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Thread: X1D 4116 first impressions

  1. #51
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    I don't think there is "shutter lag". There is "EVF lag" in the form a blackout after the first shot before the EVF returns, but that is totally different to me. If the exposure is made close to instantaneously with the pressing of the shutter, then I don't think there is shutter lag. I agree that EVF lag is not good, but I can live with that.
    Is there indeed shutter lag, because different folk seem to be coming to different conclusions, whereas most are reporting EVF lag.

    I already have a camera that exhibits EVF lag and would rather not have another. Hopefully in the case of the X1D it can be fixed with a FW update.

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Is there indeed shutter lag, because different folk seem to be coming to different conclusions, whereas most are reporting EVF lag.

    I already have a camera that exhibits EVF lag and would rather not have another. Hopefully in the case of the X1D it can be fixed with a FW update.
    From an earlier post of mine:
    "I read in Kevin Raber's review of the X1D that the X1D had "shutter lag." After the X1D I ordered arrived last week, I did some shooting with it and really did not detect what I would describe as obvious shuttler lag. I think there is likely a perception of shutter lag because the leaf shutter makes three distinct clicks after the shutter is depressed. However, the first click is quite instantaneous, the second click follows quickly after the first click, and the third is quite delayed. While I am not sure exactly what is happening, I did a Slo Mo Video of a stop watch with my iPhone with a Nikon SB-700 flash mounted on the X1D and, as best as I can tell, there is a delay of about 10 one hundredths of a second or 100 milliseconds between the shutter being depressed and the exposure. This a relatively crude test, but it is the best I could do. By way of comparison, a Canon 1DX has a delay of 43 milliseconds, a Leica M9 has a delay of 80 milliseconds, and the Hassy H has a delay of 160 milliseconds. So, while I am not sure quite yet, the issue of shutter lag on the X1D may turn out to be a Red Herring. At least for my use cases, it is a total nonissue."
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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Unless a continuous mode is really really fast, I guess I don't see what it offers as I would think you lose control over the timing of the shutter relative to when you want the exposure made. I do get the issue with the blackout delay. I can see how that would be problematic.
    In some applications, a burst of the shutter in continuous mode as opposed to single shutter firing, in the hopes of capturing a few keys shots while the subject is moving (even if slowly) while changing their orientation may be necessary. It some of my own personal applications because of the need for file size, a medium format camera was advantageous and have used this format (with OVF) in such a manner successfully. If the viewfinder was blacked out, it wouldn't be possible as I'd have no idea how to frame the subjects as they moved. As pointed out by Keith, a single shot alternative by repeatedly pressing the shutter button wouldn't work with or at the very least be a distinct disadvantage in such cases. As aptly pointed out to me by another forum member, there is always the possibility that this blackout might be addressed in future firmware updates and I think it would be very much welcomed.

    Again this is only one aspect of a camera and everyone has different priorities for certain features. In many other respects, the X1D has a lot of advantages, even compared to other MFD camera. I am very impressed with so many aspects of the X1D and released lenses so far from what I've seen and heard.

    Again we all have our own expectations of performance and operational characteristics when we choose a camera. There is no right or wrong, just preferences.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 30th January 2017 at 08:18.

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    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    I've posted the following question on LuLa in the hopes we can get further clarification from Kevin and or others.

    I've read various hand on experiences with the X1D almost all of which report EVF lag but very few reporting shutter lag. I wonder if there could be confusion between the two and if Kevin or anyone else with hands on experience could add further clarification?

    We shall see.

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    In some applications, a burst of the shutter in continuous mode as opposed to single shutter firing, in the hopes of capturing a few keys shots while the subject is moving (even if slowly) while changing their orientation may be necessary. It some of my own personal applications because of the need for file size, a medium format camera was advantageous and have used this format (with OVF) in such a manner successfully. If the viewfinder was blacked out, it wouldn't be possible as I'd have no idea how to frame the subjects as they moved. As pointed out by Keith, a single shot alternative by repeatedly pressing the shutter button wouldn't work with or at the very least be a distinct disadvantage in such cases. As aptly pointed out to me by another forum member, there is always the possibility that this blackout might be addressed in future firmware updates and I think it would be very much welcomed.

