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An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Re: I really am a nerd - I did a tripod/head test in detail

Hi Tim,

I read this with interest as I just made some tripod captures for the high ISO thread...

The only tripod I had to hand was a Gitzo GT-530 (don't laugh!) which is their smallest and lightest travel tripod...

With mirror lock up and the camera+tripod combo on top of an old washing machine, I had no issue getting 2.5 second exposure with no shake. I did of course have no problems with wind!

Here you go...

That's a 100% crop of this image...

I guess our shutter is very unobtrusive.

Best,


David
Dave:

For sure a leaf shutter is better at long exposures than a focal plane, however...

Shutter vibration is of a frequency that renders the maximum deleterious effect at around 1/15th second in any system. As you go longer or shorter, the movement captured is mitigated significantly. When you get to 1/2 or 2x the effect, it is for all intents and purposes gone, or by 1/60th or 1/4th. So... Try a MLU shot with your Hassy at 1/15th on that same pod and get back to us. I suspect it will still be better than we can do with an FP shutter on that pod, but possibly not as good as I can do with an FP shutter on my more rigid pod ;)

PS: Yes, I do everything possible to avoid using 1/15th when shooting, even will purposely choose a smaller or larger aperture or change ISO. I have even been known to mount my 3x ND filter to avoid 1/15th. Seriously...

Cheers,
 
Re: I really am a nerd - I did a tripod/head test in detail

Dave:

For sure a leaf shutter is better at long exposures than a focal plane, however...

Shutter vibration is of a frequency that renders the maximum deleterious effect at around 1/15th second in any system. As you go longer or shorter, the movement captured is mitigated significantly. When you get to 1/2 or 2x the effect, it is for all intents and purposes gone, or by 1/60th or 1/4th. So... Try a MLU shot with your Hassy at 1/15th on that same pod and get back to us. I suspect it will still be better than we can do with an FP shutter on that pod, but possibly not as good as I can do with an FP shutter on my more rigid pod ;)

Cheers,
Good point! Ill wheel out the washing machine tomorrow. ;-)
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Re: I really am a nerd - I did a tripod/head test in detail

Hi Tim,

I read this with interest as I just made some tripod captures for the high ISO thread...

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6039&page=4

The only tripod I had to hand was a Gitzo GT-530 (don't laugh!) which is their smallest and lightest travel tripod...
I guess our shutter is very unobtrusive.

Best,


David
Yup, it's a leaf shutter, which would be useful for my kind of work... that's why the Cambo works so well for me...
 
Re: I really am a nerd - I did a tripod/head test in detail

Dave:

For sure a leaf shutter is better at long exposures than a focal plane, however...

Shutter vibration is of a frequency that renders the maximum deleterious effect at around 1/15th second in any system. As you go longer or shorter, the movement captured is mitigated significantly. When you get to 1/2 or 2x the effect, it is for all intents and purposes gone, or by 1/60th or 1/4th. So... Try a MLU shot with your Hassy at 1/15th on that same pod and get back to us. I suspect it will still be better than we can do with an FP shutter on that pod, but possibly not as good as I can do with an FP shutter on my more rigid pod ;)

PS: Yes, I do everything possible to avoid using 1/15th when shooting, even will purposely choose a smaller or larger aperture or change ISO. I have even been known to mount my 3x ND filter to avoid 1/15th. Seriously...

Cheers,
As promised A shot at 1/15s 2 secs after mirror up on my wobbly tripod.

Full shot...



Crop...



D
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Dave,

Is the definition in the wrinkled paint on the pole good or bad for that lens? I ask, because it does look a bit soft to me, exactly like what I'd expect from my Mamiya system at 1/15th...
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Dave,

Is the definition in the wrinkled paint on the pole good or bad for that lens? I ask, because it does look a bit soft to me, exactly like what I'd expect from my Mamiya system at 1/15th...
I have to say I agree... it looks like either slight shake, or slight OOF, or a more aggressive AA filter...
 
Prob a bit of both. Focus point was in the distance so it is certainly not optimum for that!

Oh and the fact I was on a tripod on top of a washing machine. ;-)

Its the new 35-90 lens. :)

I have done some test shots from 35 to 90 and of course the definition is stunning. Don't have time to post tonight but will do so tomorrow.

D
 
Last edited:

carstenw

Active member
David, do you really not have a stronger tripod? Perhaps you could post a 1/250s and a 1/15s shot right next to each other, so that the difference is more easily perceived?
 
P

Pedro Mendes

Guest
Hi
I'm also looking for an ideal combo of tripod and head.This is the way I'll go (when i have the cash):
tripod SACHTLER SPEED LOCK 75 CF with
MANFROTTO 520BALL 75mm with knob
Ideally,with a Cube on top of that I wouldn't need anything else.Otherwise, a levelling plate and a normal head.

