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Thread: Read at Your Own Risk

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    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Read at Your Own Risk


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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Michael has no place writing the following (it amounts to libel), and I told him as much already:

    "Many of the grand names of the medium format camera industry have gone by the wayside during recent years, including Bronica, Contax, and most recently Rolleiflex / Hy6."

    He is well known for his pro Phase One bias, but he has also attacked the Hy6 a few times. His behaviour undermines the value of the review of this back which is probably very good.

  3. #3
    Howard Cubell
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Truth is a defense to a libel action. Perhaps Michael knows quite a bit more than is on the public record. I don't know, but he is NOT an irresponsible or reckless guy.

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    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    It was just a link to a review. I suspect as well that Reichmann's statement, while it might upset some, is not the sort of false statement of fact that would support a libel claim. After all, what does "gone by the wayside" mean?

    Of course, I could be wrong; I'm not a photographer.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Cubell View Post
    Truth is a defense to a libel action. Perhaps Michael knows quite a bit more than is on the public record. I don't know, but he is NOT an irresponsible or reckless guy.
    He can't know anything because the insolvency/debt restructuring process has a while to go yet. Besides, Leaf already stated they will ensure that production of the Hy6/AFi will continue. So to imply that the Hy6/AFi is already dead IS a plain lie, and amounts to libel. I already communicated with someone at Leaf who agreed it was libel and told me he would ask Michael to remove it.

    Michael also once reported that Sinar was out of the digital back business, and was forced to remove the statement later. I think that was around Photokina time last year.

    So actually he IS irresponsible and reckless and clearly has an agenda. I've lost any respect that I had...

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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Funny folks mention this. I had read the "review" earlier today, and also had one of those "WTF" moments when I came across that line. Seems like he wants to bury it while still alive. This is quite irresponsible, as it does not help anybody thinking about MF alternatives and maybe not informed of all the strange and sometimes incestuous dealings behind the scenes. Besides that, nothing much in that "review" that has not been discussed with much greater depth and examples elsewhere. I was going to wait to read his next installment about the Sensor+ stuff, but honestly, I was hoping somebody on this forum gets the drop and does a more useful job. Sorry, Michael, your stuff ain't as interesting and useful as it maybe once was.

    LJ

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    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    So if he removes the libel, can we read the review, or not?

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Funny folks mention this. I had read the "review" earlier today, and also had one of those "WTF" moments when I came across that line. Seems like he wants to bury it while still alive. This is quite irresponsible, as it does not help anybody thinking about MF alternatives and maybe not informed of all the strange and sometimes incestuous dealings behind the scenes. Besides that, nothing much in that "review" that has not been discussed with much greater depth and examples elsewhere. I was going to wait to read his next installment about the Sensor+ stuff, but honestly, I was hoping somebody on this forum gets the drop and does a more useful job. Sorry, Michael, your stuff ain't as interesting and useful as it maybe once was.

    LJ
    I generally think he's high grade but his lens review seemed not to chime with my perception of my batch of the facts... like I really don't see the 28D as having edge sharpness. And there are other reports here in particular of the Mammy/Phase 45 (I don't have one) that are less spectacular than his.

    Sample variation, probably. I don't for one second think he takes the King's Shilling. But I do think that like the rest of us he gets excited.

    t

  9. #9
    DougDolde
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Graham, I can't stand Reichmann either.

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I generally think he's high grade but his lens review seemed not to chime with my perception of my batch of the facts... like I really don't see the 28D as having edge sharpness. And there are other reports here in particular of the Mammy/Phase 45 (I don't have one) that are less spectacular than his.

    Sample variation, probably. I don't for one second think he takes the King's Shilling. But I do think that like the rest of us he gets excited.

    t
    I have yet to see a 28mm (non Digitar-type) lens that I would say has "edge sharpness", and that includes all the usual suspects.

    What I would say is that they have acceptable sharpness, given their limitations.


    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One

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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I generally think he's high grade but his lens review seemed not to chime with my perception of my batch of the facts... like I really don't see the 28D as having edge sharpness. And there are other reports here in particular of the Mammy/Phase 45 (I don't have one) that are less spectacular than his.

    Sample variation, probably. I don't for one second think he takes the King's Shilling. But I do think that like the rest of us he gets excited.

    t
    Even in Canada, it would still be the "Queen's Shilling" at this point (Just injecting some added humor, so nobody needs to get twisted off on this one, O.K.?)

