What about CFV-50c vs. X1D?

[richardman]

Enough about GFX vs. X1D, what I really want to know is CFV-50C vs. X1D

This is in the context of the 203FE, so metering is available.

PRO for 203FE+CFV-50C:

• Zeiss classic lens with unique signatures
• SLR viewing
• Faster startup
• Less expensive overall
• Add a Biogon SWC for "wide" (38mm)

CON:

• Lack of any non-fisheye lens wider than 40mm and the 40mm is expensive
• Much heavier and larger
• Old lens design
• Discontinued and can only be serviced by Hasselblad
• No autofocus
• May have shiming / perfect alignment issues
• 2xx modified for digital back loses E12 data connection

Anything else? My situation is that I have a 203FE with 50/2.8, 80/2.8, 150/2.8 FE lens, + a 120mm "Petzvar" Petzval. Love the lens rendition, but I love to print large (my normal camera is a 4x5). I believe the Sony sensor can give output quality rivals/exceeds the 4x5 (but I will continue to use my 4x5 for many projects for other reasons) and either of these setup will give the quality I need. My goal is documentary travel photography, hence looking for something easier than the 4x5.

Any advices appreciated. Budget IS a huge issue, and it would be a stretch just to get a used CFV-50C. I know they are discontinued and prices may go up, or they may go down as more people move to the X1D.

O know Darr and "Ai Print" love their CFV-50C. Looking for additional input.

Thanks

 

[rmueller]

Hi,

i believe it is the shooting style you're after more than anything else. I was in a similar situation few weeks ago,
my two options being:

• Upgrade existing H3DII-31 to H6D-50c
• Get the X1D

I decided to upgrade my H3D to H6D-50c because I'm a slow shooter, like to setup a bulky body on a tripod, enjoy
a bright optical view finder etc.
The X1D is too close in shooting style to my M-P 240 which i carry for travel, the H6D goes into a rucksack and i certainly
don't carry it on a strap the entire day. Although the new 50MP CMOS sensors are perfectly fine for shooting without tripod,
the H6D is on the tripod most of the time. I don't see that with the X1D happening, but this is personal preference of course.
Your situation is different in the sense that the V system is no longer in production and there is no real wide angle option, not
even with the 38mm Biogon (when compared to the 22m lens that is supposed to come for the X1D). My wife owns the
CFV-50c and she's happy. The bred and butter lens for this is the CFE 40 IF, all others seem a bit soft compared to the 40 IF.
We haven't done a pixel-to-pixel comparison of the CFV-50c vs. H6D-50c since my H6D is just two weeks old and i'm really
not into pixel comparison business.
I'd probably wait a bit, what i hear from my HB dealer and rep is that there is a new CFV-50c coming, mostly cosmetic
updates with touch screen, USB-C etc., pretty much what is in the H6D's today. Maybe then prices of the old CFV-50c
drop.

Regards,
Ralf

 

[Godfrey]

I have been mulling over this exact thing for some time. I also have a pretty complete V system (SWC with 38mm, 500CM and 50, 80, 120 Macro, 150 mm lenses) and would like a digital capture solution ... but particularly for the SWC. And the smaller sensor size of the CFV-50c is an obstacle there, never mind how it performs with the Biogon 38.

In my case, I'm not after massively huge prints. The Leica SL and my complement of lenses for it do a great job in digital capture with 24 Mpixel, and I can even simulate the SWC look and feel to a great degree by going to a Super-Elmar-R 15mm lens and setting the crop to square (and opening up the lens to f/4 most of the time, rather than f/8-f/11 like I would be using on the SWC). But I'd love the larger sensor format/higher pixel count for that when the X1D's 22mm lens comes available, and the X1D plus one lens is about what the CVF-50c kit would cost. Ultra-wide ala the SWC really does need more resolution and a top-notch modern lens compared what I can get out of the SL with 16 Mpixel. And the X1D with the 120 Macro is going to be another superb shooting tool (never mind that it will make an excellent tool for digitizing SWC negatives ... ).

So for me the answer is likely the X1D, at some point. I await the availability of the 22 and 120 lenses, and am slowly accreting the money to pay for it all. Part of that will likely be*from selling off the V system (but not the SWC) unless I can fund it before I get to that (the V system is very dear to me, it will be the last of my sell offs).

G

 

[pflower]

I bought a CFV-50c last June, having decided that upgrading to the H6D from my H3D-39 was not economically sensible. This was before the X1D was announced. Had it been announced at that time then I probably would have waited for it. Have now sold it and bought an X1D.

There is something hugely satisfying about using of the V series of cameras - in my case a 503cx which has been knocked about since 1990 (and bought second hand then). But whilst the files from the CFV-50c were beautiful the experience was not perfect. I have put thousands of rolls of film through the 503 - a very substantial proportion hand held at shutter speeds of around 1/60th (brace the camera with the strap against your body, put the mirror up and it is surprising what you can get on film). With the CFV-50c virtually all of my first 100 shots or so were not sharp - even on a tripod. The problem was that the camera itself needed servicing and calibration for focus. Once that had been done things improved. But in reality it is not a system for using hand held. At a 1/250th, better 1/500th it is ok, but the digital experience is that one does check images at 100% and if they fall short of absolute sharpness you tend to reject them. That maybe a mistake - would anything shot on Tri-X or HP5 show the same insane sharpness of a digital file and yet we still love them and print them big.