The Sachtler Swiss rep told me that this set is often used by wildlife shooters and in general by people using long lenses,but with one of the Sachtler video fluid heads.But this is out of my plans.
Pedro
 
J

jmvdigital

Guest
I had a Sachtler system very similar to that. I had the Speed Lock 75 CF with a DV6 fluid head (about $2300 from B&H). Beautiful tripod, and fairly steady, but a big of a pain to carry and setup. The removable spreader in the middle gives you added stability, but it also adds more weight and fussiness in setup. The legs come with dual spiked feet with a pull over flat rubber pad.

I can't tell you if two spindly carbon legs is better than one thick one. For video, shake stability is only one aspect, wind-up/twist while panning is another. Which is why alot of video tripods are dual poled for each leg, it reduces the tripod's ability to "twist." For photo, this is moot.

The Sachtler also does not give you the ability to go any lower than the standard position of it's legs allows (about 24" I believe). There is no kicking one or two legs out (like on a Gitzo) to get level on the side of a hill or weird terrain or obstacle. You can't have the legs spread horizontally to get lower to the ground either.

In my opinion, I definitely like my new Series-5 Gitzo carbon over the Sachtler. The build quality of the Gitzo (especially considering the Gitzo was a touch cheaper) is superior, IMHO. The Sachtler was almost entirely plastic, aside from the carbon tubes themselves. All fittings, feet, hinge points and bowl were all plastic. The DV6 was mostly metal, but that kinda made the whole rig top heavy anyway. The Gitzo is all CF and metal, and again, IMHO, will last and be far more durable.

Also keep in mind, the Sachtler and a video head weigh in at a little over 12lbs., and is only rated to hold 20lbs.

Just my .03 after owning both.

-J
 

JanRSmit

New member
Here is a link to a Dutch site that performed a test on tripods:
http://www.tvwg.nl/testrapporten/statieven/statieven.htm

Tested under identical excitations on amplitude and decay time.
Basically the conclusions are:
Aluminium is worst, long vibration decay times, up to 12 seconds, carbon and wood much better decaytimes as short as 1.3 seconds.
Quick translation:
Pendelrespons: Respons to a low frequency excitation
Pulsrespons: Respons to a high frequency excitation
Natrillingstijd: decay time

Value for money: wooden tripod.

Jan R.
IQ is Technology, PQ is YOU!
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Actually, it looks like the CF twin-leg (Manfrotto) is best on both pendel and pulse, followed very closely by the Berlbach and Gitzo 1325 at almost identical results.
 

gsking

New member
Re: I really am a nerd - I did a tripod/head test in detail

PS: Yes, I do everything possible to avoid using 1/15th when shooting, even will purposely choose a smaller or larger aperture or change ISO. I have even been known to mount my 3x ND filter to avoid 1/15th. Seriously...

Cheers,
So, we should add the Funny 15 rule to the Sunny 16? :eek:

Greg
 

JanRSmit

New member
Actually, it looks like the CF twin-leg (Manfrotto) is best on both pendel and pulse, followed very closely by the Berlbach and Gitzo 1325 at almost identical results.
Jack,

Just looking at the amplitude this is correct, in the description it is said that these manfrotto's are quite stiff. But the decay time is significantly longer (6.9 and 12 seconds). This is the aluminium which has little internal damping by itself.

Jan R.
IQ is Technology, PQ is YOU!
 

woodyspedden

New member
I have recently begun to use a 25 Lb sandbag on the J hook on my 2541L. It works a charm. However now I have to carry a 25lb bag in addition to my beautifully lightweight carbon fiber pod which defeats the purpose don't you think?

I am probably going to go with the 3500 series, bite the bullet on weight, and leave the sandpile at home. JMHO LOL

Woody
 

mark1958

Member
Jack Would not the shutter vibration frequency vary based on the lens and type of shutter? I do not understand why they should be the same regardless of mechanism. If you have two different ropes each with a different mass --- and you use the same amount of force over the same specific time to wiggle it-- the frequency at which the rope wiggles would be different.

Dave:



For sure a leaf shutter is better at long exposures than a focal plane, however...

Shutter vibration is of a frequency that renders the maximum deleterious effect at around 1/15th second in any system. As you go longer or shorter, the movement captured is mitigated significantly. When you get to 1/2 or 2x the effect, it is for all intents and purposes gone, or by 1/60th or 1/4th. So... Try a MLU shot with your Hassy at 1/15th on that same pod and get back to us. I suspect it will still be better than we can do with an FP shutter on that pod, but possibly not as good as I can do with an FP shutter on my more rigid pod ;)

PS: Yes, I do everything possible to avoid using 1/15th when shooting, even will purposely choose a smaller or larger aperture or change ISO. I have even been known to mount my 3x ND filter to avoid 1/15th. Seriously...

Cheers,
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Jack Would not the shutter vibration frequency vary based on the lens and type of shutter? I do not understand why they should be the same regardless of mechanism. If you have two different ropes each with a different mass --- and you use the same amount of force over the same specific time to wiggle it-- the frequency at which the rope wiggles would be different.
Agreed mark, but it may have to do more with the pluck side of the equation that imparts the harmonic in the tripod to begin with...
 
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