    I have read his stuff for years. I respect his candor on lots of things. I understand the changes in how he is doing things lately. No problem with excitement. That still does not get past some of the things that he so emphatically states while other folks have shared very contrary opinions....AND shown clear examples. The 28D lens I think falls squarely in that area.

    Not looking to pick on MR. Like the rest of us, he takes his pants off one leg at a time also. But he knows his exposure carries a lot of weight with lots of readers, so it just seems like he does have the added responsibility to make sure things said are not incorrect, nor muddying waters. If he knows for a fact that Hy6 is dead, lay out the proof. It is NOT, and therefore saying it is falls into the irresponsible category in my book. That starts to tarnish other things, in my mind, and makes me wonder if I really can believe what I am reading at times. Not all of us have the luxury of being able to afford to buy new stuff like he and some others can. Great for them. However, if he, and others, then turns around and says things that may be surprising to folks, especially to those that may know what things are about, he should get called out on it, and it helps the rest of us keep things on a more credible and informative path. I still enjoy a lot of what he presents on his site, but his reviews of late, and some of the off-hand comments and proclamations seem a bit of stretch at times. There. I said it. So now folks can flame me over my opinion of his opinions and questionable "facts".

    LJ

  12. #12
    Howard Cubell
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    He can't know anything because the insolvency/debt restructuring process has a while to go yet. Besides, Leaf already stated they will ensure that production of the Hy6/AFi will continue.
    Where did you see a statement from Leaf that it will "ensure" that Hy6/AFI production will continue? The only published report I have seen from Leaf is in the online version of BJP. Unless Leaf has the legal and financial wherewithal to take over production, two big question marks, I do not see how it is possible for Leaf to guaranty anything.
    Enough said by me about this unfortunate turn of events. I have no dog in this hunt.
    As for the LL review of the P65+, I also found it wanting. However, I just think it reflects the rather marginal improvements in IQ that the P65+ appears to provide compared to his P45+. Remeber the piece he did about a blind comparison between Canon G10 prints and P45 prints, and the difficulty of telling them apart in print? What does that say about comparing P45 with P65 prints? I would like to think that, after 4 years of additional R&D, Phase would have been able to achieve more. I look forward to Hasselblad's effort with a new 60mp chip so I can look for myself. Perhaps I will be seriously surprised. If so, it will be a VERY costly exercise.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Cubell View Post
    Where did you see a statement from Leaf that it will "ensure" that Hy6/AFI production will continue?
    It was reported indirectly here:
    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...dpost&p=265339

    "I was informed today by Steve Goldsmith of Calumet that they just received a memo from Leaf stating that Leaf USA is going to pick up production of AFi bodies."

    My wording was a little different but the basic idea is the same.

  14. #14
    Howard Cubell
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    He can't know anything because the insolvency/debt restructuring process has a while to go yet. Besides, Leaf already stated they will ensure that production of the Hy6/AFi will continue.
    Where did you see a statement from Leaf that it will "ensure" that Hy6/AFI production will continue? The only published report I have seen from Leaf is in the online version of BJP. Unless Leaf has the legal and financial wherewithal to take over production, two big question marks, I do not see how it is possible for Leaf to guaranty anything.
    Enough said by me about this unfortunate turn of events. I have no dog in this hunt.
    As for the LL review of the P65+, I also found it wanting. However, I just think it reflects the rather marginal improvements in IQ that the P65+ appears to provide compared to his P45+. Remeber the piece he did about a blind comparison between Canon G10 prints and P45 prints, and the difficulty of telling them apart in print? What does that say about comparing P45 with P65 prints? I would like to think that, after 4 years of additional R&D, Phase would have been able to achieve more. I look forward to Hasselblad's effort with a new 60mp chip so I can look for myself. Perhaps I will be seriously surprised. If so, it will be a VERY costly exercise.

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    Super Duper
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Cubell View Post
    Truth is a defense to a libel action. Perhaps Michael knows quite a bit more than is on the public record. I don't know, but he is NOT an irresponsible or reckless guy.
    I highly doubt he that he knows a bit more. I would rather say he writes a bit more than he knows (regarding the Hy6).
    I dont think it is good for the industry to spread negative speculations. In the end I personally believe that speculations like this has been a determing factor of the economic crysis.
    As soon as the financial system got a problem the TV and newspapers etc. talked things worse than they were, mostly spreaded only the worst case scenarios, which made people and busines even more carefull and only made the situation worse than it allready was. Just my opinion.

