Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

[LJL]

in fairness, maybe the entire phrase "assuming it is released" should be accompanied by more caveats. Leica has a lot invested in the S2 at this point. Prototypes exist, lenses exist, meaning there is probably more than just the prototype build line in place. They are still talking "late Summer 2009" or so. The economy is grim. The price floor also dropped quite a bit with Hasselblad and Phase/Mamiya announcing their repricing on things. In other words, things are not even close to what may have been used in manufacturing and profitability calculations when the S2 was conceived and later announced. So, Leica could decide to sit on release for a while, hoping the economy recovers enough to get folks being able to spend again. The gamble there is whether they would have lost any more ground on their plans for a new market entrant, and whether the tech going into the presently designed S2 would really start to be outdated. Would they release something that was even further behind the curve, at a later date? Or, would the S2 become the S2.2 or S3 by the time they got it out the door? Not an easy call on that.

With respect to Leica not releasing something they have announced....well, we do not have the full frame M8/M9 that was talked about and "promised" before. We do not have the successor to the R9 as was promised for some time. In fairness, there is supposed to be a significant revamp, utilizing the new tech gained from the S2 line, etc., but no mention of when or even if anymore. There was never the updates promised for the DMR, as far as I can tell. So, in a sense, they have made announcements for things that have not materialized, for various reasons. The point being, that the S2 could be delayed a lot, shelved, or transformed into something else. Maybe not so likely, but as Marc said, none of us have ever seen an economy like what we are in right now, and the Fortune 500 companies have lost 84% of their collective values since last year. My accountant commented that the average losses posted by his well-off clients was 47% of their portfolios. That is not insignificant.

Anyway, I am trying to take a more optimistic perspective on things, but am always being grounded by the reality that surrounds us when new clients are harder to come by and old ones are not spending but a fraction of what they used to. If the S2 comes into this environment at 2007-2008 Leica premium prices, they may not sell very many at all....even to the Ferrari folks, as those folks may no have their Ferraris any longer either ;-)

LJ

 

[TimWright]

I would love to know when and where a FF M8 or M9 was promised. I think Leica has acknowledged that at some point the technology might be in place to produce one but I have never seen or heard of them promising one.

 

[cmb_]

I would love to know when and where a FF M8 or M9 was promised. I think Leica has acknowledged that at some point the technology might be in place to produce one but I have never seen or heard of them promising one.

I think the inverse is what is true - all the M users (plus others) have promised to buy a full frame digital M if it is produced!!!

 

[ptomsu]

WRT Leica rolling out and supporting products, there is a history and unfortunately a very bad one over the last years.

FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO FORTUNATELY HAVE NOT MADE THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES IN THAT HISTORY PLEASE READ - AND ENJOY!

1) DMR was promised since 2001 and hit the shelves 2005 (far too late). Cold be only delivered in small numbers and half of them had issues with the bodies they were attached to.

2) DMR firmware was "no support" for me. Far too less updates in much too long time intervals and the main issue - WB - they NEVER managed

3) Suddenly and without any signs the DMR was no longer available and later the complete R System was stopped. And this was really unexpected. And no path into the future was and is shown so far!

4) The M8 came to the market with SERIOUS flaws - IR filter!

5) Many of the M glass, which is great on film is not so great on digital - see 1.4/35 ASPH.

6) They bring the Ferrari lenses for M (1.4 wides and faster Nocti) instead of a M9 FF

7) Many of the M's have (had) to be resent several times to CS in order to make them work well and ok within their spec's.

Now think S System and S2.

a) If it also comes 2 years or even longer after initial promise to the market (like DMR) it will be there around 2012.

b) If it has flaws like the DMR and the M8 (and Leica has and could not prove so far they can do better, it is all our wishful thinking alone) then it will take another 1-2 years till they do things right.

c) If price history is right, then the S System will be priced equally or most likely more expensive than current MF solutions. All with the hint it is Leica and Leica is better etc etc

d) We do not know about their service and support strategy, they still have to prove it works over the next years.

e) And finally, they have to prove they continue the S System and not just introduce on the market, sell to some wealthy folks, like DMR or D-System and than let the systems disappear.

In the end of the day - who is going to trust again and invest in high priced products of such a company? Especially in such tough economic times? And if we all know the product can in best case perform well if all the issues listed above can be neglected? Which is not the case?

As you can see thy burned me badly!!!

