a "65mm lens" work very well for me too.
    Personally I dont feel any "flaws" with the M8, but thats maybe just me.
    Maybe I am lucky to, because my 2 year old M8 and my M8.2 have never died and allways worked fine.

    Tom
    Okay Tom, please allow me to temper my response to all this. I am not a Leica basher, and have expended a lot of my hard earned cash over the years to buy and use Leica products both M and R.

    So, my responses are not that of a non-user just dissing the brand based on someone else's experiences ... they were all my own experiences ... and they were traumatic for me and my Leica dealer who fought hard to get things fixed. No other experience with any other system were as high in expectations based on previous M history, or as bad and disappointing once in hand ... obviously, I am not alone in this feeling.

    I also still have my M8 and a slew of lenses along with a good measure of hope to use them all to good purpose. However, like Peter A said, the conditions have to be "Fat" ... unfortunately where his application is 90% in those conditions, mine are not. When they are "Fat", it's hard to beat for its size. Yet, I can't help thinking this is a really expensive "fair weather system" that survives in my bag out of hope rather than reality.

    I fully accept that the M optics are class leaders ... it's why I paid the long dollar to own them (currently: 24/2.8ASPH, 28/2ASPH, 35/1.4ASPH, 50/1.5ASPH, 90/2.8, and a hunt for a clean 75/2AA). Previously owned the WATE, 50/Nocti, 75Lux and 90AA. The WATE was a fine optic, but IMO to slow in max aperture for a low ISO camera ... and slow in working speed with the cumbersome finder ... for my traditional use of a rangefinder. I DO resent that my mainstay 35/1.4 ASPH has the field of view of a 50mm ... and that a 35 mm field of view @ f/1.4 will cost me $6,000. I also keep getting my previous experiences reinforced ... I just purchased a 75/2 that when tested that was clearly back focusing on my recently calibrated M8 (that is fine with all my other M lenses including the 50/1.4ASPH). I refused "service" and sent the lens back without paying for it.

    That you have no issue with the IR filters simply tells me that you use the system in conditions different from mine ... I've always used an M for wedding work, and some of my best work was with my M6/M6TTL/M7s ... and it is disappointing that M8 work had to be narrowed to fair weather conditions only ... because of the specular light reflections issue so ubiquitous at weddings as well as many commercial event applications like trade shows and gala events. In my gear bag, the M8 has been relegated to a dilettantish tool amongst the hard working tools that deliver bread to my family's table ... where once the M system was the standard by which all others were measured.

    So In conclusion, I agree with you ... its fine for you and others, and not fine for me and others depending on shooting conditions.

    However, hope springs eternal. I keep trying to make it work because the "rangefinder way" is unique in the way it makes one think and shoot ... with little getting in the way of a pure focus on content and unfolding events ... and without a rangefinder in the lead, I honestly do believe my work has suffered a bit ... and have observed that in others who left their M behind for a DSLR.

    Thanks for your patience.

