IQ3 vs IQ2 vs mid life crisis

[Erik Lundqvist]

What's the difference between the IQ3 and IQ2 digital backs from Phase One? From my own research I have only found that there is no power sharing between new XF body and IQ2 backs, but other than that most features seemed to be available as a firmware update.

Anyone know of any other differences?

Like Tim I have now pretty much given up on the X1D, and I am looking towards the GFX mainly, but I am curious about a larger medium format sensor. The IQ3 DBs are out of my budget, but the IQ2 60mp seems to be within my tolerance levels. The IQ2 also allows for up to 60 minute exposures which is great as I quite often find myself around 4 minutes for my work.

The plan so far is
XF Body + IQ2 60mp
150 LS blue ring
120 macro FPS AF
35 FPS or something even wider
maybe a 80 as well

Not had the courage to sum up the total yet.

Anyway, this would have to last me a lifetime, but should work for portraits, still life and whatever landscape and architecture I do.

Pros, cons any other feedback would be greatly appreciated.

 

[voidshatter]

but the IQ2 60mp seems to be within my tolerance levels. The IQ2 also allows for up to 60 minute exposures which is great as I quite often find myself around 4 minutes for my work.

You will most likely regret this when you compare the end result against a $1000 Nikon D800E. Been there, done that.

If you really want to do 4 min long exposure, get yourself a Sony CMOS sensor (100MP, 50MP, D800E, A7R etc), and forget about the CCDs. If you want to do longer than 4 min, also forget about the 100MP.

 

[voidshatter]

Anyway, this would have to last me a lifetime,

No digital camera can last you a lifetime yet. When the 35mm format advances towards 70MP, you can expect the pricing of these 60MP digital backs to fall like what the older backs did when the Canon 5DSR/Nikon D800E was announced. It's electronic devices after all. It's just the same as how an iPhone cannot last for more than a couple of years before getting recycled. This year you cannot even surf the internet freely with an old computer running Windows 98. Be prepared to bear the depreciation in your hand, and also ready your wallet/bank accounts for the future updates. The pace of depreciation of medium format digital is not for everyone - only the wealthy ones can keep themselves in the game.

 

[TimG]

It's electronic devices after all. It's just the same as how an iPhone cannot last for more than a couple of years before getting recycled. This year you cannot even surf the internet freely with an old computer running Windows 98.

This is nonsense,

Comparing computers to cameras is totally facile, computers become obsolete because they no longer work in a more complex and demanding environment, however a camera from the 1950s will still capture a great image in the right hands, and will continue to do so in 2050.

There are people out there with 5D Mk1's and polaroids, who aside from physical image-size, will blow away anything you ever took with the latest kit, it's nonsense to suggest that any camera you buy now will be useless in a few years time, total nonsense.

 

[voidshatter]

This is nonsense,

Comparing computers to cameras is totally facile, computers become obsolete because they no longer work in a more complex and demanding environment, however a camera from the 1950s will still capture a great image in the right hands, and will continue to do so in 2050.

There are people out there with 5D Mk1's and polaroids, who aside from physical image-size, will blow away anything you ever took with the latest kit, it's nonsense to suggest that any camera you buy now will be useless in a few years time, total nonsense.

These technology advancements are real.

It's said that Bill Gates said something like "640K RAM ought to be enough for anyone." In year 2017, even with 8GB RAM a PC can lag from time to time surfing the internet with lots of tabs opened with AdBlock plugins.

A Leaf DCB II Live (year 1996) has 4MP resolution, but easily gets beaten down by an iPhone in year 2017.

Digital backs are electronic devices and are therefore subject to depreciation in a Moore's law-style. It's a bit different from cars - you can still drive old skool muscle cars, but you can no longer surf the internet freely with an old computer running Windows 98.

An iPhone 7 Plus has a screen with a resolution of 1920 × 1080. An Eizo CG318-4k has a resolution of 4096 x 2160. News says that Dell is going to ship a 8k monitor with a resolution of 7680 x 4320. These new displays ruthlessly make the images taken by a Canon 1Ds (11MP) look soft.

 

[tashley]

These technology advancements are real.

It's said that Bill Gates said something like "640K RAM ought to be enough for anyone." In year 2017, even with 8GB RAM a PC can lag from time to time surfing the internet with lots of tabs opened with AdBlock plugins.

A Leaf DCB II Live (year 1996) has 4MP resolution, but easily gets beaten down by an iPhone in year 2017.

Digital backs are electronic devices and are therefore subject to depreciation in a Moore's law-style. It's a bit different from cars - you can still drive old skool muscle cars, but you can no longer surf the internet freely with an old computer running Windows 98.

An iPhone 7 Plus has a screen with a resolution of 1920 × 1080. An Eizo CG318-4k has a resolution of 4096 x 2160. News says that Dell is going to ship a 8k monitor with a resolution of 7680 x 4320. These new displays ruthlessly make the images taken by a Canon 1Ds (11MP) look soft.

Oh Erik. What have I started. For more reasons than I can begin to state, listen to Nacy Reagan and Just Say No. please.