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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    The guy is entitled to his opinion ... and if some one gullibly reads any of it as absolute fact, without far deeper research, or getting some first hand knowledge under his/her belt, then that person deserves whatever happens as a result. I'm sure Hy6 readers are bristling at his implications. But obviously, it's his take on it all ... which, without documented proof, is just conjecture based on existing sparce information.

    Actually, the only phrase that REALLY caught my eye was "$45,000." ... so whatever else he had to say was irrelevant. Fun to read maybe, but no bearing on me or my life what-so-ever ... including all the wordy justification stuff about "cost verses value". Even if I had upwards of $50K earmarked for digital upgrades, I just couldn't hack it with other nearly as good solutions coming in at 1/2 that amount. IMO it's the D3x syndrome, again.

    Just my opinion.

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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    I agree that everbody is entitled to his opinion,
    I just feel that an opinion should not sound like it was facts.
    IMO if somebody spreads information and opinion in public, no matter if it is through a newspaper, TV, or a website - this means a certain responsibility IMO. Talking about something like it was dead, specially if a company is in a difficult situation, doesnt help at all.
    I am not saying this because I am a Hy6 owner, but because I feel this behaviour is one of the reasons that the economic crisis came so fast and strong. We do not need to talk things worse than they allready are.
    I had no problem if he had said that F&H is going through insolvency, or if he said that it is not yet clear how the future of the Hy6 will look like or even if he said it is not clear if the Hy6-system has a future.

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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    I don't know... I normally enjoy Michael Reichmann's reviews, and simply take them for what they are, one guy's opinion, and not terribly deep, but something about this one doesn't sit right with me. Apart from the jab at F&H which I felt was a really needless and gruesome move, there are all kinds of little glitches, misunderstandings, typos, wrong word usage, and other errors in this article, and his usual stab at humour was somehow absent in this one. He really appears to have two sets of glasses, the rose-coloured ones and the sh*t-coloured ones, and he praises or smears as he sees fit, while attempting to make it all sound somewhat unbiased...

    I don't know exactly what went wrong this time, but this was not his finest hour, quite the opposite.

    I also think that he comes out sounding too positive about the back, given how little is improved and the massive price differential. 24% more linear resolution, 1/2 stop more DR, a couple of minor annoyances fixed compared to the older backs, no more 1-hour exposures, this does not add up to a $40.000 purchase order, IMO. For wealthy individual like Reichmann, or pros who print large, the balance might make for a cautious 'yes', but the kind of flowers that he bestows on the back seem a little out of proportion.
    Last edited by carstenw; 13th March 2009 at 01:53.
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix/Phase One View Post
    I have yet to see a 28mm (non Digitar-type) lens that I would say has "edge sharpness", and that includes all the usual suspects.

    What I would say is that they have acceptable sharpness, given their limitations.


    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One
    I absolutely agree, 100% - but the reason people read reviews is either camera porn or because they are thinking of buying.

    Anyone who reads this LL review and does not know what we all here know as commonplace (i.e. the inherent limitations of these MF systems) might make the reasonable assumption that since their best 35mm SLR glass is sharp corner to corner, then the best MF glass will compete. If they then read the following, they would have no reason to expect anything other than great corner performance on the 28D:

    "Image quality, as with all of these new lenses, is very high. I had been concerned that a retrofocus lens design this wide would lead to fall-off, vignetting and soft corners, but that it not the case.'

    Lord knows what the corners on a 28D really look like on the P65+ with its 'full frame' MF sensor but I would bet a fair amount that there are soft corners by most people's definitions, since we are all agreed that there are on the smaller P45+. The review also implies that the software corrections are partly responsible for these high performance levels however we all know that there are no corner sharpness corrections for the 28D in C1, short of Guy's method.

    Of the 45mm he says ' the lens is both fast and amazingly sharp'. Now I don't have this one, partly because of Jack's opinion here:

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showth...?t=4477&page=3

    So all I feel (and here I'm agreeing strongly with Carsten) is that this LL review is significantly more glowing than both my own experiences and those of others here...