    -Marc

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    The real issue is not just the blacks it is the IR bleed that effects other colors as well in the overall image. Foliage is actually a big issue because of the IR content it throws off. So yes it is obvious in the blacks but it will effect the overall color in just about everything.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The real issue is not just the blacks it is the IR bleed that effects other colors as well in the overall image. Foliage is actually a big issue because of the IR content it throws off. So yes it is obvious in the blacks but it will effect the overall color in just about everything.
    That has been my experience also. However, as I have been trying to get back to using a M for my work, I've tended to position the camera as much for B&W as for color.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    And the interesting thing is many folks like the IR bleed for B&W work.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Don't really understand the issues with the IR filters. I use them and have had no problems. Aren't most of the MF systems also devoid of IR filters on the sensors and require filters? The last 2 weddings I did I was only allowed to shoot with the M8 during the ceremony and no flash. The Canons were deemed too loud. I use both cameras M8 and 5D or 1Ds3 and get great results with both.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    No all MF backs have IR filtration embedded in the cover glass and actually so does the M8 but the M8 is just not strong enough so to get the most accurate color on the M8 you need the external screw in IR filters. All DSLR's have IR filters as well built into the cover cover glass. Nikon at one time had the same issue as the M8 forget which model but it was also not filtered enough. This is the issue with the M8 it is there but the strength is not enough to take care of the IR bleed reason for a pretty specific filter. B+W will work but they are a little strong reason for over correction in the very wide angles of lenses on the M8. The Leica IR filters are actually weaker and tuned exactly to the firmware . Reason I have said anything under 21mm use a Leica IR filter. Like the WATE , Leica 21 and even the Zeiss 18mm to get clean corner bleed you need the Leica filters. TRUST ME I have done a zillion tests on this issue and the M8. Obviously if you use the filters on all your glass you basically get back to a state of normal containment of the IR bleed. Just like a Canon or Nikon or any other camera on the market. Bottom line the IR filter on the M8 sensor glass was and is underpowered and Leica thought this in the engineering process it would keep there lenses as sharp and resolve the best as possible. They did not count on the bleed that would happen and main reason for all of this was the lens element is so close to sensor it actually could have affected lens degradation. Leica as people forget who they really are is a lens company and the output of the lenses is paramount. Where the mistake came was not counting on the weakness of there IR filtration. Reason you are using external IR filters. There is no other way except to actually put this in every lens made. Something they can't do because of film based use. But I HIGHLY recommend the use of the Leica IR filter, remember I was a beta tester on this stuff and even though you can use a B+W filter if you look very closely to images compared with the Leica and B+w filters there is a difference towards a more green effect with the B+W but 99 percent of the people do not actually notice it or NEVER did the comparison tests.
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    the negative filter issues are due to adding another layer of glass in front of the lens

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Exactly Jim but for shooters like Jim that shoot a lot of IR stuff. It is a blessing, and he does great work with it. I know Jack pretty much kept his M8 for B&W work and IR.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    I have used the Leica IR filters on all my lenses since they became available. The first couple of months I was shooting stuff where the filters didn't matter. Maybe I am thinking of the AA filter on medium format?

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    I also recommend using the original IR filters for everything 35mm and wider.
    Plus I recommend to use the J.M.-filter holder for the wate since I think it is less prone to reflections compared to the original Leica-filter holder for the wate.



    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    No all MF backs have IR filtration embedded in the cover glass and actually so does the M8 but the M8 is just not strong enough so to get the most accurate color on the M8 you need the external screw in IR filters. All DSLR's have IR filters as well built into the cover cover glass. Nikon at one time had the same issue as the M8 forget which model but it was also not filtered enough. This is the issue with the M8 it is there but the strength is not enough to take care of the IR bleed reason for a pretty specific filter. B+W will work but they are a little strong reason for over correction in the very wide angles of lenses on the M8. The Leica IR filters are actually weaker and tuned exactly to the firmware . Reason I have said anything under 21mm use a Leica IR filter. Like the WATE , Leica 21 and even the Zeiss 18mm to get clean corner bleed you need the Leica filters. TRUST ME I have done a zillion tests on this issue and the M8. Obviously if you use the filters on all your glass you basically get back to a state of normal containment of the IR bleed. Just like a Canon or Nikon or any other camera on the market. Bottom line the IR filter on the M8 sensor glass was and is underpowered and Leica thought this in the engineering process it would keep there lenses as sharp and resolve the best as possible. They did not count on the bleed that would happen and main reason for all of this was the lens element is so close to sensor it actually could have affected lens degradation. Leica as people forget who they really are is a lens company and the output of the lenses is paramount. Where the mistake came was not counting on the weakness of there IR filtration. Reason you are using external IR filters. There is no other way except to actually put this in every lens made. Something they can't do because of film based use. But I HIGHLY recommend the use of the Leica IR filter, remember I was a beta tester on this stuff and even though you can use a B+W filter if you look very closely to images compared with the Leica and B+w filters there is a difference towards a more green effect with the B+W but 99 percent of the people do not actually notice it or NEVER did the comparison tests.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Agree Tom I just folks to understand that about 24 and wider you really want to use the specific Leica brand since the B+W are a little heavy on the green in the corners.

