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Thread: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    By far the sharpest images I got all week were taken on the Cambo setup mounted on the same tripod that gave me grief otherwise and in a 60mph gusting wind.... however the shutter speed was 1/250th, about the highest I shot all week and so I'm not sure what I can take from it. I'll try the CF gitzo tripod first, then add a cube if needs be...

    No wonder so few people exhibit large prints!
    The Cambo's mass sits more over the center of the pod relative to an MF SLR and therefore generates a much smaller angular load moment (and thus less vibrations) at the head...
    Jack
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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    ha! lets deconstruct that..( ie lets leave the differentials behind and do some nice old fashioned intergration)

    traditional MF cameras are lard arsed legacy systems designed to house big mirrors and film backs and to hang lard arsed bulky heavy lens deisgns off - hence the 'angular' movement leading to all sorts of exagerrated vibration. - simple physics ALWAYS working against you.

    sad but true.

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    ...although, the arTec is tall and flat, so in a bit of wind, it could easily vibrate as well. I look forward to seeing photos of and by it, if you decide to get one. It sounds like Sinar want very much for it to be a success, given that they made the tilt mechanism geared so soon after releasing it. I guess several photographers were concerned.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    ...although, the arTec is tall and flat, so in a bit of wind, it could easily vibrate as well. I look forward to seeing photos of and by it, if you decide to get one. It sounds like Sinar want very much for it to be a success, given that they made the tilt mechanism geared so soon after releasing it. I guess several photographers were concerned.
    I wanted one more than anything else I could find, even spoke to them about a Phase/Mammy 645 fitting and they sounded mildly pleased to hear that someone was interested but uncommitted as to whether they'd make it...

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    Re: I really am a nerd - I did a tripod/head test in detail

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Lordy is this ever a weak use of a Sunday but here goes:

    Geared On Manfrotto
    1/20th X
    1/40th X
    1/80th √
    1/125th √

    T
    Hi Tim,

    I read this with interest as I just made some tripod captures for the high ISO thread...

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showth...?t=6039&page=4

    The only tripod I had to hand was a Gitzo GT-530 (don't laugh!) which is their smallest and lightest travel tripod...

    http://www.gitzo.com/Jahia/site/gitz...Id=MARKET:MKT1

    With mirror lock up and the camera+tripod combo on top of an old washing machine, I had no issue getting 2.5 second exposure with no shake. I did of course have no problems with wind!

    Here you go...



    That's a 100% crop of this image...



    I guess our shutter is very unobtrusive.

    Best,


    David

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    ...although, the arTec is tall and flat, so in a bit of wind, it could easily vibrate as well. I look forward to seeing photos of and by it, if you decide to get one. It sounds like Sinar want very much for it to be a success, given that they made the tilt mechanism geared so soon after releasing it. I guess several photographers were concerned.


    Well Carsten - I agree with your observation regarding its 'sail' potential - one doesnt know until one tests in the conditions that will test so to speak. It is the connection between body and tripod that has me concerned.

    Firstly, the camera body is wide - and I want to see how well it balances on a tripod with Cube and ball type mounts - how well it slides between focusing mode and shooting mode, how secure and precise all this is ( really)

    Secondly, the arTec comes with its own inbuilt panning mechanism. This mechanism sits just above the point of tripod connection. It isnt large. If I want to shoot panoramas and include near as well as far subject matter - I will need to add a sliding device ala RRS.Novaflex etc in order to make sure I get the nodal point correct lined up. there are two issues here for me:

    1. Balance - how far out from center of tripod does the wide and sail like camera body have to go with lenses ranging from 23 to 100ish and will this introduce exactly the type of problems/issues one gets with MF camera bodies alluded to in this thread? and

    2. Why didnt Sinar envisage that landscape shooters and architectural shooters may like to shoot using nodal point stitches - and perhaps come up with an integrated solution themselves - not requiring the user to add a slide themselves between camera and tripod?

    I would have preferred a larger bulkier connection to a tripod than its current small diameter panning mechanism.

    I have to check all this stuff out - if it works as well as I am hoping - then I can start to ditch a lot of MF gear and replace it with 3-4 Rodenstocks and the arTec.

    Regarding mounts - we cant really 'blame' Sinar/Jenoptic for playing the same game as everyone is playing these days. However - note that one can use Leaf/Sinar and any V mount back on the system. Phase owners should actually hassle PHASE about their proprietary single at a time mount - rather than criticise Sinar for making what might be the killer product for architectural and certain landscape type shooting.

