Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

[ptomsu]

Although Leica stops to produce the current R System and shifts manpower to its new flagship model S2, the S2 will be delayed till autumn 2009.

http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=845488

And the price tag seems to become pretty high €20.000.-

 

[LJL]

Well, if that reporting is accurate, and Leica is starting to settle on both price and a bit of delay in delivery, things are looking less rosy for some of us that have been hoping for sooner and cheaper. Guess we will just have to see how it plays out. In the meantime, some of the Hasselblad stuff will come into my focus again ;-)

LJ

 

[carstenw]

Leica only ever stated summer 2009, and late summer (as it is phrased in the Leica press release BJP refers to) is still summer. In that sense, it is not delayed.

I don't know where the €20.000 price comes from, unless they simply refer to Herr Doktor Kaufmann's earlier statement on the matter, which was that the camera would cost less than €20.000, and hopefully below €15.000. There was no indication if the kit lens would be included for this price. I think that €15.000 is low enough to be competitive, especially with a kit lens, so if they manage this, they are in the game, IMO. €20.000 sounds too high, given Hasselblad's prices being in free-fall.

 

[LJL]

Carsten,
This was exactly why I started my response with the "if that reporting is accurate" caveat. What we do not know if there has been a change since the statements from Kaufmann. August 2009 is still "Summer", whereas "Fall" would not see anything shipping before late September through December. And the price quoted here 20K Euros is at the top of the range that he was hoping to come out under. Again, things could have changed, or this could all be older "news" that is just being recycled in the article.

LJ

 

[carstenw]

Given how long it took BJP to report on these two items online, I think it is safe to say that there is no news. The original F&H report was here, published 9 days ago:

http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Franke-Heidecke-ist-insolvent

Photoscala is usually first with German news, and given that both F&H and Leica are here, this would be the place to look, not the BJP.

 

[JanRSmit]

In THe Netherlands a Professional Imaging show has just finished. Leica was present with the S2,and there were no hints or statements of any kind pointing to a delay. (As a side step: a nice piece, very intuitive to use, clear viewfinder, quite fast autofocus, quite easy to hold very steady) Actually they mentioned more info to be released in the next couple of weeks. Also i spoke with some photographers about the S2 and the price was rumored to be significantly below EUR15k, some even stated below EUR10k for the body. No way to confirm this, but the price crash of other MF certainly makes it uncertain anyhow. Whether this price-crash is triggered by Leica plans to enter the MF market niche, i do not know. It was however firmly stated by the Leica persons that their aim is to become a leading player in this niche. So some agressive pricing is a likely scenario.

IQ is technology, PQ is YOU

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Leica mentioned late summer at PMA and price was never even hinted so not sure and all speculation at this point but if it is 20000 euros, they just lost me. My opinion and mine only is tops 15 K US Body only. This is almost double a D3X and on par with a P30 Plus and HD 31 which theses should be the market comparable and not the 39 mg which I think Leica is comparing against. It is not just the MPX size here it is a smaller sensor and more in-line with the Kodak Micro sensor backs of the HD 31 and P30 plus. At least this is the way i see the balance and besides all that stuff again my opinion to get it off the ground the price should be low for about a million reasons. Honestly I will be making a move before than anyway on something bigger and faster than my back, unless Leica can convince me the price will be in my ballpark. My phone is open and they know the number. LOL.

Frankly in my warped world this should be 12k and that is 50 percent bigger sensor size than a D3X and 50 percent increase in price. Seems LOGICAL

 

[robmac]

Assuming accurate (who the hell knows), it is an admittedly fine line between 'late summer' and 'autumn' - might just be semantics.

That said, Leica did just get some modest extra financing from IIRC Dr K's holding/management company due, in part, to 'delayed new products', so...

With LFI 'test' (with LFI it's never really a 'test', but anyway...) indicating AF not on-line, slow processing and the S2 power management firmware not being functional (a.k.a. was chewing thru batteries), they may have been a bit aggressive in the timing. Tis one of the hazards of doing everything in-house.

The price. Ouch. If true (and probably is/or close to it. This is Leica after all), the reported $$$ and (possible) delay are just not good in this market - not by anyone's definition.