 

[carstenw]

You can make a list like this for Mamiya/Phase, for Hasselblad, for Canon... you are mixing unfulfilled promises, unfulfilled hopes, and skepticism. These are all potential issues, but the only one which discusses unfulfilled announcements is 1), and the DMR was announced in 2003 and was in the hands of users in 2005. The S2 was announced for the end of the summer, i.e. no later than September. Let's see what happens.

 

[Paratom]

Peter,
I think you forgot 2 points:
Both, the DMR and the M8 have offered (and still do) class leading image quality at lower ISOs.(M8 up to 640 ISO)
If we let max resolution (for big prints) aside I am still convinced that both M8 and DMR in combination with excellent Leica lenses surpass the IQ I can get with my D3x. Leica has fixed all M8 issues.

WRT Leica rolling out and supporting products, there is a history and unfortunately a very bad one over the last years.

FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO FORTUNATELY HAVE NOT MADE THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES IN THAT HISTORY PLEASE READ - AND ENJOY!

1) DMR was promised since 2001 and hit the shelves 2005 (far too late). Cold be only delivered in small numbers and half of them had issues with the bodies they were attached to.

2) DMR firmware was "no support" for me. Far too less updates in much too long time intervals and the main issue - WB - they NEVER managed

3) Suddenly and without any signs the DMR was no longer available and later the complete R System was stopped. And this was really unexpected. And no path into the future was and is shown so far!

4) The M8 came to the market with SERIOUS flaws - IR filter!

5) Many of the M glass, which is great on film is not so great on digital - see 1.4/35 ASPH.

6) They bring the Ferrari lenses for M (1.4 wides and faster Nocti) instead of a M9 FF

7) Many of the M's have (had) to be resent several times to CS in order to make them work well and ok within their spec's.

Now think S System and S2.

a) If it also comes 2 years or even longer after initial promise to the market (like DMR) it will be there around 2012.

b) If it has flaws like the DMR and the M8 (and Leica has and could not prove so far they can do better, it is all our wishful thinking alone) then it will take another 1-2 years till they do things right.

c) If price history is right, then the S System will be priced equally or most likely more expensive than current MF solutions. All with the hint it is Leica and Leica is better etc etc

d) We do not know about their service and support strategy, they still have to prove it works over the next years.

e) And finally, they have to prove they continue the S System and not just introduce on the market, sell to some wealthy folks, like DMR or D-System and than let the systems disappear.

In the end of the day - who is going to trust again and invest in high priced products of such a company? Especially in such tough economic times? And if we all know the product can in best case perform well if all the issues listed above can be neglected? Which is not the case?

As you can see thy burned me badly!!!

 

[fotografz]

Peter,
I think you forgot 2 points:
Both, the DMR and the M8 have offered (and still do) class leading image quality at lower ISOs.(M8 up to 640 ISO)
If we let max resolution (for big prints) aside I am still convinced that both M8 and DMR in combination with excellent Leica lenses surpass the IQ I can get with my D3x. Leica has fixed all M8 issues.

"Class leading" is subjective. I'd agree with-in the bounds of a very narrow band of conditions ... so narrow that one is forced to also have alternatives ... like your D3X.

DMR: not useful for fast work, low light work, flash work (no TTL), wide angle work (crop frame), and any larger applications, no longer supported with updates, the system it's dedicated to is now out of production. When constrained to that degree, there are other choices like a simple 22 meg AF MFD that out-perform it in both speed and IQ. Not to mention use of R or Zeiss lenses on a 35mm FF DSLR camera with a high ISO sensor using fat pixels ... like a D700.

Plus, (purely subjectively) the DMR IQ has been challenged by the upstart Sony A900 using some pretty darned good Zeiss AF optics and few of the constraints ... at a fraction of the cost.

I liked my DMR, but it was an extravagance befitting the fat indulgent years, not the lean ones were are in now. It was neither fish nor fowl and unusable for 90% of the "Real World" work that puts bread on the table.

In retrospect, the DMR was launched crippled ... it was the second time I fell for the IQ misdirection (the Contax ND was the other), but did I learn my lesson?, noooooo ... they were followed by a third strike: the M8. Three strikes and I'm out. I'm now a card carrying skeptic.

I didn't realize the M8 had been fixed. No IR filters needed anymore? No 6 bit coding anymore? No crop frame that turns a expensive W/As into a normal field of view? No more focus shift from the 35 Lux? No more freakin' specular highlight reflections ruining images from having to use the IR filter? Wahoo! Maybe I can return to using my M8 for the reasons I originally paid through the nose for.