 

[voidshatter]

Anyway, even honest dealers admit depreciation of digital backs. Taken from Capture Integration:

Any product that you own has a depreciation scale. Any tool that you use in your business has a cost associated with it. But what is the real cost of owning the best equipment in the industry? Depending on your individual model, a digital back will depreciate anywhere from $300 to $500 a month. These are the real numbers. I have been in the digital capture industry since it began. And these are the hard real numbers that we have calculated for years. When I hear the complaints about how expensive a medium format system is I do understand them. However, if you run a business an operating expense of $300 a month for your main capture device is minimal and the return on this investment will be substantial.

 

[Erik Lundqvist]

Guys. Although I appreciate you taking the time to answer I feel you are slightly off topic

Maybe it won't last a lifetime, but the Q2 will be a much cheaper entry point than the Q3 and I won't need more MPs. I won't even need 60, but I want 60

Can we focus on the differences between the Q2 and Q3?

 

[MGrayson]

Oh Erik. What have I started. For more reasons than I can begin to state, listen to Nacy Reagan and Just Say No. please.

Fortunately, we have another option. It was a sad day for me when I first had to use the Ignore feature on getDPI, but it is now a necessity to retain any enjoyment. If only it applied within quoted text...

--Matt

 

[tashley]

Fortunately, we have another option. It was a sad day for me when I first had to use the Ignore feature on getDPI, but it is now a necessity to retain any enjoyment. If only it applied within quoted text...

--Matt

Matt, you need to understand that I know Erik. We have spent two good evenings drinking together and I am quite well informed about a number of factors that helped shape my jokey response. I won't share them here because they are Erik's private business but I concur with whoever it was above who suggested that for his needs a D810 would be very much more useful. He and I also communicate extensively via text message and I will have this conversation with him offline.

 

[dchew]

Erik,
You may have already seen this, but Capture Integration still has specs on the 2 series up on their site:
https://captureintegration.com/phase-one-iq2/#260

I thought there used to be a more direct comparison somewhere but I can't find it. I suspect there have been some improvements in the reliability of wireless connection, but that is anecdotal from user reports and I have no direct experience to support that or not.

Dave

 

[Paul2660]

Hi Erik


I think you have it. The IQ380 will go to 1 hour, albeit at ISO200 as the base. The results I received from the IQ260 at 140 (it's base for LE) were never as good as my older P45+ and I quickly quit using it much past 5 min.

Based on the better wifi connectively I have seen with the IQ3100, I would be will to suppose that the IQ380 also has this. The wifi on the 260 was less than stellar. (at least on mine).

I believe with the feature update 3 most of the camera controls are now on available on the LCD of the back, IQ380.

Paul Caldwell

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Erik -

IQ260 and IQ360 both share the differences from IQ160 (Built-In WiFi and better Long Exposure past 2 minutes). As Paul mentions, the quality from a 30 minute exposure, for example, won't match a P45+. But I would still consider it usable and much better than an IQ160 at that same exposure. If frequent 30 minute exposures at optimal quality are a critical component of your photography, then an IQ260/IQ360 may not be the right solution for you.

Off the top of my head, I can't recall many other functional differences. I do know that initially the top LCD of the XF would not display Histogram or Virtual Horizon with an IQ2, nor would it provide Power Sharing with the XF (all of which are supported with IQ3+XF).

Notably, with the new Power Supply for the XF, the Power Sharing feature plays a more important role, since the XF Power Supply will power the entire system (XF Camera, IQ3 Digital Back) front to back.

https://www.digitalback.com/product/xf-power-supply/


There may be a few more things, but I can't think of any at the moment.


Good at least for a start, Erik.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[tashley]

Erik, I've been having a sniff around and what is interesting is that the IQ2 system isn't listed on Phase's website. I reviewed the 260 and the 260 Achromatic (with loaners from Phase) for OnLandscape magazine some time ago. The link is here https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2013/08/phase-one-iq260-and-iq260-achromatic-backs/ but it is subscription only. PM me and I might be able to dig up the original text of it but my conclusion was that I wouldn't switch from the 180.

So what's happened to the 260 on the Phase website? Even at teamwork, it's only available in non-xf fittings. Is it effectively discontinued? Hard to tell but the 'compare backs' data sheet on the P1 only mentions the Achromatic..... one last thing: the 260 is a CCD not a CMOS sensor.

 

[algrove]

Have no idea about the differences you request.

However, whatever system you get, make you can use ES as it's a game changer for many of us should you ever want/need to go long and even with the 150 it can make a difference. Also the 35LS in this regard is stellar.

P.S. Have you asked your dealer about trade-in values? I was totally surprised at the value they gave for the 645Z. PM if you are curious about that comment.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

I've been having a sniff around Erik and what is interesting is that the IQ2 system isn't listed on Phase's website. I reviewed the 260 and the 260 Achromatic (with loaners from Phase) for OnLandscape magazine some time ago. The link is here https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2013/08/phase-one-iq260-and-iq260-achromatic-backs/ but it is subscription only. PM me and I might be able to dig up the original text of it but my conclusion was that I wouldn't switch from the 180.