    Ironically the biggest issue for landscape shooting may actually be the limited focal lengths that Rodenstock make - focal lengths stop at around 100 at the long end in this mount if memory serves me correctly.

    I wont know until I try - and I have to go to Sydney from Melbourne to find out.

    Yaya has used the artec and may be able to chime in here with some observations....

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    oh and david - you posted as I was typing and gave me a great analogy in your shot. My Ducati came with racing as well as street pipes as well as two different chips to suit accordingly.

    Your Honda has the aftermarket Arrows plastered on - much better than the standard crapola - but Termiggnonis they aren't - but you didnt pay Ducati prices- so thats just fine.

    My point? it really BUGS me that users are asked to pay enormous dollars and important details like - nodal point shooting are not considered and incorporated in their system.

    My only wish from Hasselblad is that they GET IT INTO THEIR HEADS that a DNG file without all the hassle of having to go through Phocus would be VERY appreciated! I want to use a proper DAM workflow from the get go - not a cobbled together band aid version that suits some software engineers who dont care and create time and cost hassles for me. If I dont need /want teh DAC corrections I should be able to just use DNG output no?

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    I don't pay Ducati servicing either. ;-)

    ...but I still want one. Next time I am in Melbourne, I expect a demo!

    As for your second comment you are exactly right and progress is being made.

    David

    Actually, even though the Arrow is no Terry Wogan (our name for Termiggnonis) everyone comments on the sound out of it. Its spectacular... (without the 'optional extra' legal bit for it to pass EU regulation)

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    Next time you are down here - you can take Bella out for a ride - or better still comedown to the farm at the Mornington Peninsula ( about an hr out from CBD) and we can hit some vineyards etc etc as well as go for a serious fang on perfect bike roads.

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    Looks like the Gitzo 1228 is going to need to go into the buy and sell section. I've putting it off for awhile, but I need to be more diligent about using the right tripod and ball head for landscape shots.

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    Re: I really am a nerd - I did a tripod/head test in detail

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Hi Tim,

    I read this with interest as I just made some tripod captures for the high ISO thread...

    The only tripod I had to hand was a Gitzo GT-530 (don't laugh!) which is their smallest and lightest travel tripod...

    With mirror lock up and the camera+tripod combo on top of an old washing machine, I had no issue getting 2.5 second exposure with no shake. I did of course have no problems with wind!

    Here you go...

    That's a 100% crop of this image...

    I guess our shutter is very unobtrusive.

    Best,


    David
    Dave:

    For sure a leaf shutter is better at long exposures than a focal plane, however...

    Shutter vibration is of a frequency that renders the maximum deleterious effect at around 1/15th second in any system. As you go longer or shorter, the movement captured is mitigated significantly. When you get to 1/2 or 2x the effect, it is for all intents and purposes gone, or by 1/60th or 1/4th. So... Try a MLU shot with your Hassy at 1/15th on that same pod and get back to us. I suspect it will still be better than we can do with an FP shutter on that pod, but possibly not as good as I can do with an FP shutter on my more rigid pod

    PS: Yes, I do everything possible to avoid using 1/15th when shooting, even will purposely choose a smaller or larger aperture or change ISO. I have even been known to mount my 3x ND filter to avoid 1/15th. Seriously...

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: I really am a nerd - I did a tripod/head test in detail

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Dave:

    For sure a leaf shutter is better at long exposures than a focal plane, however...

    Shutter vibration is of a frequency that renders the maximum deleterious effect at around 1/15th second in any system. As you go longer or shorter, the movement captured is mitigated significantly. When you get to 1/2 or 2x the effect, it is for all intents and purposes gone, or by 1/60th or 1/4th. So... Try a MLU shot with your Hassy at 1/15th on that same pod and get back to us. I suspect it will still be better than we can do with an FP shutter on that pod, but possibly not as good as I can do with an FP shutter on my more rigid pod

    Cheers,
    Good point! Ill wheel out the washing machine tomorrow. ;-)

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    Re: I really am a nerd - I did a tripod/head test in detail

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Hi Tim,

    I read this with interest as I just made some tripod captures for the high ISO thread...

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showth...?t=6039&page=4

    The only tripod I had to hand was a Gitzo GT-530 (don't laugh!) which is their smallest and lightest travel tripod...
    I guess our shutter is very unobtrusive.

