New Leica S this year?

[tjv]

Hi all,

I have no skin in the game with regards to the Leica S system, but I've long liked the system (save for the poor reliability reports of especially the lenses...)

I read on LUF some users insisting an "008" camera is on its was in September with 80mpx. Do people here think this is wishful thinking, or does anyone have any information? I'm guessing that to new buyers the S 007 is a bit of a hard sell, mainly due to the older sensor and longstanding lens reliability reports, but now there is a formal acknolwedgement and fix for the problem (I know this in itself has caused some controversy,) perhaps the brilliant optical performance and OVF of the S will lure people back in?

 

[glenerrolrd]

Its a terrific system ..the lenses are all I could ask for and almost a complete set (needs a 300-350) . If it gets to 80MP it meets all my requirements .

 

[MGrayson]

The 008 rumor comes from a very colorful figure who enjoys baiting self-styled internet mavens - usually through deliberate errors. That doesn't mean he's wrong here, as he seems well connected. And I certainly hope he's right. I'd just take the rumor as interesting and not make plans based upon it.

Best,

Matt

 

[erlingmm]

In my view - totally unfounded rumors.

 

[drevil]

I am no expert on leica, but given that the current S only has....34mp? on a smaller sensor area than most competitors i think a jump to 80mp would be too much.
considering how conservative they increase the MP in the Ms and SL cameras, stuck at 24mp for years.

sure a S008 might be on the horizon but 80mp, just my 2cents, i dont think so.

 

[MGrayson]

37.5MP, but who's counting and 30x45 is a bit smaller than 33x44, but not much.

Anyway, the pixel density of the Sony 100MP chip cut down to that size yields 57.4MP, so a 60MP version is not at all beyond current tech. Of course, a Canon 5DSR scaled up gives something like 80MP. Never mind a cell phone

I'd imagine Leica wanting the large sensor pixels and not the smaller, but I don't have any idea what they're planning.

--Matt

 

[mjr]

Personally speaking, I have always liked Leica's approach to image quality over than the endless race for more megapixels, there will always be those that want more, those who would never need as many as 37mp and many in between. I have some of my absolute favourite shots from the 006 and 007 and at no point have I looked at any of these and thought they could have been better had they been shot on a sensor with more megapixels, I have 3 prints each at 1.2m wide from single files which look amazing.

I would love to get back in to an S at some point, more likely just for personal use, the relentless march of technology is not always positive for me, if for example 80mp turned out to be true, the benefits of the S as a really nice hand holdable camera with gorgeous lenses would likely be lost as the increased resolution would likely demand more tripod use, who knows.

If I was to make a wish list it would be for longer exposures and tilt shift lenses and that would likely be it, but then I'm not a current user so my view may be different if I was. Whatever, I'm sure a new body is on the cards, it will be really interesting to see what it's like.

Mat

 

[Kolor-Pikker]

37.5MP, but who's counting and 30x45 is a bit smaller than 33x44, but not much.

Anyway, the pixel density of the Sony 100MP chip cut down to that size yields 57.4MP, so a 60MP version is not at all beyond current tech. Of course, a Canon 5DSR scaled up gives something like 80MP. Never mind a cell phone

I'd imagine Leica wanting the large sensor pixels and not the smaller, but I don't have any idea what they're planning.

--Matt

Leica is working mainly with CMOSiS for their imaging chips, so looking at Sony's offerings isn't a clear indicator of where they'll go in terms of features. In any case, I'd primarily want to see Leica work on a few things to push the state of the art in medium format going forward:
1. IBIS - usable for both stabilization and supersampling, this would really push the usability of the camera in various scenarios.
2. More advanced AF - seeing as the S is one of the "sportier" MF cameras, it's about time they took their one really nice AF point and threw in a few dozen of them.
3. Make a flip screen - really doesn't compromise on anything, it's the least worn part on my 645Z despite being the only one that moves.

I'm sure there are other things I'd like there to be, but these are the primary ones I feel are needed for any system in 2017 and going forward, except for application-specific cameras.

 

[voidshatter]

Leica's teammate, Panasonic, is not so world-leading at sensor design. If Leica picked Sony, everything could have changed.

M-mount, R-mount, S-mount, SL-mount... Looks like it didn't work out quite well for them to keep making new mounts. It looks like M-mount is still their core business while most retailers refuse to stock S Typ 007.

