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Read at Your Own Risk

Graham Mitchell

New member
Truth be told.
I think Reichmann,s view that rollei is on it,s way out, has some substance.
He didn't express it as an opinion, and he didn't use the term "on it's way out". That's the problem.

The Hy6 and Sinar are owned by Jenoptik which is actually looking quite healthy at the moment (unlike Kodak): http://www.pressebox.de/pressemeldungen/jenoptik-konzern/boxid-232922.html

In fact Jenoptik is probably the strongest parent compnay in the MFDB market at the moment.
 

Christopher

Active member
Well I tested a new 45 two days ago and can only say, it is a LOT sharper than the old version and ten time sharper than my 35. It is also known, that only in the US some bad copies were delivered.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I want that new 45mm and I hope it is a lot better now. On release some here in the states did not do well. Maybe time for me to sell my 35 and 55 mm than

BTW folks I did test my 28mm on the P65 and yes there was some fall off in the corners . I would maybe treat it as a 30mm. But instead of telling you guys stuff , I show you. And no my 28mm is not for sale. My P25plus is though, need a P30 plus. Need the speed of it. But here is the P65 with a variety of glass.http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4333
 

yaya

Active member
Where did you see a statement from Leaf that it will "ensure" that Hy6/AFI production will continue? The only published report I have seen from Leaf is in the online version of BJP. Unless Leaf has the legal and financial wherewithal to take over production, two big question marks, I do not see how it is possible for Leaf to guaranty anything.
Enough said by me about this unfortunate turn of events. I have no dog in this hunt.
That part of the review has now been amended

Yair
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Well I tested a new 45 two days ago and can only say, it is a LOT sharper than the old version and ten time sharper than my 35. It is also known, that only in the US some bad copies were delivered.
Awesome news! Can you please post a 1200x1200 pixel, 100% corner crop here -- say f8 -- so I can see how much better it is than the one I tested?

Thanks!

Jack
 
H

Howard Cubell

Guest
That part of the review has now been amended

Yair

Can you quote the relevant passage. I still don't see any reference to Leaf "guaranteeing" the continued production of the Hy6/AFi.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Some added commentary FWIW:

Re the smoother color comment: Many of us have said for quite some time that the Dalsa chip shows smoother color. In our test of a pre-release P65+ it could definitely be noted, but to Guy's and my eyes it is a very subtle difference over the P45+ and perhaps a bit more over the P25+; like comparing the differences between Crystal and DP or Szechwan and Mandarin versions of Kung-Pao chicken, and to my palette not even as significant as the difference between Coke and Pepsi... Moreover, by adjusting the Color NR and/or the Clarity sliders in C1 we could pretty much make each file look like the other one, save for a more distinct difference in color response (profile).

Re the broader DR comment: We saw this in our comparison too, and it amounted to approximately 1/3rd stop more than the P45+ which was better than the P25+ by perhaps another 1/3rd stop. Ironically, when we adjusted the Clarity slider to get inter-pixel contrasts to match, the DR differences between these three backs disappeared to where they are for all intents and purposes, identical...

So while you can see these differences, they will likely only be noted by experienced digital file processors, possibly be noted by experienced viewers when comparing prints side-by-side, and probably not significant enough to be noted by 98% of the viewing public when not being compared side-by-side. And it is interesting to then balance the LL p45+/P65+ justification comments against the P345+/G10 real-world print difference comments made about two months ago...

Frankly -- and I step way out on a limb here -- I think the stated differences are subtleties used by folks to create enough of a threshold of additional benefits to seal the rationalization for making their purchase. Don't get me wrong here, the P65+ is a remarkable achievement, and is the pinnacle of DB development IMO, and represents the best of what's currently available and IMO that in and of itself should be enough rationalization.

Cheers,
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Agree with Jack. Our two eyes together when comparing the backs is dead on. Trust me. LOL

Okay back to shooting for me, on a gig.