Get real :ROTFL:

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

The M8 beat the D3X for IQ? I'd love to see that.

 

[ptomsu]

Neither the DMR nor the M8 are fixed!

You can decide to live with their flaws and then within their area of proper functioning they are great, but these areas are small (too small for me).

But folks, I am starting to struggle with another issue here - the Phase prices and support in general: listen to the following ....

1) H3D2 /80 / 39MP / new for €14.990. versus Phase One /80/ P45+ refurbished for €15.990. or same thing new for €19.990.- These are €5.000.- difference and NOBODY can convince me that the Phase solution is SO MUCH BETTER than the Hassi solution (if at all better) to justify this big difference!

2) Phase support versus Hasselblad support (at least here in Austria):

Phase: there is 1 guy at the Austrian dealer who knows the product, but as I say it is one person. How to handle all the requests even from small, little, tiny Austria? There is a German person responsible for the region, but as I say the region is Germany, Austria and I do not know what else - maybe Swiss and this is not enough again.

Hasselblad: there is a dedicated Hasselblad representative in Austria, they mainly sell Hasselblad and some tripods and flash systems, but that's it. And there are more than 1 people there who know the product range and who you can ask, so finally in the end of the day a much much better support.

And PLEASE, don't get me wrong, I do not blame the 2 guys on the Phase One distribution side, as they are VERY knowledgeable and friendly, but they cannot split themselves and do not scale for such an expensive and complicated product solution! Phase needs to adress this, and if they do not I will be out of this gane!

Now - if we speculate what will happen with the S System - Leica has a contract with Phase, I think they will also use the Phase distributor network. If this is true, then "no thank you!"

I do not want for this amount of money I will spend to wait on the telephone till I get someone who can talk to me and is on my level but is already stressed b the next call or customer coming in. Sorry, no! I want someone pick my call almost immediately and say friendly: "What can I do for you Mr. Tomsu?"

Also if this sounds arrogant, it derives purely from experience of my life and I am not going to play the waiting game in support if I already have to pay the fool-tax upfront

 

[TimWright]

I didn't realize the M8 was broken. I have no problem with the IR filters. I gladly put up with this in favor of image quality. The AA filter on my 1dsmk3 is horrible. Crop also doesn't bother me although I can see where it would for some but everyone who bought one knows it is a crop camera. If you want problems get a Canon both of mine just spent 4 weeks in for the focus problem. One sent back with a message "Number not within range" no other explanation even canon cannot tell me what it means. My Canon stuff has spent far more time in service than my M8. Granted I may have been luckier than some but in the half dozen people that I know with an M8 only 1 has had to go in as the range fider was off slightly.

 

[ptomsu]

I didn't realize the M8 was broken. I have no problem with the IR filters. I gladly put up with this in favor of image quality. The AA filter on my 1dsmk3 is horrible. Crop also doesn't bother me although I can see where it would for some but everyone who bought one knows it is a crop camera. If you want problems get a Canon both of mine just spent 4 weeks in for the focus problem. One sent back with a message "Number not within range" no other explanation even canon cannot tell me what it means. My Canon stuff has spent far more time in service than my M8. Granted I may have been luckier than some but in the half dozen people that I know with an M8 only 1 has had to go in as the range fider was off slightly.

So obviously experiences differ significantly, as I see the whole situation almost 180 degree opposite to you

 

[carstenw]

Well, there is not much reason to spar verbally, clearly everyone has their own experience. My experience with the M8, and that of people around me, has been almost uniformly positive, apart from the IR issue and one or two other glitches.

Peter, it is also my experience as I tried to track down Phase prices that the Hasselblads were cheaper, and equal or better in most ways (lens lineup, tilt-shift solution, leaf shutters (two-edged sword), user upgradeable firmware, brighter viewfinder, faster AF, ...), except long exposure, which is sadly what I am looking for.

The Phase/Leica relationship I believe is only about access to Capture One, not about distribution or sales. Selected top Leica dealers will receive extended training with the S2, and I don't know what happens beyond that. I presume that some sales personnel from Leica will at least try to get the S2 into the rental channels, at least in the largest markets.

But there is another perspective here. Leica is trying to position the S2 as a super-DSLR, with very high quality (but not the ISO of a D3, nor the shooting rate of the 1D3, to say the least). If they succeed in this, support for this camera will be much less crucial than the current MF market. I hope that they succeed, but it is admittedly an open question.