    I'm sure his overall conclusion is correct: that short of a scanning back there's no finer IQ to be had. But some of the details seem rather rosily conveyed....
    Last edited by tashley; 13th March 2009 at 02:38.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The guy is entitled to his opinion ... and if some one gullibly reads any of it as absolute fact, without far deeper research, or getting some first hand knowledge under his/her belt, then that person deserves whatever happens as a result. .
    The victim is going to be Sinar and Leaf, not a 'gullible reader', and no-one is entitled to report false information as fact. There are laws against it.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by finepix View Post
    Truth be told.
    I think Reichmann,s view that rollei is on it,s way out, has some substance.
    He didn't express it as an opinion, and he didn't use the term "on it's way out". That's the problem.

    The Hy6 and Sinar are owned by Jenoptik which is actually looking quite healthy at the moment (unlike Kodak): http://www.pressebox.de/pressemeldun...id-232922.html

    In fact Jenoptik is probably the strongest parent compnay in the MFDB market at the moment.

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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Well I tested a new 45 two days ago and can only say, it is a LOT sharper than the old version and ten time sharper than my 35. It is also known, that only in the US some bad copies were delivered.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    I want that new 45mm and I hope it is a lot better now. On release some here in the states did not do well. Maybe time for me to sell my 35 and 55 mm than

    BTW folks I did test my 28mm on the P65 and yes there was some fall off in the corners . I would maybe treat it as a 30mm. But instead of telling you guys stuff , I show you. And no my 28mm is not for sale. My P25plus is though, need a P30 plus. Need the speed of it. But here is the P65 with a variety of glass.http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4333
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Cubell View Post
    Where did you see a statement from Leaf that it will "ensure" that Hy6/AFI production will continue? The only published report I have seen from Leaf is in the online version of BJP. Unless Leaf has the legal and financial wherewithal to take over production, two big question marks, I do not see how it is possible for Leaf to guaranty anything.
    Enough said by me about this unfortunate turn of events. I have no dog in this hunt.
    That part of the review has now been amended

    Yair
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Well I tested a new 45 two days ago and can only say, it is a LOT sharper than the old version and ten time sharper than my 35. It is also known, that only in the US some bad copies were delivered.
    Awesome news! Can you please post a 1200x1200 pixel, 100% corner crop here -- say f8 -- so I can see how much better it is than the one I tested?

    Thanks!

    Jack
    Jack
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  26. #26
    Howard Cubell
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    That part of the review has now been amended

    Yair

    Can you quote the relevant passage. I still don't see any reference to Leaf "guaranteeing" the continued production of the Hy6/AFi.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Some added commentary FWIW:

    Re the smoother color comment: Many of us have said for quite some time that the Dalsa chip shows smoother color. In our test of a pre-release P65+ it could definitely be noted, but to Guy's and my eyes it is a very subtle difference over the P45+ and perhaps a bit more over the P25+; like comparing the differences between Crystal and DP or Szechwan and Mandarin versions of Kung-Pao chicken, and to my palette not even as significant as the difference between Coke and Pepsi... Moreover, by adjusting the Color NR and/or the Clarity sliders in C1 we could pretty much make each file look like the other one, save for a more distinct difference in color response (profile).

    Re the broader DR comment: We saw this in our comparison too, and it amounted to approximately 1/3rd stop more than the P45+ which was better than the P25+ by perhaps another 1/3rd stop. Ironically, when we adjusted the Clarity slider to get inter-pixel contrasts to match, the DR differences between these three backs disappeared to where they are for all intents and purposes, identical...

    So while you can see these differences, they will likely only be noted by experienced digital file processors, possibly be noted by experienced viewers when comparing prints side-by-side, and probably not significant enough to be noted by 98% of the viewing public when not being compared side-by-side. And it is interesting to then balance the LL p45+/P65+ justification comments against the P345+/G10 real-world print difference comments made about two months ago...

    Frankly -- and I step way out on a limb here -- I think the stated differences are subtleties used by folks to create enough of a threshold of additional benefits to seal the rationalization for making their purchase. Don't get me wrong here, the P65+ is a remarkable achievement, and is the pinnacle of DB development IMO, and represents the best of what's currently available and IMO that in and of itself should be enough rationalization.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Agree with Jack. Our two eyes together when comparing the backs is dead on. Trust me. LOL

    Okay back to shooting for me, on a gig.