    Again this is only one aspect of a camera and everyone has different priorities for certain features. In many other respects, the X1D has a lot of advantages, even compared to other MFD camera. I am very impressed with so many aspects of the X1D and released lenses so far from what I've seen and heard.

    Again we all have our own expectations of performance and operational characteristics when we choose a camera. There is no right or wrong, just preferences.

    Dave (D&A)
    Dave, I understand completely. Your comments are very thoughtful and constructive.
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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    I've posted the following question on LuLa in the hopes we can get further clarification from Kevin and or others.

    I've read various hand on experiences with the X1D almost all of which report EVF lag but very few reporting shutter lag. I wonder if there could be confusion between the two and if Kevin or anyone else with hands on experience could add further clarification?

    We shall see.
    I think the observation by owners needs to be described as both a shutter lag and EVF blackout. I used the X1D in a studio situation yesterday with strobes. The strobes do not fire on the initial press of the shutter button. The EVF does black out on the initial, then a slight pause and then the flash. So in my view, there is a shutter lag or the strobe would fire instantly. There is also a relatively lengthy EVF blackout that exceeds the shutter lag. Its hard to say how annoying the shutter lag would be if the EVF blackout were shorter. I think the length of the blackout gives the impression that the shutter lag is longer than it is. For example, if you take two quick shots in a row of the exact same scene, the EVF refreshes faster and the perception is that the shutter lag was less. So in short, I think shutter lag is there, but it's only really obvious with flash. Flash seems to fire on 2nd of the 3 clicks, but hard to be sure if thats reality or just a lag in my hearing. I'm more than willing to live with it, under the assumption that HB will improve it over time.
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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by mkerouac View Post
    I think the observation by owners needs to be described as both a shutter lag and EVF blackout. I used the X1D in a studio situation yesterday with strobes. The strobes do not fire on the initial press of the shutter button. The EVF does black out on the initial, then a slight pause and then the flash. So in my view, there is a shutter lag or the strobe would fire instantly. There is also a relatively lengthy EVF blackout that exceeds the shutter lag. Its hard to say how annoying the shutter lag would be if the EVF blackout were shorter. I think the length of the blackout gives the impression that the shutter lag is longer than it is. For example, if you take two quick shots in a row of the exact same scene, the EVF refreshes faster and the perception is that the shutter lag was less. So in short, I think shutter lag is there, but it's only really obvious with flash. Flash seems to fire on 2nd of the 3 clicks, but hard to be sure if thats reality or just a lag in my hearing. I'm more than willing to live with it, under the assumption that HB will improve it over time.
    Anyone have any idea from a technical standpoint why there would be a blackout of the EVF after the shutter is depressed? Is it a firmware issue, an issue with the speed of the processor, or an issue with the specs of the EVF used in the X1D?

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Isn't this the problem that the shutter has to close first, ending live view and thus producing a blackout, before the shot can be taken?

    Chris

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by cly View Post
    Isn't this the problem that the shutter has to close first, ending live view and thus producing a blackout, before the shot can be taken?

    Chris
    That's right, AFAIK. First click is shutter closing, second is shutter opening for exposure, third is end if exposure, fourth is re-open for live view/EVF.

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Exactly what Tim said. It's a lot of (confusing) clicks. I can understand that some may expect exposure to be on the first click and think the camera is slow because of the next two, three clicks. There's the leaf shutter system for ya.

    Still, it's such a beautiful camera, I'm tempted by her looks, size and weight. The lenses I'm still not sure about, being used to Leica S glass.