 

[dfarkas]

The DMR was developed and produced in collaboration with Imacon. Leica was not their top priority so development schedules were continually pushed back. As to why DMR production and firmware updates stopped... easy, Imacon was merged into Hasselblad. Hasselblad reigned in resources to work on in-house projects and Leica was left high and dry with no recourse. As others have mentioned, the DMR still produces phenomenal results. Perhaps some might recall a certain thread comparing the 10MP DMR to the 16.7MP 1dsII, where the DMR posted superior and more pleasing results consistently, despite the Canon having a 67% pixel advantage with a larger FF sensor.

The R lenses will be able to be used on the next R camera, which will come next year as Leica has already said. New AF R lenses will take the system forward. I don't see Leica abandoning R at all. They just decided they could have more market impact by getting the S2 out first. All the technology is shared between S and R, so it is pretty safe to assume that the next R camera will be a baby S2. If the S2 is as good as it promises to be (and as good as I've experienced personally in the prototypes), the R will be equally so, just in a smaller format.

The M8 and now M8.2 has been my daily camera for the last 2+ years. It travels with me wherever I go and I am continually surprised at the quality such a small camera produces. I don't mind the IR filters and haven't had a single camera problem myself. Out of the many, many M8s that I've sold, none had electrical/freezing issues and only a few (M8s, not any M8.2s so far) had misaligned rangefinders. Since I tested them with my customers before they left the store (or shipped them out), I was able to just swap these ones out with a new, perfect one, and send the one with bad rangefinder back to Leica. I guess this falls under working with a good dealer from the start, just like with MFD.

Would I like a FF M9 with lower noise beyond 640 ISO and a bit higher resolution? Of course, but I am not suffering today and I routinely make outstanding 20x30 prints from my photos. I use a WATE and am totally satisfied with the wide angle coverage at 16mm. I don't shoot sports and have no more need for additional fps.

And, just as Leica worked with Imacon on the DMR, they partnered with MFD company Jenoptik to design the hardware and firmware of the M8. Kodak sold them on the IR filtration on the CCD being adequate (I've seen the spectral sensitivity chart and the IR allowed to pass certainly looks minuscule and insignificant). I was a beta tester for the M8 back in August 2006. Shooting over 1000 shots in four days, from a professional location fashion shoot with strobes, to street shooting, night shooting, and whatever I could point a camera at, I never noticed the IR issue. Why not? The reason was simple - no one wears black synthetic fabrics in August in Miami! Once winter hit up north and the black fleece came out, all bets were off.

FWIW, I've tested a Nikon D70 and it has IR bleed that is far worse than the M8. Test one for yourself to see. The D70/D70s was one of the most successful DSLRs ever for Nikon, selling about 1 million cameras. No one noticed. No one cared. Yes, the Leica was 5 times the price, so it was held to a higher standard. Leica didn't have to provide two free IR filters, but it was the right thing to do once the problem was identified.

With the S2, Leica has learned their lessons of the past working with technology partners. The S2 was developed and designed 100% in-house with fresh new talent working side-by-side with experienced camera engineers. The S2 went from a drawing board idea to full-working prototypes with real lenses in less than six months (April 08 - Sept 08). We probably would have seen the S2 earlier (and possibly an M9 and/or R10 as well) if Steven Lee hadn't been at the reigns. He shelved the AFRIKa project indefinitely a few months before he was removed from power. He also rushed the M8 to market before it could be thoroughly tested and vetted. His philosophy was that it was better to be on time than to be 100% right. Luckily, Lee is no longer calling the shots. Since Christian Erhardt has taken over Service in the USA, turnaround time has been reduced to 50% of what it was. He successfully orchestrated over 1000 M8 upgrades in the US with an average turnaround of one week. Christian is currently putting an S2 support staff together and organizing the professional service necessary for a product like the S2.

A lot of money, thought, and planning has gone into the S2. It will be on time and it will be done right. The already stable platform in prototype stage will be that much more so in the production model. I understand the skepticism to some degree based on past misgivings, but I'm confident, based on what I've seen and what I know, that the S2 will be a reliable, dependable, robust, and truly professional system. Pricing, I'm assured by Leica, will be competitive. Not a fairy-tale at <$10K (let's be realistic, folks), but comparable to P45+/H3DII-39. And I don't see anyone complaining how much more the P65+ costs for what Jack has pointed out is incremental gains.

I apologize for the long-winded post, but I felt that some history needed to be clarified from an insider's perspective.