    The differences between all the Phase backs is there but not earth shattering . They all perform very well and we together have spent a lot of time with all of them. There all great and that is reality or I would never say this.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    It's encouraging to hear that the 45mm f/2.8 may be looking good after brooming out some dogs. The early reports were disappointing for sure. I'm hopeful the recent comments of sharp copies become the norm. It's a very useful focal length IMO.

    My "old" 45mm is pretty good at mid apertures (where I use it), but there is a bit of fall-off on the left when opened up. Thankfully, it's not a lens I use at large apertures. Hopefully the new lens will have its wrinkles ironed out and be reminiscent of the 55mm or better optically.

  30. #30
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Cubell View Post
    Can you quote the relevant passage. I still don't see any reference to Leaf "guaranteeing" the continued production of the Hy6/AFi.
    It's in bright bold yellow right under the front-view photo of the AFDIII
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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  31. #31
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    So we have some relative perspective on my 45DAF comments, here are some corner crops from the 45 and my older 35AF. Both taken at ISO 200 and f8, processed in C1 with lens adjustments ON and my basic sharpening on, output to 16-bit tiffs, then to CS4 for the corner crop and jpegging, no other processing or sharpening added. And to be very clear, YES the 45 is focused properly -- this is as good as it got:

    The 45:


    The 35:



    ... And so now you know why I returned the 45's and kept my 35

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Yup, I would've too. Your 35 is probably better than my 35 in corners, though I've tried not to pixel-peep it too hard so I'd not go nuts. My initial shots of my garage door, with everything squared up and parallel (physically measured, etc.) left me feeling a bit bland about the lens. The barrel distortion was rather pronounced in that circumstance as well. But then using it in the field (with what little time I've had these past many months) I find that it performs well in the way that I really shoot.

    Still, your 35mm looks like one to hold on to.

  33. #33
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Well,

    after digging a bit more into these reports, the Phase Website etc and talking a lot with my Hasselblad representative I cam again to the conclusion that for me the H System is the clear preference!

    Following reasons:

    1) The 60MP back for H System will come in summer 2009 and uses the same sensor and you can also fully use the H 28 lens with crop 1.0

    2) Also Pahse One is misleading all users, because they speak of Crop 1.0, which is NOT true, because 645 format is still bigger

    3) Further I find the Phase product names like P65+ or P45+ etc VERY misleading, because we are talking for example only about 60.5;P or 39MP. Why trying to fool the customer?

    4) The camera and the lenses are all Mamiya, no own development - not bad, but this is not the level which Hasselblad can achieve.

    5) The P backs require separate battery from the camera, which is absolutely nonsens. Turn on the cam, shoot and - ohje no photo, because the back was turned off

    6) Phase somewhere state that hey are currently developing a new cam together with their partner, but this is the exercise which Hasselblad already took years ago when developing the H System

    7) The lens lineup for the P system is not what I really like - but this is maybe my subjective view.

    Nevertheless the P65+ back seems to be a great tool, especially for those who are willing to live with all the other issues.

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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Well,
    2) Also Pahse One is misleading all users, because they speak of Crop 1.0, which is NOT true, because 645 format is still bigger
    Rounded to two sig figs from the film gate of the Mamiya 645 the figure is 1.0. The viewfinder in the 645 is very nearly, but not technically, 100.000% coverage. The extremely small difference between the mamiya viewfinder and mamiya film gate is nearly identical in proportion to the size of the sensor versus the film gate. A la "100% viewfinder coverage", or more plainly, what-you-see[without mask] is what you get. I don't think this is misleading. For any possible PRACTICAL use it is 1.0 crop. For those who are interested in technical minutia it is clearly stated on nearly every P65+ document (printed or online) what the sensor size is.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    3) Further I find the Phase product names like P65+ or P45+ etc VERY misleading, because we are talking for example only about 60.5;P or 39MP. Why trying to fool the customer?
    Apparently we're also trying to downplay the P30+ which is in fact 31.6MP. The resolution is very plainly stated just about anywhere technical info on the backs appear. I do agree that it would be slightly more transparent to use the exact resolution as a product name, but they seem to like using 5s with the larger size sensors and 0s or 1s with the smaller sensors. so a P20, 21, and 30 is small sensor, and 25, 45, 65 is larger sensor.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    4) The camera and the lenses are all Mamiya, no own development - not bad, but this is not the level which Hasselblad can achieve.
    The two teams have worked closely on required specs, firmware, and future development paths (prioritizing possible features for instance). You are right that it is not the same level of integration as Hasselblad developing their own body, but it is also not the same level of closed-ness.


