An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

[jmvdigital]

You guys might be interested in reading the following article. I never found anything else on the web strictly testing tripod stability and vibration. Markins has some testing info on their site, but not quite like this. That said, I still bought a Gitzo carbon tripod, albeit a much burlier one than in this test.

http://www.optiline.no/berlebach/images/stativtest_lfi1_2006.PDF

It's interesting to note that the 2 most expensive tripods did the worst in this test. Now granted, stiffness and weight holding ability are different than overall stability and vibration damping. I think the lightness of the carbon paired with the utmost stiffness did them in on these test, they just pop around on the cardboard, whereas as the wood just flexes and absorbs. Before you start complaining that you don't shoot on cardboard, alot of the surfaces you set up on are a lot less rigid than you might think. We've all felt that 12" concrete and steel second floor of the mall flex when a few people walk by. Food for thought.

I almost went for wood after reading this; I still believe it would provide better vibration damping than my massive CF pod, but damn that CF is sexy and easier to deal with.

 

[carstenw]

(Justin and I were writing at the same time: his link is the LFI test I refer to.)

Leica Fotografie International (LFI) did a test in January 2006 where they pointed a laser pointer at a wall, loaded 8 different tripods (Berlebach, Gitzo, Giotto, Manfrotto, two each) with a 4kg camera setup with an equivalent of a 1700mm lens on it, focused on the laser dot, and induced three different kinds of vibration: shutter release, pendulum attached to the bottom of the tripod, and a 2kg bag which they let drop right next to the tripods, which were standing on corrugated carboard, to simulate a non-stable surface like earth. They then photographed the laser dot at 1/15s and compared the patterns made.

The tests could be summarized as follows: for a given weight of tripod, all tripods perform similarly, but wood, and carbon fiber dampen the best. In a per-Euro comparison, the Berlebach's wiped the floor with the rest, and the Gitzos were the worst.

Summary, for stability, you need a heavy tripod. The Berlebachs were 2.9kg and 2.7kg, respectively (Report 2022, Report 8023). The Gitzos were 1.9kg and 1.6kg (G1257LVL, G1198). The Manfrottos were 2.6kg and 1.9kg (055ProB, 055MF3). The Giottos were 2.6kg and 2.7kg (MT8170, MT9160). The Berlebach 2022 (2.9kg) was much better than anything else, with the Berlebach 8023 (2.7kg) being good too. The Manfrotto 055ProB (2.6kg) and Giotto MT8170 (2.6kg) were next, but noticeably worse. The Giotto was better than the Manfrotto (carbon vs. aluminium), but not that much.

In summary, for the kind of load they were using, you won't get around a tripod of around 3kg or just less. I presume that the shorter focal lengths of MF are compensated by the very high resolution of the sensors, and the situation won't be very different. The loads the tripods are capable of are totally irrelevant (other than you should not use one which cannot carry your camera).

My personal take: I will test my Manfrotto 055C, but am mentally prepared to order a Berlebach. I have given up on a Gitzo. Given that tripod weight is most important, the price just doesn't make sense.

 

[jlm]

keith:

i have a couple of carbon fiber Gitzo's, one with the flat plate (1325), one with the rapid rise center column (1328) if you are interested. About 4 lbs, and rated for 26 lb load. 3 section legs.

1325
http://www.photographyreview.com/cat/tripods/tripods/gitzo/PRD_143616_3114crx.aspx

1328 (similar to this)
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2123&highlight=gitzo

 

[kdphotography]

.... but damn that CF is sexy and easier to deal with.

I dunno. I've always thought that the Berlebach looks kinda sexy too....

Not quite in a "Arca-Cube-Porn-ish" kind of way, but just still damn retro-sexy.

 

[robsteve]

Yup I saw that... but IMHO landscapes and light aren't static: there's still a moment to be seized and sometimes that moment evolves faster than six seconds so I'd rather have a more well damped tripod rig so I have wider latitude of choice...

Tim:

Is it possible to prefire the mirror and then use a cable release to take the shot at the precise moment. When I shoot my DMR, this is what I do. The first press of the shutter release trips the mirror and I then wait for the moment to fire the shutter with a second press of the cable release.