    On the WATE i agree was actually the first person to have that filter holder John made along with Mark Norton who actually started the idea.
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    I use them on all my Leica glass, easier than remembering to turn it off and on. I also use the JLM wate filter adapter but do find it vignettes very slightly.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Yes Tim in reality it turned out to be the best practice was just buy all the damn filters leave them on and forget about it.

    Is yours with just the glass filter only and no frame. Not sure what John made after the original version if any. Curious on the vignetting
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Yes Tim in reality it turned out to be the best practice was just buy all the damn filters leave them on and forget about it.

    Is yours with just the glass filter only and no frame. Not sure what John made after the original version if any. Curious on the vignetting
    Have to check to be sure but I am pretty sure it is the with glass only. I remember there was some discussion about it but it is so minor that it doesn't bother me. I generally like to have a filter on my lens after having nicked a front element once so even if they were not needed I likely would have put something on anyway.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    But I HIGHLY recommend the use of the Leica IR filter, remember I was a beta tester on this stuff and even though you can use a B+W filter if you look very closely to images compared with the Leica and B+w filters there is a difference towards a more green effect with the B+W but 99 percent of the people do not actually notice it or NEVER did the comparison tests.
    This was the reason WHY I went for Leica ONLY IR Filters from the very beginning.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by TimWright View Post
    Don't really understand the issues with the IR filters. I use them and have had no problems. Aren't most of the MF systems also devoid of IR filters on the sensors and require filters? The last 2 weddings I did I was only allowed to shoot with the M8 during the ceremony and no flash. The Canons were deemed too loud. I use both cameras M8 and 5D or 1Ds3 and get great results with both.
    Okay, I guess I need to show the problem.

    When you shoot available light images that have specular highlights in the frame ... the IR lens filter often causes double reflections of the specular hot spots elsewhere in the captured frame ... often across a face or some other detail that's near impossible to correct in post. This can sometimes even happen with regular filters on fast lenses ... so when shooting stuff like this I always remove the lens filter ... which I can't do with the M8 because of the IR bleed issue.

    Here's one I kept from a whole series I tossed out ... this was the least damaged frame. I tried to minimize the effect by converting to B&W becuase the color was much worse. Still, the client noticed it and wondered if I could fix it. I just trashed the image from her set, and used a shot from the A900 of the same subject in its place. Not one of these M8 wedding reception shots was usable.

    My M8 is completely updated and the lenses have Leica IRs on them. This was a shot with the 35 Lux ASPH.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Don't recall ever seeing that sort of thing with any of my M8 stuff but then I don't have that lens. Mostly use a 24 or 28. Have you had this with other lenses as well?

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    I have also seen it, on several lenses. The WATE is notable here, and was the lens which made people notice the problem, IIRC. It isn't often there in my shooting, and so it doesn't bother me, but for a pro like Marc, if you can't rely on the camera, you might as well not use it, especially since weddings often have light sources all over the place, and in the frame. I hope Marc at least has some fun with his M8 on his own time.
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by TimWright View Post
    Don't recall ever seeing that sort of thing with any of my M8 stuff but then I don't have that lens. Mostly use a 24 or 28. Have you had this with other lenses as well?
    You see this with all M lenses, it is not specific to a single lens!

    Unfortunately!

    And I can say as I have all (most) of them. No single exception. Of course it is more likely with Wides!

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by TimWright View Post
    Don't recall ever seeing that sort of thing with any of my M8 stuff but then I don't have that lens. Mostly use a 24 or 28. Have you had this with other lenses as well?
    Yes.