    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    5) The P backs require separate battery from the camera, which is absolutely nonsens. Turn on the cam, shoot and - ohje no photo, because the back was turned off
    Yep, it's annoying. It's a compromise though as many users like to use technical or view cameras which have no electronics. If you place the battery on the body then you need an external power source which is even more annoying than having to push a button once upon boot-up (at least IMO).


    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    7) The lens lineup for the P system is not what I really like - but this is maybe my subjective view.
    The lens lineup for the P system is any and all lenses from the Mamiya, Contax, Hasselblad V, Pentax, RZ, Rollei 6008 lines, as well as all but the 28mm lens (and future D lenses) from the Hasselblad H line. The only lens line we are lacking is the modern AF Hy6 glass. Then in the technical/view camera world you have any and all large format lenses, most notably the digital lines from Rodenstock and Schneider. That's the benefit of an open platform approach.

    Edit: Reading again you may have meant you do not like the lens lineup on the Phase One 645 (e.g. Mamiya) system. I think it's pretty great (has strong spots and weak spots), but of course it is a matter of preference, and of note on the Mamiya body you can use any 200 or 500 series Hasselblad lens or Pentax lens.

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    Last edited by dougpeterson; 13th March 2009 at 10:36.

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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    Yup, I would've too. Your 35 is probably better than my 35 in corners, though I've tried not to pixel-peep it too hard so I'd not go nuts. My initial shots of my garage door, with everything squared up and parallel (physically measured, etc.) left me feeling a bit bland about the lens. The barrel distortion was rather pronounced in that circumstance as well. But then using it in the field (with what little time I've had these past many months) I find that it performs well in the way that I really shoot.

    Still, your 35mm looks like one to hold on to.
    Hi Dale:

    Note that by using the C1 built-in lens correction settings, barrel distortion, fall-off, CA and purple fringing are all automatically corrected for!

    ,
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Jack, yes, it is a great tool for that. It works well. I'm pretty happy with my 35mm, though wides seem to always leave me wanting a bit more if I look too closely.

    Re. my copy of the 45mm: I wish that the lower-left corner was as sharp as the right side (which is surprisingly good). Still, for the price it works well. For the price of the new "D" version it needs to perform really well to get me to spring for it.

    Without focus stacking, shallow DoF can bite me as often as funky corners. And since I hate cropping or focus stacking I have my own issues to deal with.

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    5) The P backs require separate battery from the camera, which is absolutely nonsens. Turn on the cam, shoot and - ohje no photo, because the back was turned off

    Peter:

    If you attempt to shoot with the Phase One camera without the digital back turned on, the shutter will not release and you will see an "error db" code in the camera LED screen.


    Steve Hendrix
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    The Mamiya doesn't fire without a back on it that is powered - film or digital. With film you get -no fb- message and if the back is on the camera and loaded, it is powered by the camera's AA batteries...
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    He didn't express it as an opinion, and he didn't use the term "on it's way out". That's the problem.

    The Hy6 and Sinar are owned by Jenoptik which is actually looking quite healthy at the moment (unlike Kodak): http://www.pressebox.de/pressemeldun...id-232922.html

    In fact Jenoptik is probably the strongest parent compnay in the MFDB market at the moment.
    "Unlike Kodak" .... isn't that the same kind of smear? You didn't offer proof the Kodak isn't doing well, but expect other's to do so when expressing their opinion. Double standard ????

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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Nah, Kodak is not healthy I saw an article a couple of days ago. I could try to dig it up...
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    "Unlike Kodak" .... isn't that the same kind of smear? You didn't offer proof the Kodak isn't doing well, but expect other's to do so when expressing their opinion. Double standard ????
    Jeeez, I wish you would do a little research sometimes before posting... Kodak's troubles are public knowledge.

    see http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/04/news...source=reuters

  42. #42
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    It seems that Michael has published something of a retraction in the article now concerning the false report: "I mentioned the Hy6 camera above as being among those that is no more. Well, it appears that word of its demise may be a bit premature. At the request of Leaf I am including immediately below the most current situation update...."

    'May be a bit premature'? That's right Michael, don't miss a chance to imply that the worst possible scenario is inevitable. What a you-know-what.