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

The thing is that more pixels, within reasonable bounds, yield better image quality.

• Smaller pixels will give better and smoother detail.
• Smaller pixels will yield less fake detail, detail the lens delivers but the sensor cannot handle will always turn into fake detail.
• Smaller pixels will have better microcontrast.
• Pixel size has little effect on mid tone noise.
• Smaller pixels are not more prone to vibration than larger pixels. Obviously, pixel peeping at actual pixels will show more shake, but that is because we have higher image magnification. If you print, camera shake will have exactly the same effect on say 37MP and 74MP

Just as an example, when Phase One went from 65 MP to 80 MP it was felt as a major improvement in image quality. Also with Phase One going from the IQ3-80MP to the IQ3-100MP it was perceived as a major upgrade in image quality.

The parameter negatively affected by reducing pixel size is DR. Increasing MP count twice will drop 1/2EV in DR, but that has been fully compensated by sensor development.

Sony published a roadmap with 100 MP 44x33 mm sensor coming in 2018. Little doubt that the new sensor will improve over the now 3-4 year old 50 MP 44x33 sensor in all aspects.

So, I am pretty sure the ribbon will be raised a couple of notches in 2018.

Would Leica be smart, they would go with Sony sensors. Making your other sensors may make some sense for short flange cameras, like the Leica M, but it would be hard to see any good reason to use such a sensor on a DSLR that typically has much lower beam angles than Leica M.

Best regards
Erik

Personally speaking, I have always liked Leica's approach to image quality over than the endless race for more megapixels, there will always be those that want more, those who would never need as many as 37mp and many in between. I have some of my absolute favourite shots from the 006 and 007 and at no point have I looked at any of these and thought they could have been better had they been shot on a sensor with more megapixels, I have 3 prints each at 1.2m wide from single files which look amazing.

I would love to get back in to an S at some point, more likely just for personal use, the relentless march of technology is not always positive for me, if for example 80mp turned out to be true, the benefits of the S as a really nice hand holdable camera with gorgeous lenses would likely be lost as the increased resolution would likely demand more tripod use, who knows.

If I was to make a wish list it would be for longer exposures and tilt shift lenses and that would likely be it, but then I'm not a current user so my view may be different if I was. Whatever, I'm sure a new body is on the cards, it will be really interesting to see what it's like.

Mat

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I don't think Leica uses Panasonic sensor. What I have heard is that the new 24x36 mm sensors are made by TowerJazz while CMOSIS designs are fabbed at STMicroelectronics.

It seems to me that Leica makes a lot of different niche cameras, they must spend a lot on RD.

And, just say, the Leica S-system got some new competition with the X1D and the GFX.

Best regards
Erik

Leica's teammate, Panasonic, is not so world-leading at sensor design. If Leica picked Sony, everything could have changed.

M-mount, R-mount, S-mount, SL-mount... Looks like it didn't work out quite well for them to keep making new mounts. It looks like M-mount is still their core business while most retailers refuse to stock S Typ 007.

 

[thrice]

Leica is working mainly with CMOSiS for their imaging chips

Leica don't use any CMOSIS chips except the S typ 007 and M Typ 240.

I don't think Leica uses Panasonic sensor. What I have heard is that the new 24x36 mm sensors are made by TowerJazz while CMOSIS designs are fabbed at STMicroelectronics.

TowerJazz is Panasonic.
https://tpsemico.com/

 

[thrice]

Would Leica be smart, they would go with Sony sensors. Making your other sensors may make some sense for short flange cameras, like the Leica M, but it would be hard to see any good reason to use such a sensor on a DSLR that typically has much lower beam angles than Leica M.

Hi Erik, great post, lots of good points.

The Sony 42MP BSI sensor with Kolari UT mod (~ same coverglass thickness as M digital cameras) shows higher sharpness, better DR and less crosstalk than the Kodak, CMOSIS or TowerJazz sensors. EDIT: provided you don't go over 4 seconds and the Sony star eater algorithm erases your fine detail!
So in theory it would be a smart decision for Leica to go with a Sony BSI sensor once they make one available outside of Sony.