Edit: Just read the article. I do wish Leica would get it's PR/Marketing policy/strategy in one bag. Assuming not a gross misquote, a random comment by some spokesman dropping a bomb like a possible R10 in January 2010 "...if we're really lucky." is no way to inform your R base of the state of events.

 

[JanRSmit]

A Hasselblad H3D-II-39 incl 80mm/2.8 lens does EUR 17k incl VAT(19%). If this is the reference for the S2, surely Leica either must have something compelling else the S2 price incl 70mm/2.5 lens should be equal or less, i would think.

IQ is Technology, PQ is YOU

Jan R.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

The HD 39 here in the states with body and lens is 22k, the Hd 31 is 17K with body and lens . The issue is they can't match dollar for dollar against a Hassy or a Phase that has everything already in place and there new to the market and if you want to gain market share you need to not compete with it you need to STEAL market share by cutting the price to get people in the door. I can't think of too many folks that will do a lateral shift for the same money on a system coming to market that is not even established with service, support, sales and a full system ready to rock and roll. I would love to have it as many would also but we need a lot of love here.

 

[JanRSmit]

Guy,

Agree, so interesting times ahead of us as to what Leica will do, like you stated, to STEAL the market. Mindboggling quality difference is hard to believe, so price is the alternative i can think of.

IQ is Technology, PQ is YOU

Jan R.

The HD 39 here in the states with body and lens is 22k, the Hd 31 is 17K with body and lens . The issue is they can't match dollar for dollar against a Hassy or a Phase that has everything already in place and there new to the market and if you want to gain market share you need to not compete with it you need to STEAL market share by cutting the price to get people in the door. I can't think of too many folks that will do a lateral shift for the same money on a system coming to market that is not even established with service, support, sales and a full system ready to rock and roll. I would love to have it as many would also but we need a lot of love here.

 

[LJL]

I think it interesting that we keep coming around to the same point....if Leica wants to get into the market successfully with the S2, it has to price it very aggressively, it has to deliver on S&S, and it needs to get the rest of the glass done very soon, and at prices that are not so over the top it stops hearts ;-)

The concept of "50% larger sensor, therefore only 50% higher price" is not really that far off, and when you do compare that to H3DII-31/39 pricing, $12K is "feeling" about right to get into this game for both Leica and those looking at the S2 from other lines and platforms. But hey, that is the pro consumer talking, and not the Leica marketing mavens ;-)

LJ

 

[dhsimmonds]

I agree with Guy on this one. The BJP (British Journal of Photography) a reliable weekly Pro journal has a press release from Leica reporting the end of the R line and stating that all R & D effort is now on getting the S2 to market in Autumn 2009 and launching the R10 in January 2010(????). They also confirm the S2 price at 20,000 Euros and as of today (I have just bought some reluctantly!) the Euro is virtually on parity with the pound sterling!

Not too many British pro's will be ordering in advance for the S2 at this price even though the announcement states that it is aimed at fashion photographers! Eur 20K, and that's before investment in lenses!!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I agree LJ .I am not even remotely worried about this thing will not perform up to spec. Most of us have owned leica and they do delivery the quality of image and having played with it , it surely will get it done. The intangibles is the part that we need to believe in. Sales, support, service and price all has to hit the mark at 100 percent on target

 

[carstenw]

This has already been covered. The price is an old price rehashed, from what anyone can tell. Leica has made no new statements. The final price is hoped (by Leica) to be below €15.000. The BJP is just late to the party here.

I don't think it is realistic to say 50% more pixels, 50% more price. That model doesn't work for anyone, not Canon, not Nikon, not Phase, not anyone. The higher end, the more the price gets insane. And that is the way it should be. Everyone picks their own point for getting off the curve.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

They did mention R10 or whatever it is called 4 months after the S2 release is the target

 

[Guy Mancuso]

This has already been covered. The price is an old price rehashed, from what anyone can tell. Leica has made no new statements. The final price is hoped (by Leica) to be below €15.000. The BJP is just late to the party here.

I don't think it is realistic to say 50% more pixels, 50% more price. That model doesn't work for anyone, not Canon, not Nikon, not Phase, not anyone. The higher end, the more the price gets insane. And that is the way it should be. Everyone picks their own point for getting off the curve.

