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X1D: Where are we at?

gmfotografie

Well-known member
talking about the x2d with a news sony sensor... but this will require new lenses because of the bigger sensor format. do you really think there will be a 100MP handheld camera in the next 5 years?

are new lenses coming for the x1d in 2018 ?
 

Uaiomex

Member
I understand the sensor will be the same size but with twice the mp's.
Best
Eduardo



talking about the x2d with a news sony sensor... but this will require new lenses because of the bigger sensor format. do you really think there will be a 100MP handheld camera in the next 5 years?

are new lenses coming for the x1d in 2018 ?
 

gmfotografie

Well-known member
and the lenses will handle this resolution?

i think the X2D will take some time for releasing... before we have to wait on a new p1 product - p1 with sony are always faster ;-)
then might be a chance to see a newer version. actually i like this baby very much.
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
talking about the x2d with a news sony sensor... but this will require new lenses because of the bigger sensor format. do you really think there will be a 100MP handheld camera in the next 5 years?

are new lenses coming for the x1d in 2018 ?
Yes and yes.

New lenses are coming to the x1d in 2018 according to Hasselblad. We should see a 21mm, 65mm, 80mm, 135mm with 2x converter, and 35-75mm to supplement the 30,45,90, and 120 already available. They said the new lenses will be available in the first half of 2018, except for the 80mm which should be available second half. They announced that back in November of 2017.

The next gen X1D (which we anticipate will be called the X2D) will have a sensor that is the same size as the current X1D sensor (33mmx44mm), it will be 100mp instead of 50mp, and will have other improvements as well (back side illuminated instead of frontside illuminated). So no, we don’t expect an X camera with a larger sensor that would require a new line of lenses.
 

DB5

Member
It's nuts to me how long we waited for it to crawl from 22, 30, 40, 60MP backs. And now in one generation it's leaping from 50 to 100.
 

pflower

Member
It's nuts to me how long we waited for it to crawl from 22, 30, 40, 60MP backs. And now in one generation it's leaping from 50 to 100.
For myself, I can't see the overriding attraction of 100mp. I normally print A3+ and A2+ on my Epson 3880. I recently had some A1 prints from the X1D made and frankly they were great. In point of fact I can't imagine wanting or needing to print larger than A2 most of the time but this was a request. I can well see that the next generation of X cameras will improve on the first generation as regards hardware and functionality, but whilst I understand that some of the limitations of the X1D frustrate some photographers (EVF blackout, lack of live histogram etc. etc.) I can't see that for most of us an extra 50mp is going to make a significant difference on the same sensor size. I hired an H6D-100 for a weekend and made some prints as against the X1D - admittedly only at A3+ - and again I couldn't tell any difference in resolution or sharpness.

For me, at least, the current X1D does everything that I want from a camera. Yes I would like a live histogram in the EVF but I've learned to live without it and certainly won't be spending a lot more money just to get that.
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
For myself, I can't see the overriding attraction of 100mp. I normally print A3+ and A2+ on my Epson 3880. I recently had some A1 prints from the X1D made and frankly they were great. In point of fact I can't imagine wanting or needing to print larger than A2 most of the time but this was a request. I can well see that the next generation of X cameras will improve on the first generation as regards hardware and functionality, but whilst I understand that some of the limitations of the X1D frustrate some photographers (EVF blackout, lack of live histogram etc. etc.) I can't see that for most of us an extra 50mp is going to make a significant difference on the same sensor size. I hired an H6D-100 for a weekend and made some prints as against the X1D - admittedly only at A3+ - and again I couldn't tell any difference in resolution or sharpness.

For me, at least, the current X1D does everything that I want from a camera. Yes I would like a live histogram in the EVF but I've learned to live without it and certainly won't be spending a lot more money just to get that.
For me the attraction is cropping. I like panoramas and stitching isn’t always feasible....like yesterday when I was shooting through a hole in a chain link fence. For me, the attraction of a 100mp X2D vs a 50mp X1D is being able to generate a higher resolution pano from a crop of a single image. Of course there will be other improvements, but that is why I am after 100mp in the X2D. No clue if I’ll actually be able to afford one or if I go a different route further down the line with a 100mp system, but that’s why the resolution matters to me.
 

bab

Active member
Well had you of cropped 50% of both the 50 and 100mb images you would of then had 25 and 50mb images to make your prints from. My guess the difference would then be apparent. Many pro’s crop their images aggressively in most shooting situations. Having shot extensively both sensors in varying light situations I would recommend you go for the 100mb or if 150mb is available it’s maks sense to get the extra umph.