Jack has seen a few of my DMR files in his printing workshop and he can attest to how sharp they are using this method.

Robert

 

[jmvdigital]

Tim:

Is it possible to prefire the mirror and then use a cable release to take the shot at the precise moment. When I shoot my DMR, this is what I do. The first press of the shutter release trips the mirror and I then wait for the moment to fire the shutter with a second press of the cable release.

Rob, I think he was explaining why he prefers a cable release (with MLU) versus MLU with a timer. You're on the same page.

-J

 

[Jack]

I have a wooden REIS pod, bought it because of all the "wood dampens vibrations better than anything" hype. In the end when shooting 8x10, I found it was all just hype. None of these had center columns, which very definitely degrade performance of any pod. My CF Gitzo 3 and 5 series literally blew the wooden REIS and Aluminum Gitzos away, and they weigh a *LOT* less. The REIS is now sitting in the corner of my studio with a Kodak Brownie mounted on it as thematic decoration. If anybody wants it, make me an offer

Currently I am using a Gitzo 3 series, 6x CF with NO center column (this is important!), with a good head mounted -- the Arca Cube -- and have NO vibration issues using a 3 second delay after mirror-up with my MF rig.

So in summary: I been there in the field, shooting in real-world situations with all of them, and I can heartily confirm nothing works better than CF in real-world applications.

HOWEVER! The one disclaimer is I am tall -- 6'-6" (198 CM) -- and as such my tripods are extended further than most folks and admittedly this *MAY* have an impact on final results.

So my .02 only and YMMV,

 

[tashley]

Tim:

Is it possible to prefire the mirror and then use a cable release to take the shot at the precise moment. When I shoot my DMR, this is what I do. The first press of the shutter release trips the mirror and I then wait for the moment to fire the shutter with a second press of the cable release.

Jack has seen a few of my DMR files in his printing workshop and he can attest to how sharp they are using this method.

Robert

Yup, it's what I always do at any shutter speed under about a 500th but on the tripod rig I was using in iceland it was still not enough to stop shake... plus after a while the camera gets bored and drops the mirror, usually just as the wave you have been waiting for swells up!

 

[tashley]

I have a wooden REIS pod, bought it because of all the "wood dampens vibrations better than anything" hype. In the end when shooting 8x10, I found it was all just hype. None of these had center columns, which very definitely degrade performance of any pod. My CF Gitzo 3 and 5 series literally blew the wooden REIS and Aluminum Gitzos away, and they weigh a *LOT* less. The REIS is now sitting in the corner of my studio with a Kodak Brownie mounted on it as thematic decoration. If anybody wants it, make me an offer

Currently I am using a Gitzo 3 series, 6x CF with NO center column (this is important!), with a good head mounted -- the Arca Cube -- and have NO vibration issues using a 3 second delay after mirror-up with my MF rig.

So in summary: I been there in the field, shooting in real-world situations with all of them, and I can heartily confirm nothing works better than CF in real-world applications.

HOWEVER! The one disclaimer is I am tall -- 6'-6" (198 CM) -- and as such my tripods are extended further than most folks and admittedly this *MAY* have an impact on final results.

So my .02 only and YMMV,

Okay Jack, that sounds good enough for me... now to investigate the costs of it all. I love the look of the cube and have been itching to get one!

T

 

[tashley]

How to gauge how shakey your rig is...

I have a new method for quick 'n' dirty evaluation of how rigid a tripod/head combo is. I put a long lens (at least 100mm but 300 is best) on a canon 5dMKII and then set it to MF, live view, 10x focus view on the rig in question. Then I try it briefly in a breeze, on a wooden floor, walk around a bit, tap the pod legs, tap the camera etc.

You'd be amazed at how much you can tell from this and how much it makes you realise just how much jitter there is on a tripod!

T

 

[KeithL]

keith:

i have a couple of carbon fiber Gitzo's, one with the flat plate (1325), one with the rapid rise center column (1328) if you are interested.

Thanks, but I really need the flexibility of a Benbo but in CF, hence my interest in the Gitzo Explorer series.

Keith

 

[Dale Allyn]

The Gitzo Explorer is quite nice, as is the similar "crane-style" 'pod from Induro. One possible advantage (depending on one's taste) is that the Induro allows the column to slide down the center, rather than along the side of center, when used upright.