So what's happened to the 260 on the Phase website? Even at teamwork, it's only available in non-xf fittings. Is it effectively discontinued? Hard to tell but the 'compare backs' data sheet on the P1 only mentions the Achromatic..... one last thing: the 260 is a CCD not a CMOS sensor.

The IQ260 for Phase One XF was discontinued when the IQ360 was released, since the functionality was so similar. IQ260 in Hasselblad H, Hasselblad V, and Contax 645 continued to be available, since an IQ360 in those mounts would not have been any different, as the XF Camera was involved in most of the functional differences. Since then, the 40mp and 60mp sensors themselves are discontinued, so now there is no IQ260/OIQ360 product available for purchase new (some IQ260 Achromatic units are still available).


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[Erik Lundqvist]

Erik -

IQ260 and IQ360 both share the differences from IQ160 (Built-In WiFi and better Long Exposure past 2 minutes). As Paul mentions, the quality from a 30 minute exposure, for example, won't match a P45+. But I would still consider it usable and much better than an IQ160 at that same exposure. If frequent 30 minute exposures at optimal quality are a critical component of your photography, then an IQ260/IQ360 may not be the right solution for you.

Off the top of my head, I can't recall many other functional differences. I do know that initially the top LCD of the XF would not display Histogram or Virtual Horizon with an IQ2, nor would it provide Power Sharing with the XF (all of which are supported with IQ3+XF).

Notably, with the new Power Supply for the XF, the Power Sharing feature plays a more important role, since the XF Power Supply will power the entire system (XF Camera, IQ3 Digital Back) front to back.

https://www.digitalback.com/product/xf-power-supply/


There may be a few more things, but I can't think of any at the moment.


Good at least for a start, Erik.


Steve Hendrix/CI

Thank you Steve,

With my X-Pro2 I rarely do more than 8 minutes, with 2-4 minutes being the most frequent. I don't do LEs very often at all. 80% of what I do is portraits using flash and hand holding the camera; then it's still life from a tripod. I am hoping to do more landscape photography, I am even going on a workshop with Vieri, but not sure I'd take such a big camera with me.

I get a fair bit of noise even with my X-Pro2 with 4 minute exposures and it needs post processing. No idea ho this would compare with a Q2 60mp or even a Q3

Here is a 170s exposure, which I think is before I figured out noise reduction in LR. How much worse than that would it be at a similar time or even up to 30 minutes?
Tower Bridge by Erik Lundqvist, on Flickr

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Thank you Steve,

With my X-Pro2 I rarely do more than 8 minutes, with 2-4 minutes being the most frequent. I don't do LEs very often at all. 80% of what I do is portraits using flash and hand holding the camera; then it's still life from a tripod. I am hoping to do more landscape photography, I am even going on a workshop with Vieri, but not sure I'd take such a big camera with me.

I get a fair bit of noise even with my X-Pro2 with 4 minute exposures and it needs post processing. No idea ho this would compare with a Q2 60mp or even a Q3

Here is a 170s exposure, which I think is before I figured out noise reduction in LR. How much worse than that would it be at a similar time or even up to 30 minutes?
Tower Bridge by Erik Lundqvist, on Flickr

I don't have an X-Pro 2, so can't really compare.

In any event, the noise from an IQ260 and an IQ360 at say, 4 minutes, would be identical, and would also be identical at 30 minutes. They perform identically in that regard.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[mjr]

Erik

Everyone here will have their own preferences and ways of working so my opinion is only based on my own experiences so may not be relevant at all, that said.. I see the X1D and any Phase system as being entirely different, I personally couldn't see a situation where I had worked out everything I wanted a system to do and was left with a toss up between an X1D or an IQ260, they are just not the same tools for me. Going from a Fuji to an XF, back and a set of lenses is going to be a shock!

I bought a IQ260 for an architecture project with a tech cam, quickly bought an XF and absolutely loved it, for studio work with strobes, the output from the 260 is just amazing, I loved it and would buy another immediately if I needed to. I took it to Iceland, Lofoten and many other places and if you can deal with the bulk and weight, the XF is an excellent body but it isn't compact, lightweight or particularly convenient, results though, some of the best I have been able to muster from a camera with my skills. As has been said, the 360 has no difference image quality wise but battery sharing with the XF, I had no issues with the 260 on the XF.

I now have a Nikon D810 and a D500, there are some situations obviously where they are superb and in general, excellent cameras but I can say, hand on heart that I prefer the output from the 260 in almost every commercial situation I come across. If you shoot mainly at base ISO or use strobes then I find it amazing. If I want to shoot long exposures then I'd use the Nikon but I used the 260 for aurora shots and was happy with the results.

Ultimately, if it's for business then you need to understand what will make you money and what will do the jobs that you get and build a kit around those requirements, if it's just for personal use then get what you like!

Good luck

 

[MGrayson]

Matt, you need to understand that I know Erik. We have spent two good evenings drinking together and I am quite well informed about a number of factors that helped shape my jokey response. I won't share them here because they are Erik's private business but I concur with whoever it was above who suggested that for his needs a D810 would be very much more useful. He and I also communicate extensively via text message and I will have this conversation with him offline.

Tim,

I should have made it clear that I was not objecting to your advice in the slightest. My apologies,

Matt