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    That's right, AFAIK. First click is shutter closing, second is shutter opening for exposure, third is end if exposure, fourth is re-open for live view/EVF.
    Is it possible for me to post a Slo Mo iPhone video here?

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    That's right, AFAIK. First click is shutter closing, second is shutter opening for exposure, third is end if exposure, fourth is re-open for live view/EVF.
    I assume the same would be true with a focal plane shutter, right, but there are no reports that the Fuji GFX has EVF blackout or shutter lag for that matter.

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Howard, with EFC, that would be just one shutter-close to end the exposure and then open again.

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by peterv View Post
    Howard, with EFC, that would be just one shutter-close to end the exposure and then open again.
    Somehow, Fuji was able to implement EFCS with the same Sony sensor. Any idea if that is "just" firmware, or quite a but more?

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Somehow, Fuji was able to implement EFCS with the same Sony sensor. Any idea if that is "just" firmware, or quite a but more?
    Not the same sensor. Fuji have been saying from the start that the sensor was made to their specs.

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Not the same sensor. Fuji have been saying from the start that the sensor was made to their specs.
    Perhaps I missed something, but the reports I saw described the differences in the sensors as relating to "microlenses." Does that have anything to do with EFCS? I haven't a clue.

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    The microlenses should have nothing to do with ES or EFS options.
    Sale Items (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/gear-fs-...8806-sale.html)
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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    AFAIK cameras that offer the option of EFC exposure do so at the cost of approx 1 stop of DR as compared to mechanical first and second shutters.

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The microlenses should have nothing to do with ES or EFS options.
    Here is a description of the differences in the Sony 50mp sensor as designed by Fuji:
    "[Fuji] also decided to make some hardware related tweaks to the Medium Format sensor. So they customized the microlenses in front of the sensor and optimized the silicon process. This will allow Fujifilm to improve the overall image quality even more."

    Microlenses...nothing to do with EFCS. So, how did Fuji do it?

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    AFAIK cameras that offer the option of EFC exposure do so at the cost of approx 1 stop of DR as compared to mechanical first and second shutters.
    To repeat what I said earlier, this is incorrect.

    ES ("quiet shutter") affects the IQ.

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Here is a description of the differences in the Sony 50mp sensor as designed by Fuji:
    "[Fuji] also decided to make some hardware related tweaks to the Medium Format sensor. So they customized the microlenses in front of the sensor and optimized the silicon process. This will allow Fujifilm to improve the overall image quality even more."

    Microlenses...nothing to do with EFCS. So, how did Fuji do it?
    Electronics/wiring has to be different.

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    AFAIK cameras that offer the option of EFC exposure do so at the cost of approx 1 stop of DR as compared to mechanical first and second shutters.
    Interesting. I had never heard that.

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Hi Tim,

    I don't think that is correct.

    Electronic shutter on the Sony A7r2 is 12-bits though.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    AFAIK cameras that offer the option of EFC exposure do so at the cost of approx 1 stop of DR as compared to mechanical first and second shutters.

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    Electronic shutter...

    Hi,

    EFCS is only possible with a focal plane shutter. It does emulate the first curtain by doing a sweeping reset followed by a mechanical shutter.

    ES shutter emulates the first curtain by a sweeping reset and a sweeping readout. So it is limited by readout time on the sensor, about 1/3s on the 44x33 mm sensor by Sony. It is capable of three frames per second, so readout time is around 1/3 of a second. If the sensor would switch to12 bit readout it could achieve short sweep times.

    The GFX has a focal plane shutter, that causes vibrations, so it needs an EFCS solution. With leaf shutters there would be much less vibration.

    My understanding is that the X1D achieves 1/2000s by using a combination of reset on the sensor to start exposure and using the leaf shutter to terminate it.

    Best regards
    Erik

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    AFAIK cameras that offer the option of EFC exposure do so at the cost of approx 1 stop of DR as compared to mechanical first and second shutters.