    Best,


    David
    Yup, it's a leaf shutter, which would be useful for my kind of work... that's why the Cambo works so well for me...

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    Re: I really am a nerd - I did a tripod/head test in detail

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Dave:

    For sure a leaf shutter is better at long exposures than a focal plane, however...

    Shutter vibration is of a frequency that renders the maximum deleterious effect at around 1/15th second in any system. As you go longer or shorter, the movement captured is mitigated significantly. When you get to 1/2 or 2x the effect, it is for all intents and purposes gone, or by 1/60th or 1/4th. So... Try a MLU shot with your Hassy at 1/15th on that same pod and get back to us. I suspect it will still be better than we can do with an FP shutter on that pod, but possibly not as good as I can do with an FP shutter on my more rigid pod

    PS: Yes, I do everything possible to avoid using 1/15th when shooting, even will purposely choose a smaller or larger aperture or change ISO. I have even been known to mount my 3x ND filter to avoid 1/15th. Seriously...

    Cheers,
    As promised A shot at 1/15s 2 secs after mirror up on my wobbly tripod.

    Full shot...



    Crop...



    D

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    Dave,

    Is the definition in the wrinkled paint on the pole good or bad for that lens? I ask, because it does look a bit soft to me, exactly like what I'd expect from my Mamiya system at 1/15th...
    Jack
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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Dave,

    Is the definition in the wrinkled paint on the pole good or bad for that lens? I ask, because it does look a bit soft to me, exactly like what I'd expect from my Mamiya system at 1/15th...
    I have to say I agree... it looks like either slight shake, or slight OOF, or a more aggressive AA filter...

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    Prob a bit of both. Focus point was in the distance so it is certainly not optimum for that!

    Oh and the fact I was on a tripod on top of a washing machine. ;-)

    Its the new 35-90 lens. :-)

    I have done some test shots from 35 to 90 and of course the definition is stunning. Don't have time to post tonight but will do so tomorrow.

    D
    Last edited by David Grover / Phase One; 17th March 2009 at 11:25.

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I have to say I agree... it looks like either slight shake, or slight OOF, or a more aggressive AA filter...
    No AA filters on any MFDB product Tim... except the Mamiya ZD as an option.

    D

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    David, do you really not have a stronger tripod? Perhaps you could post a 1/250s and a 1/15s shot right next to each other, so that the difference is more easily perceived?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    Not at the moment! I lent it out for a wee while.

    When it returns, I can do that for sure.

    D

  21. #71
    Pedro Mendes
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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    Hi
    I'm also looking for an ideal combo of tripod and head.This is the way I'll go (when i have the cash):
    tripod SACHTLER SPEED LOCK 75 CF with
    MANFROTTO 520BALL 75mm with knob
    Ideally,with a Cube on top of that I wouldn't need anything else.Otherwise, a levelling plate and a normal head.

    The Sachtler Swiss rep told me that this set is often used by wildlife shooters and in general by people using long lenses,but with one of the Sachtler video fluid heads.But this is out of my plans.
    Pedro

  22. #72
    jmvdigital
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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    I had a Sachtler system very similar to that. I had the Speed Lock 75 CF with a DV6 fluid head (about $2300 from B&H). Beautiful tripod, and fairly steady, but a big of a pain to carry and setup. The removable spreader in the middle gives you added stability, but it also adds more weight and fussiness in setup. The legs come with dual spiked feet with a pull over flat rubber pad.

    I can't tell you if two spindly carbon legs is better than one thick one. For video, shake stability is only one aspect, wind-up/twist while panning is another. Which is why alot of video tripods are dual poled for each leg, it reduces the tripod's ability to "twist." For photo, this is moot.

    The Sachtler also does not give you the ability to go any lower than the standard position of it's legs allows (about 24" I believe). There is no kicking one or two legs out (like on a Gitzo) to get level on the side of a hill or weird terrain or obstacle. You can't have the legs spread horizontally to get lower to the ground either.

    In my opinion, I definitely like my new Series-5 Gitzo carbon over the Sachtler. The build quality of the Gitzo (especially considering the Gitzo was a touch cheaper) is superior, IMHO. The Sachtler was almost entirely plastic, aside from the carbon tubes themselves. All fittings, feet, hinge points and bowl were all plastic. The DV6 was mostly metal, but that kinda made the whole rig top heavy anyway. The Gitzo is all CF and metal, and again, IMHO, will last and be far more durable.