    And, on all three M8s I've used ... including my short stint with an 8.2.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    I've seen this on my old 5D's using the 85L shooting into chandeliers.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    You see this with all M lenses, it is not specific to a single lens!

    Unfortunately!

    And I can say as I have all (most) of them. No single exception. Of course it is more likely with Wides!
    I see it happen with my 35 f/2 ASPH the most, but don't ever recall this happening with my 50 or 90 lenses. When I tested out the 24 f/1.4 and 18 f/3.8 in Las Vegas at night on the Strip (both with IR filters in place), I didn't get a single IR reflection. Maybe I'm just lucky.


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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    MMhh, I have to admit that I havent noticed such problem but then again I think I dont have the light source directly in my image often.
    Looks ugly though.

  36. #186
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    David,

    I don't think you'll be selling an S2 to Marc or Peter. There may be other buyers, though, so don't despair.

    Steve

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Well, the S2 won't have IR filters on the lenses, so I bet even Marc and Peter would buy one, as long as it proves itself first! There is no going on reputation with those guys
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    To buy an S2 it has to prove its functionality, IQ, service support etc. over a period of some years. Then maybe trust will come back.

    The scary thing is, that I will have invested by then already in another digital MF system, thus it will be very unlikely that I am going to switch again.

    But never say never again

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    I dont know if I am the only one but one major advantage of the S2 I would see in the size and that it might be less obstrusive than other MF gear?

    I admit that I sometimes do not privatly bring my MF-gear because of the Ahhs and Uhhhs, and questions when people see MF-cameras.

    Since the S2 looks much mor DSLR-like I would guess that this would be different and less obstrusive.

    The other thing is that to me it seems the only system which will really offer a good selection of both, leaf-shutter lenses and a shutter in the camera. (However I have to say that I dont miss a shutter in my Hy6 at all).

    I dont see it as negative as some people here do. I would not be in a hurry to buy the first available S2 - but I am very interested to see how it will perform and to test run one once the camera and at least 2-3 lenses are available.
    I dont mind if this will be in 3 months or in 12 months.
    If it proves to be reliable and to be as good as I hope it could be interesting.
    Maybe it could replace a DSLR and a MF-camera for some people and in this case it could be still be "affordable" even though one has to buy all new (and probably expensive) lenses.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    If the S2 really does prove itself, then I think there are a number of advantages, not just size and DSLR-likeness. As you mention, leaf and focal plane shutters is a big advantage for people who use flash and also shoot without, outside.

    For me, personally, the big attraction is the glass and the (presumed) lack of hassle with the kinds of tolerance problems Joseph Holmes writes about. Take it out of the box, mount a lens, and shoot. Shims, spacers, lens adjustments, focusing screen adjustments, hunting for good copies of various lenses, especially the wides, missing T/S lenses, and all that stuff just doesn't really appeal to me at all, and although one might not have any problems, like Jack, one might, like Tim. There is just no telling in advance.

    I also really like the simplistic interface on this camera.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    The principles of the S2 are pretty ok and attractive to me as we!

    It is the execution by Leica I have huge doubts in - unfortunately they managed to build up this negative experience over the past years.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Doubt that i would be able to afford it but I would not hesitate in buying one. I have only had the one incident with my M8 which might have been partially my fault (repaired in 4 days no charge) and the quality of the images are excellent. The big question to me will be the price.

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    Re: Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

    Well put. From a tech and assumed IQ perspective, the S2 looks stellar. It's the 1001 OTHER things Leica needs to do/prove/price that are crucial to the product (and company's) success that are the issue.

    Their intended market has also gone from staid and stable to one of a maelstrom of massive price cuts, mergers, partnerships and (in-progress) failures over the last 12 mos; and Leica has not exactly establish a rep as a firm with the ability/will to move and adapt quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    The principles of the S2 are pretty ok and attractive to me as we!

    It is the execution by Leica I have huge doubts in - unfortunately they managed to build up this negative experience over the past years.

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