However my view is that the CFV-50c is really for tripod use, with a properly calibrated camera and using live view (where it is feasible - since live view has some quirks and outdoors can be tricky to see clearly). Yes it is feasible to use hand held but not easy. The other problem is the crop size - my standard 80mm was too long for my taste so the 50mm CFE became my standard lens - much heavier. Probably if I had considered sticking with the system I would have given serious thought to buying a 40mm. However it is certainly useable for a travel camera. I have just returned from Cambodia and spent 10 days around the temples in the Angkor Wat area with it - no problems (although in that heat and humidity it helps to have a guide who will carry the tripod and your bag). However having just taken delivery of my X1D I do regret that I didn't have that instead.

I will go back to using film on my 503 and will enjoy it. But for digital the X1D offers a lot more - portability, wider lenses, the potential to use it as a hand held walkabout camera and the same quality of files.

Enough about GFX vs. X1D, what I really want to know is CFV-50C vs. X1D

This is in the context of the 203FE, so metering is available.

PRO for 203FE+CFV-50C:

• Zeiss classic lens with unique signatures
• SLR viewing
• Faster startup
• Less expensive overall
• Add a Biogon SWC for "wide" (38mm)

CON:

• Lack of any non-fisheye lens wider than 40mm and the 40mm is expensive
• Much heavier and larger
• Old lens design
• Discontinued and can only be serviced by Hasselblad
• No autofocus
• May have shiming / perfect alignment issues
• 2xx modified for digital back loses E12 data connection

Anything else? My situation is that I have a 203FE with 50/2.8, 80/2.8, 150/2.8 FE lens, + a 120mm "Petzvar" Petzval. Love the lens rendition, but I love to print large (my normal camera is a 4x5). I believe the Sony sensor can give output quality rivals/exceeds the 4x5 (but I will continue to use my 4x5 for many projects for other reasons) and either of these setup will give the quality I need. My goal is documentary travel photography, hence looking for something easier than the 4x5.

Any advices appreciated. Budget IS a huge issue, and it would be a stretch just to get a used CFV-50C. I know they are discontinued and prices may go up, or they may go down as more people move to the X1D.

O know Darr and "Ai Print" love their CFV-50C. Looking for additional input.

Thanks

 

[JohnBrew]

I use mine on an RM3di w/Rodie glass. I don't love it, but I do like it. Great color and depth of color. LV is okay and you can use it to focus with some practice. More resolution would be appreciated. Also several of us have harped about lack of a battery life indicator (it only comes on when the battery is just about dead). Battery life is good, much better than a P45+ for example, although that might not be saying much. I use a Hoodman loupe all the time. I have always been a fan of Hasselblad's menu implementation.
Whether of not I would get an X1D? Don't know. I haven't handled one so can't say. The form factor, touch screen w/more resolution, AF all appeal to me. The EVF is the elephant in the room for me - someday I suppose I'll find out if I could live with it, but it has some big shoes to fill because the H series viewfinder is just terrific imo.
Anyway, good luck with your choice.

 

[jng]

I agree 100% with pflower that getting the most out of the V system with digital back requires spot-on calibration of the focusing system and a solid tripod. Not to mention patience and a sharp eye to bring things into proper focus. When everything works the results are great. However it's a labor of love, which I think sums up why people (like me) would even bother in the first place. My biggest concern is that the days may be numbered for getting these old cameras and lenses serviced but I'm already invested so will keep using them for as long as they work and I can get them serviced.

A few weeks ago I was up in the Seattle area and wandered into Kenmore Camera to help a friend look at some lens choices for his Sony A6500. It's a very nice shop and the staff was quite helpful. On the way out, the fellow helping us off-handedly mentioned something about a "9000 dollar Hasselblad," which of course I just had to fiddle with while my wife and friend waited patiently for the kid to play in the toy store. I was a little rushed (but not by the salesperson) so didn't get to set up the X1D as I might have liked. But I felt like I was operating a computer which is what I dislike about my Sony and quite different than even my Nikon or the more contemplative approach I've come to appreciate with my 501CM + MFDB. The X1D seems like a camera I'd take with me when traveling and wanting the medium format look, but I'll save my limited get-out-of-jail-free cards for later. Or maybe buy a 100 Mp system when my wife isn't paying attention!

Good luck!

John

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Some comments. Where I am coming from:

• Own a Hasselblad 555/ELD with six lenses (40/4 CF FLE, 60/3.5 CF, 100/3.5CF, 120/4 CFi, 180/4 CFi)
• Have also owned a Distagon 50/4CF, Planar 80/2.8CF and a couple of Sonnar 150/4s (CB and CF)
• Own a P45+ back
• Shooting with that combo since 2013, but very little use since 2016
• I have always been and still am an MFD skeptic. I think that MFD cameras are great, but I don't think they do all the magic things they are supposed to do. Just to say, I am an engineer by profession.