I'm preferring larger legs than these for my Mamiya gear, but have used these with my 5D and lenses to 300mm. For macro the Explorer style tripods are really helpful for DSLR sized kits.

 

[Jack]

Re: How to gauge how shakey your rig is...

I have a new method for quick 'n' dirty evaluation of how rigid a tripod/head combo is. I put a long lens (at least 100mm but 300 is best) on a canon 5dMKII and then set it to MF, live view, 10x focus view on the rig in question. Then I try it briefly in a breeze, on a wooden floor, walk around a bit, tap the pod legs, tap the camera etc.

You'd be amazed at how much you can tell from this and how much it makes you realise just how much jitter there is on a tripod!

T

FWIW, if you check by banging legs, I suspect wood may win. However if you check by banging the camera, I suspect CF will win

 

[Don Libby]

I use a Gitzo GT5540LS along with a Cube and find that it is a rock solid combination. I also used this combination testing a Cambo Ultima last week and found it solid even with the added weight.

This pod works well for me putting the camera just about at eye level; I did find I had to lower the legs when I used the Ultima.

I'm slightly taller than Jack and this is a system that works well for me.

Don

 

[Jack]

I'm slightly taller than Jack

Braggart!




:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

 

[spotmeter]

I'm looking to buy a carbon fibre Gitzo Explorer. The reduced weight will be a bonus when trekking but I'm a little concerned that I'll always need to weigh the tripod down to get the stability of a heaver tripod. Any experience anyone?

I carry a backpack and a Gitzo 1325 CF. When taking a photo, I sling the backpack over the tripod by clipping together the two small straps that hold the shoulder straps together. The weight of the lenses inside the backpack makes the tripod very stable.

 

[carstenw]

Interestingly, Don's Gitzo weighs around 2.8kg, the same as the more stable tripods in the LFI test. There seems to be something about getting up around this weight... One thing that LFI sadly didn't test is what happens to vibration dampening when you hang something from the hook. Clearly the tripod is more stable, but does it dampen vibrations better too?

It occurs to me that Jack and Don might have a completely different tripod experience than the rest of us who don't need a tripod which reaches into the lower cloud levels

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I am STILL waiting for my new Gitzo to come . Mine is a much lower cloud level style. 3541L with center column. I happen to like center column for when I need to be taller for doing interiors and such also it gives me some micro adjustment if I need a inch or two to get higher. Even though a center column can be problematic it keeps the size of the legs down for travel and such. I had the 2 series 2451L and just wanted a little more meat

 

[Jack]

It occurs to me that Jack and Don might have a completely different tripod experience than the rest of us who don't need a tripod which reaches into the lower cloud levels

FWIW, my main pod is the 3541XLS (it only weighs 1.97kg) and I use it with the first 2 moveable sections fully extended and the last section about 6" extended 90% of the time. And I will go to the mat saying it's the single best tripod I've ever used. But again, I do *NOT* have a center column in it, just the flat top plate -- I strongly believe center columns increase vibrations even if set to their lowest level...

Oh, and I *used* to replace the brass head bolt on the underside of the top plate with a steel 3/8" thread eye-bolt, which provided a "hook" to hang my bag from. In the end, I felt the practice offered variable results; a swinging 30 pound bag adding more movement to the assembly than it removed... (Note of caution if you try this -- that brass bolt is blind-pinned into place and you have to snap that hidden pin to remove it, rendering the bolt useless for reuse. Use a jam nut on the underside of the plate to hold whatever new bolt you replace it with firmly in place.)

Cheers,

 

[Jack]

Okay Jack, that sounds good enough for me... now to investigate the costs of it all. I love the look of the cube and have been itching to get one!

T

Tim,

The Cube is outlandishly expensive, but *EVERYBODY* I've recommended it to that actually bought it, has commented that the pain of purchase was forgotten after the first 15 minutes of use. Really, I'm not making that up.

The real killer for me, was the realization that when sitting on top of my Gitzo CF pod, the money invested in the total pod assembly would provide maybe 3 years worth of food and lodging for a family of 5 in any 3rd world country...

Cheers,