The differences between all the Phase backs is there but not earth shattering . They all perform very well and we together have spent a lot of time with all of them. There all great and that is reality or I would never say this.
 

Dale Allyn

New member
It's encouraging to hear that the 45mm f/2.8 may be looking good after brooming out some dogs. The early reports were disappointing for sure. I'm hopeful the recent comments of sharp copies become the norm. It's a very useful focal length IMO.

My "old" 45mm is pretty good at mid apertures (where I use it), but there is a bit of fall-off on the left when opened up. Thankfully, it's not a lens I use at large apertures. Hopefully the new lens will have its wrinkles ironed out and be reminiscent of the 55mm or better optically.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
So we have some relative perspective on my 45DAF comments, here are some corner crops from the 45 and my older 35AF. Both taken at ISO 200 and f8, processed in C1 with lens adjustments ON and my basic sharpening on, output to 16-bit tiffs, then to CS4 for the corner crop and jpegging, no other processing or sharpening added. And to be very clear, YES the 45 is focused properly -- this is as good as it got:

The 45:


The 35:



... And so now you know why I returned the 45's and kept my 35 ;)

Cheers,
 

Dale Allyn

New member
Yup, I would've too. Your 35 is probably better than my 35 in corners, though I've tried not to pixel-peep it too hard so I'd not go nuts. ;) My initial shots of my garage door, with everything squared up and parallel (physically measured, etc.) left me feeling a bit bland about the lens. The barrel distortion was rather pronounced in that circumstance as well. But then using it in the field (with what little time I've had these past many months) I find that it performs well in the way that I really shoot.

Still, your 35mm looks like one to hold on to.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Well,

after digging a bit more into these reports, the Phase Website etc and talking a lot with my Hasselblad representative I cam again to the conclusion that for me the H System is the clear preference!

Following reasons:

1) The 60MP back for H System will come in summer 2009 and uses the same sensor and you can also fully use the H 28 lens with crop 1.0

2) Also Pahse One is misleading all users, because they speak of Crop 1.0, which is NOT true, because 645 format is still bigger

3) Further I find the Phase product names like P65+ or P45+ etc VERY misleading, because we are talking for example only about 60.5;P or 39MP. Why trying to fool the customer?

4) The camera and the lenses are all Mamiya, no own development - not bad, but this is not the level which Hasselblad can achieve.

5) The P backs require separate battery from the camera, which is absolutely nonsens. Turn on the cam, shoot and - ohje no photo, because the back was turned off :mad:

6) Phase somewhere state that hey are currently developing a new cam together with their partner, but this is the exercise which Hasselblad already took years ago when developing the H System

7) The lens lineup for the P system is not what I really like - but this is maybe my subjective view.

Nevertheless the P65+ back seems to be a great tool, especially for those who are willing to live with all the other issues.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Well,
2) Also Pahse One is misleading all users, because they speak of Crop 1.0, which is NOT true, because 645 format is still bigger
Rounded to two sig figs from the film gate of the Mamiya 645 the figure is 1.0. The viewfinder in the 645 is very nearly, but not technically, 100.000% coverage. The extremely small difference between the mamiya viewfinder and mamiya film gate is nearly identical in proportion to the size of the sensor versus the film gate. A la "100% viewfinder coverage", or more plainly, what-you-see[without mask] is what you get. I don't think this is misleading. For any possible PRACTICAL use it is 1.0 crop. For those who are interested in technical minutia it is clearly stated on nearly every P65+ document (printed or online) what the sensor size is.

3) Further I find the Phase product names like P65+ or P45+ etc VERY misleading, because we are talking for example only about 60.5;P or 39MP. Why trying to fool the customer?
Apparently we're also trying to downplay the P30+ which is in fact 31.6MP. The resolution is very plainly stated just about anywhere technical info on the backs appear. I do agree that it would be slightly more transparent to use the exact resolution as a product name, but they seem to like using 5s with the larger size sensors and 0s or 1s with the smaller sensors. so a P20, 21, and 30 is small sensor, and 25, 45, 65 is larger sensor.