Carsten here is something when I was at PMA that i did and have not mentioned and from a point of view that I admit maybe somewhat suspect when buying but it is a interesting comparison. Say the S2 is 16 k and i just walked out of the Leica booth went over to the Nikon booth picked up the D3X and felt pretty close to the same as the S2 than asked the guy the price, reply 8 k. So immediately in my head i go Hmmm 2 for the price of one. Than i walk over to the Sony booth grab the A900 and it feels the same as the S2, D3x and ask the guy how much , reply 3k. Hmmm 5 for 1 and pocket change. Now forget everything else with sensor size and all that for a second. Do you think that Joe Smith doing the same thing that is NOT overly concerned about pushing the envelope but can get a 24 mpx high end DSLR for 3k is going to say for 15k I can buy one body and 6 lenses or so.

Do people think the same thing and it is happening right now the difference in price between the Sony at 3k and a D3X same MPX and same sensor , they can get 2 Sony's and a 24-70 lens for the cost of ONE Nikon D3x. I know comparing apples to oranges and folks that don't exactly think like you or I and most of this forum BUT this does make you bang your head against the wall.:banghead:

 

[LJL]

This has already been covered. The price is an old price rehashed, from what anyone can tell. Leica has made no new statements. The final price is hoped (by Leica) to be below €15.000. The BJP is just late to the party here.

I don't think it is realistic to say 50% more pixels, 50% more price. That model doesn't work for anyone, not Canon, not Nikon, not Phase, not anyone. The higher end, the more the price gets insane. And that is the way it should be. Everyone picks their own point for getting off the curve.

Carsten,
Not sure I agree about the "price gets insane" part. We have seen that in the past, and with significantly larger sensors in backs. But this S2 sensor is NOT that big. It is using a size that has been done before and at pixel pitch that is being done now, so nothing super new/advanced there. The body and all it offers is totally new in many respects, but it is still pretty much a shell crammed with a sensor and electronics. So, going over the top on "brand" is not going to help Leica penetrate, let alone "steal" any market share. So, from a business perspective, they are going to have to play this market segment they are creating, and there is a pretty narrow slot they have to move through. Price it too low and they will hurt themselves and possibly impart a "too cheap" message. Price it too high and they will not get many takers, so it will wither on the vine. Since it is NOT a full-bore MF system like Phase or Hasselblad, but it IS a lot more than what is in 35mm DSLR-land, folks are going to expect pricing to be somewhere in between.....at least I am. I have paid the "Leica premium" before, but times are different now, and I am much less likely to overspend just for the red dot when I can get as much or more with other things that cost less, but deliver also.

LJ

 

[Forrest Black]

The Red Dot won't be worth a premium to me; I cover all my camera logos over with gaffer's tape.

It is all right to talk about the prices getting insane as long as you are spending other people's money. Impecunious me thinks that the S2 is only worth $9K to me i.e. about 50% more than the Canon 1DsM3.

I know that Carsten will be first in line for one at any price. Are you getting the one with Serial Number 002, Carsten? 001 has been reserved for Chief Kaufmann.

 

[robmac]

So IF the S2 IS 20,000 Euros or thereabouts, where does that put any possible baby brother -- assuming they get, as they put it "...very lucky"?

Given any R10 will share a lot of the same tech with the S2, its' also going to share a very good percentage of the hardware (and labor) costs -- even more so if it comes out while the S2 is still immature (a big assumption) and thus hasn't recovered a lot of its development costs.

Having more bodies using the same parts, etc will save development costs on the R10 and help recover common R&D costs, but any R10 will be priced relative to that of the S2 - partly by choice and partly out of necessity.

So, a 12,000 Euro R10 vs a 20,000 Euro S2, or how about a 10,000 Euro SLR? Lot of coin for an SLR these days, let alone in 2010/11 - I don't care whose glass you can bolt to the front of it.

The difference between any possible R10 when/if it's released and whatever a D3x/D700x/1Ds_/A9xx is going for at the time will buy a LOT of older R lenses and adapters, spare bodies - not to mention AF Nikon G and Sony/Zeiss glass.