    Also keep in mind, the Sachtler and a video head weigh in at a little over 12lbs., and is only rated to hold 20lbs.

    Just my .03 after owning both.

    -J

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    Here is a link to a Dutch site that performed a test on tripods:
    http://www.tvwg.nl/testrapporten/sta.../statieven.htm

    Tested under identical excitations on amplitude and decay time.
    Basically the conclusions are:
    Aluminium is worst, long vibration decay times, up to 12 seconds, carbon and wood much better decaytimes as short as 1.3 seconds.
    Quick translation:
    Pendelrespons: Respons to a low frequency excitation
    Pulsrespons: Respons to a high frequency excitation
    Natrillingstijd: decay time

    Value for money: wooden tripod.

    Jan R.
    IQ is Technology, PQ is YOU!

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    Actually, it looks like the CF twin-leg (Manfrotto) is best on both pendel and pulse, followed very closely by the Berlbach and Gitzo 1325 at almost identical results.
    Jack
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    Re: I really am a nerd - I did a tripod/head test in detail

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post

    PS: Yes, I do everything possible to avoid using 1/15th when shooting, even will purposely choose a smaller or larger aperture or change ISO. I have even been known to mount my 3x ND filter to avoid 1/15th. Seriously...

    Cheers,
    So, we should add the Funny 15 rule to the Sunny 16?

    Greg

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Actually, it looks like the CF twin-leg (Manfrotto) is best on both pendel and pulse, followed very closely by the Berlbach and Gitzo 1325 at almost identical results.
    Jack,

    Just looking at the amplitude this is correct, in the description it is said that these manfrotto's are quite stiff. But the decay time is significantly longer (6.9 and 12 seconds). This is the aluminium which has little internal damping by itself.

    Jan R.
    IQ is Technology, PQ is YOU!

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    I have recently begun to use a 25 Lb sandbag on the J hook on my 2541L. It works a charm. However now I have to carry a 25lb bag in addition to my beautifully lightweight carbon fiber pod which defeats the purpose don't you think?

    I am probably going to go with the 3500 series, bite the bullet on weight, and leave the sandpile at home. JMHO LOL

    Woody

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    Too funny woody!

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    Jack Would not the shutter vibration frequency vary based on the lens and type of shutter? I do not understand why they should be the same regardless of mechanism. If you have two different ropes each with a different mass --- and you use the same amount of force over the same specific time to wiggle it-- the frequency at which the rope wiggles would be different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Dave:



    For sure a leaf shutter is better at long exposures than a focal plane, however...

    Shutter vibration is of a frequency that renders the maximum deleterious effect at around 1/15th second in any system. As you go longer or shorter, the movement captured is mitigated significantly. When you get to 1/2 or 2x the effect, it is for all intents and purposes gone, or by 1/60th or 1/4th. So... Try a MLU shot with your Hassy at 1/15th on that same pod and get back to us. I suspect it will still be better than we can do with an FP shutter on that pod, but possibly not as good as I can do with an FP shutter on my more rigid pod

    PS: Yes, I do everything possible to avoid using 1/15th when shooting, even will purposely choose a smaller or larger aperture or change ISO. I have even been known to mount my 3x ND filter to avoid 1/15th. Seriously...

    Cheers,

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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    Quote Originally Posted by mark1958 View Post
    Jack Would not the shutter vibration frequency vary based on the lens and type of shutter? I do not understand why they should be the same regardless of mechanism. If you have two different ropes each with a different mass --- and you use the same amount of force over the same specific time to wiggle it-- the frequency at which the rope wiggles would be different.
    Agreed mark, but it may have to do more with the pluck side of the equation that imparts the harmonic in the tripod to begin with...
    Jack
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    Re: An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

    Quote Originally Posted by JanRSmit View Post
    Jack,

    Just looking at the amplitude this is correct, in the description it is said that these manfrotto's are quite stiff. But the decay time is significantly longer (6.9 and 12 seconds). This is the aluminium which has little internal damping by itself.
    Sorry, of course. It does look like CF is the king for decay time. I meant to imply that the double-leg design seemed to greatly impact rigidity, wood or aluminum... And Gitzo does have a twin-leg CF pod available, so I suspect it would be the best of all.
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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