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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Graham you have a issue with Michael please take it to his place. I just think it is not fair to the members here about someone else that is not a member here to defend himself on this forum. Thanks I would appreciate this
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Graham:

    I almost deleted your post above as to my mind it crosses the line. But I feel Guy has taken the better approach, so I just want to reiterate and support his comments so everybody is very clear that neither of us condone disparaging personal remarks on this forum.
    Jack
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Thanks Doug and Steve for your clarifications on the Phase system. And I can only say again - this is great open discussion here!

    I have some more questions:

    1) If you can use all the other lenses like the Contax lenses for example, does it mean that AF is supported as well?

    2) I somewhere found the information, that Phase and Mamiya are currently working on a new camera, which shall provide more communication between back and camera. Is this true and if yes when will this be expected?

    As I am going to buy into a complete new system with currently no MF gear in my bag I am pretty open and just want to make sure that I am getting the most open and future proof solution for me. Once I am in I am caught and a move to another system would be too expensive for me then.

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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Jeeez, I wish you would do a little research sometimes before posting... Kodak's troubles are public knowledge.

    see http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/04/news...source=reuters
    Sorry, but your implication in the context of this specific discussion is that Kodak (who makes sensors for Hasselblad and Phase One) is failing ... they are NOT filing for insolvency or bankruptcy ... if you read the article you provided, Kodak clearly states that despite the severe impact of the recession on consumer photographic products ... "the company's balance sheet is solid." And as I read it, they are seeking various diversified ways to weather the storm faced by most every company on the planet.

    IMO, your comments are no different than MRs, just from a different bias. F&Hs troubles are also a matter of public record ... and you make the assumption that some white knight will ride to their rescue when you have zero knowledge of that as being even close to a fact.

    It's probably best to let this all go now ... and IMO you should e-mail your feelings to MR directly since he's not here to defend his position.

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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Peter you do lose AF and also auto aperture . You will have to work in stop down mode. I am pretty sure this is with all lenses outside of Mamiya. Plus all the lenses that do work C1 has corrections for them and your Phase back . So you can control CA, Purple fringing and several other options. This is a nice feature. Doug and Steve can enlighten you more on this. As far as a new body or updates not sure Steve can confirm or deny this. But obviously it is needed to update a outdated film body. Personally I have no doubts this will come about just a matter of when.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post

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    Doug,

    I sometimes wonder how much units of these high-end digi backs like P65 or from Hasselblad are planned to be sold/manufactured (sales over product lifecycle).
    Now I see that someone working in this industry is participating in this forum and would like to ask you.

    Of course, I don't want to hear detailed confidential data but would like to get a feeling for an order of magnitude.

    Is it more 200 units, 1000 or 2000 per product for example. The size of the market, e.g. units per year from Phase, Hasselblad and the others in one number could be an answer as well.

    Thanks.

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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Peter you do lose AF and also auto aperture . You will have to work in stop down mode. I am pretty sure this is with all lenses outside of Mamiya. Plus all the lenses that do work C1 has corrections for them and your Phase back . So you can control CA, Purple fringing and several other options. This is a nice feature. Doug and Steve can enlighten you more on this. As far as a new body or updates not sure Steve can confirm or deny this. But obviously it is needed to update a outdated film body. Personally I have no doubts this will come about just a matter of when.
    Aha,

    this is what I feared (thought) Thanks!

    So this kind of openness in using old and third party glass is no argument for me anyway, as I will buy into a new system and stay within that system. I know I will then be inside a kind of closed system in any case if I want to have all benefits like AF, no stop down mode, corrections in SW etc. This is then the same for Phase and Hasselblad and S2.

    Which is perfectly fine for me, since I do not have any more old glass (have sold all my MF analog stuff some years ago) and can now happily jump into a new system (adventure)

    Issues for me are more if:

    1) this new system (the vendor) has a clear future strategy (and does not disappear from the market in some years which I personally fear about Leica's S System after their recent history in digital)

    2) the current available line up in lenses (all new designs, fully functional with all features)

    3) plans for the future - new backs, bodies etc. - in case of the S2 if (and then) there will be a S3 with eg. 50MP

  50. #50
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Read at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Sorry, but your implication in the context of this specific discussion is that Kodak (who makes sensors for Hasselblad and Phase One) is failing ... they are NOT filing for insolvency or bankruptcy ...
    I never said they were.

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