I would mostly agree with your pros and cons. What I would add is:

• The Planar 100/3.5CF and the Sonnars (150/4CF, 180/4CF) are very good and perfectly capable of large prints. But, I would also think the X1D and GFX lenses are a notch better.
• With the Planar 80/2.8 and all the Distagons I had I felt they had issues. But I would still think they are capable large prints, say 80x120 cm if you keep viewing distance above 80 cm. I have little doubt that the X1D and GFX lenses are much better.
• Focusing the 555/ELD is hard, if perfect sharpness is sought. I used it with PM5 viewfinder and a Zeiss 3X monocular.

If you like shooting with the V-series and don't need live view, a CCD back may be a good choice. CCD backs don't have the dynamic range of modern CMOS but they will still work fine.

The question of a digital back vs. 4x5" has no easy answer. When the P45/P45+ arrived many 4x5" users switched to digital:

Art of RAW Conversion #028@Digital Outback Photo
Joseph Holmes - News: Medium Format Methods for Sharpness
Measuring Megabytes - Luminous Landscape

At that time, 4x5" was often drum scanned at 2000PPI. It has been stated that scanning at higher PPI (like 6000 PPI) gives superior results with 4x5":

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/slade/know/admin/wp-content/uploads/Big-Camera-Comparison-On-Landscape.pdf

From where I stand I would be attracted to the Fuji GFX and to lesser extent to the X1D. But i have spent to much on gear in the last couple of years. Also I transitioned to the Sony A7rII and that camera is a pretty perfect match for my needs with the lenses I use.

I would look into the Fuji GFX a bit, of course depending on your needs. Why?

• Prices are probably a bit lower and that may matter.
• With 100% probability there will be an adapter allowing the use of V-mount lenses on the GFX. Why, because both Novoflex and Kipon make smart adapters, with separate front plates. So they just make a back end tube and than you can use that back end with all front adapters (I have Pentax 67 and Hasselblad V). The X1D has no built in shutter, so it needs a leaf shutter in the lens. It is possible that Hasselblad develops an adapter controlling the leaf shutter in the V-series lenses for the Hx cameras.
• But, if you need fast sync for flash for outdoor usage the GFX is not the option to have.

Here are a few P45+ samples (mostly up to full size)
https://echophoto.smugmug.com/Technical/P45-Samples/

Here is a significant bunch of Hasselblad 555/ELD + P45+ images with raw files:
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/80-my-mfd-journey-summing-up?start=5


Best regards
Erik

Enough about GFX vs. X1D, what I really want to know is CFV-50C vs. X1D

This is in the context of the 203FE, so metering is available.

PRO for 203FE+CFV-50C:

• Zeiss classic lens with unique signatures
• SLR viewing
• Faster startup
• Less expensive overall
• Add a Biogon SWC for "wide" (38mm)

CON:

• Lack of any non-fisheye lens wider than 40mm and the 40mm is expensive
• Much heavier and larger
• Old lens design
• Discontinued and can only be serviced by Hasselblad
• No autofocus
• May have shiming / perfect alignment issues
• 2xx modified for digital back loses E12 data connection

Anything else? My situation is that I have a 203FE with 50/2.8, 80/2.8, 150/2.8 FE lens, + a 120mm "Petzvar" Petzval. Love the lens rendition, but I love to print large (my normal camera is a 4x5). I believe the Sony sensor can give output quality rivals/exceeds the 4x5 (but I will continue to use my 4x5 for many projects for other reasons) and either of these setup will give the quality I need. My goal is documentary travel photography, hence looking for something easier than the 4x5.

Any advices appreciated. Budget IS a huge issue, and it would be a stretch just to get a used CFV-50C. I know they are discontinued and prices may go up, or they may go down as more people move to the X1D.

O know Darr and "Ai Print" love their CFV-50C. Looking for additional input.

Thanks

 

[richardman]

Thanks all for comments and food for thoughts.

Certainly IF I move to the X1D option, I would look at the GFX as well. FYI - using a tripod is not an issue.

 

[tjv]

Out of interest, what is the V-series 60mm CFi or CB like? I have a V mount Credo 60 that is currently used exclusively on a tech camera, but would love a V body for a more basic setup, still using on a lighter tripod.

 

[richardman]

BTW, my standard is being able to print 44"x55" if needed, even if I don't do it all the time. I just exhibit 10 such prints:

https://medium.com/@richardmanphoto...ansgender-day-of-visibility-2017-bd13cd39fb4f

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Here is a sample: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Shoots/Distagon_60_3_5_CF/

Probably Distagon 60/3.5 CF at f/11.

Best regards
Erik

Out of interest, what is the V-series 60mm CFi or CB like? I have a V mount Credo 60 that is currently used exclusively on a tech camera, but would love a V body for a more basic setup, still using on a lighter tripod.