David

 

[ptomsu]

@ David

While many of your arguments are valid, not all of them are true, but I would not like to go into these details as it does not change anything on the principle issue:

Many of us have been disappointed several times over the past years with the product policy and the support and quality especially from Leica digital products. As I said I was badly burned by the DMR and had several issues with the M8 before it now works sufficiently reliable with my M glass.

Now, as I am trying to find the truth around MF solutions (existing ones like H System, Phase) and future ones (S-System) I see a pretty stable product portfolio from Phase and Hasselblad and I can judge their support somehow at least over the last years. And I see also some future strategy of both of them, although this is not always what I like, but at least they have plans and they somehow executed over the last years, maybe also not perfect, but still ok for me.

But if it comes to Leica, I only see promises. Promises, which I no longer believe in before they have not proven that they can do different as they did over the last years. I do not give anything on their probably internal mismanagement or bad and wrong decisions over the last many years, in the end of the day their arrogance brought them in the situation they are in now. If there is Dr. Kaufmann and he invests his money into a future he believes in (one also could say he wastes his money if you are negative), then I am ok, but would I trust this company upfront again after all the bad experiences I had with them over the past years? Clearly NO!

Even if they managed to develop the holy grail in MF cameras (which I doubt) it is still just an idea as long as it has not proven reliability in daily operation, exceptional results in IQ and optimal support in case of questions, issues and repair, as well as a clear path into the future, which I cannot see for long term even at best will.

I wish them all the best, good luck and much success with that project, but I only will believe what I see in reality and over time.

Obviously you are in a different position as one of their biggest advocats, which is fine as well and maybe many folks will believe in all these nice stories. And I wish all of you that you are on the side of truth.

But I am still in doubt about this S System, its success and its support and long term future. And BTW I hope future will prove me wrong!

 

[LJL]

David,
Get us a hard release date for the S2, its lenses AND the price points, and we can put this discussion to rest a bit ;-)

In the meantime, I am not stopping looking at the Hasselblads, as I think they provide the next best solution for what I think I need from MF.

It is just past mid-April. My guess, based on what Leica has said in the past, is that we have about 4 months or so for the S2 to come to market. That would suggest that it is pretty near its "final" stages of tweaking, getting readied for the first wave of releases. Are there going to be any images released? Are there going to be any beta-testers that can seriously put the camera through some paces? Sure would be nice to start seeing some stuff and hearing some solid new reports beyond the prototype things you and others have reported on. (I really did appreciate your review, but I still want to see some images and image files....with several of the lenses.)

Without hard dates and prices, there is little persuasive commentary to assuage those of us harboring some real skepticism and doubt....based on our own experiences.

LJ

 

[fotografz]

I didn't realize the M8 was broken. I have no problem with the IR filters. I gladly put up with this in favor of image quality. The AA filter on my 1dsmk3 is horrible. Crop also doesn't bother me although I can see where it would for some but everyone who bought one knows it is a crop camera. If you want problems get a Canon both of mine just spent 4 weeks in for the focus problem. One sent back with a message "Number not within range" no other explanation even canon cannot tell me what it means. My Canon stuff has spent far more time in service than my M8. Granted I may have been luckier than some but in the half dozen people that I know with an M8 only 1 has had to go in as the range fider was off slightly.

Count yourself very lucky Tim ... of the half a dozen people I know they all had horrible M8 issues ... and even with fixed cameras do not trust the camera ... nor do I.

I don't disagree concerning Canon IQ ... which is why I don't shoot with one any more ... but have to give credit to the string of Canons I used for tough duty shooting weddings ... not one failure, not one lost image, and the fix to the 1DMKIII focus took exactly one week door-to-door ... where the M8 and 75% of my M lenses were gone for 5 months! Then, it STILL wasn't right!

IQ means absolutely nothing if you do not have the camera to shoot with.

I'm pissed because I had REALLY counted on using a pair of M8s to shoot weddings so I didn't have to lug around a bag of bricks ... as it turned out I'd never endanger my clients based on some silly incremental and subjective IQ argument ... I would shoot their wedding with a Canon Digital Rebel before trusting a M8 ... unless I had at least 4 of them with me (for a mere $20K). My clients buy my content, not some vague notions in an internet IQ arguement.

 

[dougpeterson]

Pricing, I'm assured by Leica, will be competitive. Not a fairy-tale at <$10K (let's be realistic, folks), but comparable to P45+/H3DII-39. And I don't see anyone complaining how much more the P65+ costs for what Jack has pointed out is incremental gains.

I'm quoting this post just for posterity sake.