    Just wanted to add here as well. It does NOT cost any DR. Some importations of ES do, but it can be done without any impact on image quality. It just takes a longer sweep time.

  26. #76
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Anyone have any idea from a technical standpoint why there would be a blackout of the EVF after the shutter is depressed? Is it a firmware issue, an issue with the speed of the processor, or an issue with the specs of the EVF used in the X1D?
    In the case of the Leica M240 in combination with the EVF2 it's almost certainly both an outdated processor and EVF. I'm not at all sure what the problem with the Hasselblad X1D is but hopefully given it uses a modern processor and EVF it could be fixed with firmware.

    Fingers crossed.

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    Re: Electronic shutter...

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    EFCS is only possible with a focal plane shutter. It does emulate the first curtain by doing a sweeping reset followed by a mechanical shutter.

    ES shutter emulates the first curtain by a sweeping reset and a sweeping readout. So it is limited by readout time on the sensor, about 1/3s on the 44x33 mm sensor by Sony. It is capable of three frames per second, so readout time is around 1/3 of a second. If the sensor would switch to12 bit readout it could achieve short sweep times.

    The GFX has a focal plane shutter, that causes vibrations, so it needs an EFCS solution. With leaf shutters there would be much less vibration.

    My understanding is that the X1D achieves 1/2000s by using a combination of reset on the sensor to start exposure and using the leaf shutter to terminate it.

    Best regards
    Erik
    Then there should be just two clicks to the shutter sound? No?

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    Re: Electronic shutter...

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Then there should be just two clicks to the shutter sound? No?
    I think there are actually 4 clicks. First click closes the shutter and terminates live view. Second click starts exposure by opening the shutter. Third click closes the shutter to finish exposure. Final click is opening shutter again to return to live view. Obviously click 2 and 3 happen very quickly. I don't think a sensor reset would require a click, but could be wrong on that one.

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Another comment on shutter lag from a Leica Forum member who was testing both the M10 and the X1D. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/...asselblad-x1d/

    "I tested the X1D for shutter lag by photographing cars as they passed a set point in the road through a gap in a wall about twenty meters ahead of me, preparing myself by listening for the approaching vehicle and responding in the fraction of a second in which they became visible. No significant lag that I could detect: perhaps a nanosecond behind the M10, but if you miss a picture it will be your fault and not the camera's, unless you're waiting for the AF, which is not the quickest, but I could happily live with it. MF works very nicely, but it's no rangefinder M."

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    Re: Electronic shutter...

    Quote Originally Posted by mkerouac View Post
    I think there are actually 4 clicks. First click closes the shutter and terminates live view. Second click starts exposure by opening the shutter. Third click closes the shutter to finish exposure. Final click is opening shutter again to return to live view. Obviously click 2 and 3 happen very quickly. I don't think a sensor reset would require a click, but could be wrong on that one.
    Yes, I ran another Slo Mo Video which seemed to confirm that. It appears that the first click occured about .07 seconds after the shutter button is depressed. The second click, which is when the flash fired, appeared to be about .12 seconds (120 milliseconds) after the shutter button is depressed. The third click was about .32 seconds after the shutter button was depressed. The fourth click, when the LV on the LCD (not sure about the EVF) reappeared, was about 1.47 seconds after the shutter button was depressed. As I suggested previously, shutter lag does not appear to be an issue. My understanding is that 120 milliseconds is not atypical for a medium format camera. The blackout in the LV is, however, problematic for some uses.
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    Re: Electronic shutter...

    Quote Originally Posted by mkerouac View Post
    I think there are actually 4 clicks. First click closes the shutter and terminates live view. Second click starts exposure by opening the shutter. Third click closes the shutter to finish exposure. Final click is opening shutter again to return to live view. Obviously click 2 and 3 happen very quickly. I don't think a sensor reset would require a click, but could be wrong on that one.
    My point is that if the exposure is made using the shutter and not a sensor sweep then it would make four clicks, being:

    1) Shutter closes to end live view and prepare for exposure
    2) Shutter opens to start exposure
    3) Shutter closes to end exposure
    4) Shutter opens to resume live view.