Cheers,
Dan

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

This article demonstrates some of the benefits of reducing the pixel size:

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/i...g-and-supersampling-why-small-pixels-are-good

Best regards
Erik

Hi Erik, great post, lots of good points.

The Sony 42MP BSI sensor with Kolari UT mod (~ same coverglass thickness as M digital cameras) shows higher sharpness, better DR and less crosstalk than the Kodak, CMOSIS or TowerJazz sensors.
So in theory it would be a smart decision for Leica to go with a Sony BSI sensor once they make one available outside of Sony.

Cheers,
Dan

 

[tjv]

An 80mpx S would have me pretty interested. Not that I could convert that interest into a purchase for some time–still paying off my Credo!–but I have a strong preference for the OVF. My only real dislike of the S is the 3x2 ratio sensor, as I much prefer 4x3. Would the S lenses cover the Sony sensor if they chose to go that way instead of CMOSIS?

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Leica could crop the 44x33 mm sensor to 44x30 mm and thus giving very much similar image size to the S (Type 007).

They could absolutely go with 44x33 mm, a lens that is good at 54mm diameter will also do well at 55 mm diameter.

The alternative is really 100 MP at 44x33mm, as Sony says that those sensors will be available 2018. Fuji has stated that the GFX lenses are designed for 100 MP and that obviously also applies to the X1D. I would expect that the 100 MP sensor will have on sensor phase detection.

So, I am 100% confident that:

• Both Fuji and Hasselblad go 100 MP in 2018 or early 2019.
• The new 100 MP sensor will yield better AF and better fetaures.
• I am also confident that the 2018 sensors will offer better DR and tonality compared to 2014 generation 50 MP CMOS.

One reason for this expectation is that the CMOS sensor used in the Nikon D810 seems to be a major improvement over say the Pentax 645Z sensor. It has significantly higher full well capacity per pixel than the 50 MP 44x33 CMOS.

Now, all this is based on experimental data and not real photographs. On the other hand, experimental data is sort of reliable, while in real world photography there are umpteen uncontrolled variables. Just as an example, ISO ratings may vary a lot.

DPreview does a lot of good testing, and they have raw files to download. If you have raw files, you can use a tool like RawDigger to find out exposure differences.

Just as an instance, MFD is often tuned towards protecting highlights. MFD systems typicall underexpose quite a bit and brighten the image in postprocessing. Sony has taken a similar approach on the A7rII. Histograms, zebras, everything is on the conservative side.

Once you open a correctly exposed file in say Capture One it looks overexposed, unless you select 'linear response curve". Lightroom takes another approach, they normally apply some highlight recovery by default, so images that are slightly overexposed look to be very good.

So, both Capture One and Lightroom do apply "alternate facts". That is a good reason for a photographer to use RawDigger, to find out about "true facts". But, alternate facts can work well. As an example, Capture One gives up on DR in order of protecting highlights while Lightroom goes the other way around, applying highlight recovery by default.

The Lightroom defaults make better use of the dynamic range of the sensor. On the other hand, Capture One always opt for aggressive noise reduction by default.

Best regards
Erik

An 80mpx S would have me pretty interested. Not that I could convert that interest into a purchase for some time–still paying off my Credo!–but I have a strong preference for the OVF. My only real dislike of the S is the 3x2 ratio sensor, as I much prefer 4x3. Would the S lenses cover the Sony sensor if they chose to go that way instead of CMOSIS?

 

[msadat]

hasselblad already has a 100 meg camera on the h side, i wouldn't expect any new fuji gfx or x1d with 100 any time sooner than 2020. leica needs to rethink the whole s system and just adding more pixel might not solve the problem.


what i would like to see as a current active s user, is ibis and about 50 meg and lower body prices.

 

[Christopher]

As soon as the 100MP sensor from Sony is available both companies will use it. They certainly won't wait till 2020..

 

[msadat]

i agree that they will use it but release date will be much later

As soon as the 100MP sensor from Sony is available both companies will use it. They certainly won't wait till 2020..

 

[JohnBrew]

I hope Leica will continue the S line with an update. It is a terrific system but needs a better lens lineup (wide t/s and long zoom). For me it doesn't matter if it is 80mp or 100mp. Either way the files would tax my computer to the utmost. So I would have to factor in the price of a new computer along with the camera. OTOH, I'm pretty happy with what I have now...