We're all dying to see where this goes. If you cryogenically froze me ad I woke up in two years I would be not be surprised to find that Leica was very successful with the S2 and had an S3 announced to take their greatest asset (their glass) into the future. Nor would I be surprised to find out it was a giant dud either because the body or lenses were priced too high, had out-of-the-gate issues, the release was delayed, competitive products had made it out-of-date even before launch, or because Leica chose to go it alone on software, service, support, and distribution.

In the meanwhile the P65+ is priced high, because it has:
- the highest resolution
- the largest sensor (100% viewfinder coverage)
- the highest dynamic range
- very fast shooting (1 fps @ 60mp or up to 1.4 fps @ 15mp)
- ISO range from 50-3200
- it has Phase One's industry leading software, support, service
- Phase One has a history of open platform and upgrade programs
- it's a shipping product and not a prototype

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
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[TimWright]

I don't disagree concerning Canon IQ ... which is why I don't shoot with one any more ... but have to give credit to the string of Canons I used for tough duty shooting weddings ... not one failure, not one lost image, and the fix to the 1DMKIII focus took exactly one week door-to-door ... where the M8 and 75% of my M lenses were gone for 5 months! Then, it STILL wasn't right!

IQ means absolutely nothing if you do not have the camera to shoot with.

I'm pissed because I had REALLY counted on using a pair of M8s to shoot weddings so I didn't have to lug around a bag of bricks ....

Ya that sucks. I got my M8 out of the first delivery in the fall of 06. Of course it did have to go back to Solms for the fix but with the money I saved in getting a wate I didn't really mind. I had a lockup once doing a firmware update and it had to go to NJ for service. Took it to my dealer and turn around was 4 days. Sent it in for the shutter and frame lines upgrade and I think it took 7 days. I have shot weddings with it in combo with a 5D and lately with a 1DSMK3 and haven't had an issue with either camera. The autofocus issue is another story. Canon has by far the worst service (at least in Canada) everyone I have talked to has given me a different story and I still do not know if they have fixed either of my 1D's. I have had no worries about the functioning of my M8 except when very cold and I know the batteries wont last. I regularly travel with it in the saddlebag of my motorcycle (a Harley) that does not have the smoothest ride on camping trips lasting at least a week. I know it isn't rain proof but all in all I have been pretty happy.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Food fight. LOL

Seriously I am down to the bottom line on the S2. Comes down to a few simple well chosen industrial words that been around before i have "Show me the money". BUT I will keep on truckin with gear that is available today or a month away and anything past that for me at least is a wet dream. I can't count on future products and no matter how much i would want one . Realistically I won't consider it until the whole system is out , running and proofing it's pudding. The S2 is too far away from my point purchasing time if there is one, to even think about it. It's nice I had it in my hands and played with it but too me sorry it is not on the same price point as a P45/H3 39.

 

[woodyspedden]

I need to jump in here as well.

I bought two M8's from the first batch in November 2006 and some of the issues I had with service as many of the initial issues were dealt with have been reported here. Never became happy with Leica service although my last two experiences (lately) are about as good as I expect from either Canon or Nikon.

Leica made a serious mistake by choosing to have their firmware contracted out to Imacon. While it probably seemed expedient at the time in order to get the M8 to market, in hindsight it was a disaster as Imacon went their separate way as a result of the merger with Hasselblad and Leica was left having little or none of the software expertise in house. Both M8's and DMRs suffered gravely as a result. The first production run of 1000 units of the DMR were sold rather quickly. The problem is that without Imacon leica probably believed it far too risky to be tied to Imacon as a critical supplier for another 1000 backs. So the DMR project came to a premature end. However for those of us who owned and some who still own the product it performed very well indeed for what it was intended. I don't disagree with Marc Williams about the need for AF but what the DMR was and wasn't at the time it was introduced and we were buying was well known.

I believe that, since then, Leica has learned a great deal about the engineering and marketing of digital cameras. Thus I don't believe the S2 will replicate the issues of either the DMR or the M8.s I expect the issues to be more of the norm with regard to digital launches i.e. not perfect but manageable. It seems to me the concepts and prototypes were rather well known at the time of introduction at Photokina. The fact that multiple bodies were functional with at least one lens is pretty remarkable considering the magnitude of the project.

In any event, the proof of the pudding is indeed in the eating. Acknowledging the very real problems leica had with the introduction of the M8's my two bodies function very well after over two and 1/2 years of constant use. The IQ of the files is still amazing at just 10Mpx and I would not trade them for my D3 files except in the area of high ISO which is why I have the Nikons.

JMHO

Woody