    If the shutter was using 'electric first curtain' then you would hear two clicks:

    1) Shutter closes at end of an exposure that was initiated by a sweep
    2) Shutter opens to resume live view.

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Just wanted to add here as well. It does NOT cost any DR. Some importations of ES do, but it can be done without any impact on image quality. It just takes a longer sweep time.
    But the longer sweep time is not always practical and can lead to artefacts with some subjects, such as those that move during the sweep. Shorter sweep times do, AFAIK, lead to reduced DR.

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    But the longer sweep time is not always practical and can lead to artefacts with some subjects, such as those that move during the sweep. Shorter sweep times do, AFAIK, lead to reduced DR.

    True but that is for ES not really a problem with EFCS

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    Re: Electronic shutter...

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Yes, I ran another Slo Mo Video which seemed to confirm that. It appears that the first click occured about .07 seconds after the shutter button is depressed. The second click, which is when the flash fired, appeared to be about .12 seconds (120 milliseconds) after the shutter button is depressed. The third click was about .32 seconds after the shutter button was depressed. The fourth click, when the LV on the LCD (not sure about the EVF) reappeared, was about 1.47 seconds after the shutter button was depressed. As I suggested previously, shutter lag does not appear to be an issue. My understanding is that 120 milliseconds is not atypical for a medium format camera. The blackout in the LV is, however, problematic for some uses.
    Thanks very much for the info. Good news about the minimal shutter lag.

    Let's hope that Hasselblad can fix the EVF lag. Whilst it'll be fine for some applications 1.4 seconds lag is nevertheless limiting the camera's uses.

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Please drop an email to Hasselblad requesting integrated step focusing it's been on the request list and the more people that ask the faster they might complete the firmware update including it.
    Send email to Hasselblad
    Last edited by Bob; 9th February 2017 at 16:22.

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Michael Clark posted his review of the X1D 4116 based on his use of DPI member Mike Kerouac's 4116.
    http://blog.michaelclarkphoto.com/?p=5689
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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by wellfleet View Post
    Michael Clark posted his review of the X1D 4116 based on his use of DPI member Mike Kerouac's 4116.
    http://blog.michaelclarkphoto.com/?p=5689
    A very well balanced review that hits the plusses and minuses of the X1D without hyperbole.
    hcubell
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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Would consider if the shuttler lag and EVF improves with firmware.

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    from the "review":

    On the other hand, the X1D is a stellar landscape camera.

    har!

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by drevil View Post
    from the "review":


    har!
    Not sure what "Har" means. Is that a yes or no?

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    Re: X1D 4116 first impressions

    A quick up date on my testing using off camera Nikon flash with the X1D. A previously posted I started by using my Elinchrom Skyport HS+ with Elinchrom strobes in my studio. There were no compatibility issues at all. Check the box on occasional studio use. Based on the Skyport success, I was very optimistic that something as simple as the Nikon SU800 IR trigger would work just fine in the X1D hotshoe. That turned out not to be the case. The remote flash would not fire in either TTL or Manual mode when using the SU800 on the X1D. Next up was using a

    Nikon SB910 flash in "master" mode to fire the remote flash. Again no luck, the remote flash would not respond. This is still puzzling to me. In my mind, it should work. So on to test 3. I tried a set of Nikon compatible pocket wizards. They worked without any issues. So for now I have a solution using off camera flash. The pocket wizards are even an advantage due to radio vs. IR. However, it is extra gear to carry and I need to order more receivers. But having at least one way to get Nikon flash off the X1D was the most important thing and I have that with the pocket wizards.

    My next test is to order the Vello IR trigger for Nikon. I'm not expecting success, the Vello is fundamentally an SU800 clone, but who knows, it just might work.

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