4) The camera and the lenses are all Mamiya, no own development - not bad, but this is not the level which Hasselblad can achieve.
The two teams have worked closely on required specs, firmware, and future development paths (prioritizing possible features for instance). You are right that it is not the same level of integration as Hasselblad developing their own body, but it is also not the same level of closed-ness.


5) The P backs require separate battery from the camera, which is absolutely nonsens. Turn on the cam, shoot and - ohje no photo, because the back was turned off :mad:
Yep, it's annoying. It's a compromise though as many users like to use technical or view cameras which have no electronics. If you place the battery on the body then you need an external power source which is even more annoying than having to push a button once upon boot-up (at least IMO).


7) The lens lineup for the P system is not what I really like - but this is maybe my subjective view.
The lens lineup for the P system is any and all lenses from the Mamiya, Contax, Hasselblad V, Pentax, RZ, Rollei 6008 lines, as well as all but the 28mm lens (and future D lenses) from the Hasselblad H line. The only lens line we are lacking is the modern AF Hy6 glass. Then in the technical/view camera world you have any and all large format lenses, most notably the digital lines from Rodenstock and Schneider. That's the benefit of an open platform approach.

Edit: Reading again you may have meant you do not like the lens lineup on the Phase One 645 (e.g. Mamiya) system. I think it's pretty great (has strong spots and weak spots), but of course it is a matter of preference, and of note on the Mamiya body you can use any 200 or 500 series Hasselblad lens or Pentax lens.

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Head of Technical Services
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Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Yup, I would've too. Your 35 is probably better than my 35 in corners, though I've tried not to pixel-peep it too hard so I'd not go nuts. ;) My initial shots of my garage door, with everything squared up and parallel (physically measured, etc.) left me feeling a bit bland about the lens. The barrel distortion was rather pronounced in that circumstance as well. But then using it in the field (with what little time I've had these past many months) I find that it performs well in the way that I really shoot.

Still, your 35mm looks like one to hold on to.
Hi Dale:

Note that by using the C1 built-in lens correction settings, barrel distortion, fall-off, CA and purple fringing are all automatically corrected for!

:thumbs:,
 

Dale Allyn

New member
Jack, yes, it is a great tool for that. It works well. I'm pretty happy with my 35mm, though wides seem to always leave me wanting a bit more if I look too closely. ;)

Re. my copy of the 45mm: I wish that the lower-left corner was as sharp as the right side (which is surprisingly good). Still, for the price it works well. For the price of the new "D" version it needs to perform really well to get me to spring for it.

Without focus stacking, shallow DoF can bite me as often as funky corners. And since I hate cropping or focus stacking I have my own issues to deal with. :D
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
5) The P backs require separate battery from the camera, which is absolutely nonsens. Turn on the cam, shoot and - ohje no photo, because the back was turned off :mad:

Peter:

If you attempt to shoot with the Phase One camera without the digital back turned on, the shutter will not release and you will see an "error db" code in the camera LED screen.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
 

yaya

Active member
The Mamiya doesn't fire without a back on it that is powered - film or digital. With film you get -no fb- message and if the back is on the camera and loaded, it is powered by the camera's AA batteries...
 

fotografz

Well-known member
He didn't express it as an opinion, and he didn't use the term "on it's way out". That's the problem.

The Hy6 and Sinar are owned by Jenoptik which is actually looking quite healthy at the moment (unlike Kodak): http://www.pressebox.de/pressemeldungen/jenoptik-konzern/boxid-232922.html

In fact Jenoptik is probably the strongest parent compnay in the MFDB market at the moment.
"Unlike Kodak" .... isn't that the same kind of smear? You didn't offer proof the Kodak isn't doing well, but expect other's to do so when expressing their opinion. Double standard ????
 
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