The 50 doesn’t have the push, pull or roll off of the 100 but I can see if it was your first time PP the images how you might not have gone far enough with them.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

The next generation sensor will be 44x33mm, 3.7 micron pixels and allow for 6FPS. How do we know? Because Sony has released the specs...

The lenses are with 100% probability designed to match the new sensor. So when the new sensor arrives you just simply get a much better camera. I would think that Hasselblad will make some improvements to the camera, possibly working with DJI. Hasselblad could not design an ASIC (Application Specific Integrated Circuit) for the X1D. Such a device is almost necessary to speed up functions and it may be an absolute necessity to handle 100 MP at 6FPS, but perhaps also handling things like AF.

According to Ming Thein's writing the 100 MP sensor will simply replace the 50 MP sensor. There will not be a generation II of the 50 MP sensor. It does not make sense to develop two new sensors instead of one.

My guess is that all vendors would like to be on the forefront with the new sensor. It would probably be possible to put it in the present cameras, but power consumption would probably go up and the new sensor may not be fully utilized.

So what are the probable improvements?

- Higher resolution a 41% improvement in resolvable detail
- Somewhat increased microcontrast at a given print size. The pixel smears the projected image. A 3.7 micron sensor smears it over 3.7 over 13 square microns while a 5.2 micron sensor smears it over 27 square microns, it is as simple as that. But, it may take a very good lens to show that difference.
- Aliasing will be reduced (*)
- 6FPS instead of 3FPS (or so)
- Probably faster AF, if the sensor is designed for EVF systems.
- Possibly support for PDAF, if the sensor is designed for EVF system.

The new sensor will allow for higher image quality, but it is up to the photographer to realize that image quality.

(*) Regarding aliasing, it depends on pixel spacing, pixel aperture and lens. If the lens does not project an image with contrast at the pixel level, no aliasing will be seen. Else, the image will contain aliases that may be obvious or not. A part of the DPReview test image makes aliasing very obvious:
Capture.jpg

You can see obvious aliasing in the Canon 5DsR with it's 4.2 micron pixels. The X1D, having 5.4 micron pixels, combined with a very good lens shows extensive aliasing. The Panasonic G9 with it's 3.3 micron sensor has barely any aliasing, but obviously cannot resolv as much details as the 50 MP sensors. The Phase One IQ3100 MP sensor has some aliasing but less than the other larger formats sensors. It has 4.6 micron pixels and it may be limited by lens and/or shooting technique.

So, I see that the next generation X?D camera will offer major benefits in many aspects. I would believe that we will see an upgraded body and that it may be available with both sensors for a while. With the 100 MP sensor being more expensive and the 50MP sensor more affordable.

This is not really speculation, more an engineering way of reading what is in the cards.

Best regards
Erik



and the lenses will handle this resolution?

i think the X2D will take some time for releasing... before we have to wait on a new p1 product - p1 with sony are always faster ;-)
then might be a chance to see a newer version. actually i like this baby very much.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
I believe everything written here but for me even the 24MP in MY SL are fine resolution wise FOR WHAT I DO.
Being able to move the focus point around in the x1d helps me to have to crop less than I had with the S (in images where I dont have the time to focus and recompose), I never felt limited with the 37MP of the S or the 50MP of the x1d.
I certainly would see benefits in the faster processing power of a new sensor. Startup time of the x1d still annoys me sometimes.
I hope that the higher resolution of the new camera will not eat up too much of the additional processing power.
I bet the x2d will be great, I hope I will be able to resist.
 

Uaiomex

Member
Someone you know that prints A0 with a 44X33 50mp sensor?
I'd loved to know if there's any concession to quality image wise.
TiA


For myself, I can't see the overriding attraction of 100mp. I normally print A3+ and A2+ on my Epson 3880. I recently had some A1 prints from the X1D made and frankly they were great. In point of fact I can't imagine wanting or needing to print larger than A2 most of the time but this was a request. I can well see that the next generation of X cameras will improve on the first generation as regards hardware and functionality, but whilst I understand that some of the limitations of the X1D frustrate some photographers (EVF blackout, lack of live histogram etc. etc.) I can't see that for most of us an extra 50mp is going to make a significant difference on the same sensor size. I hired an H6D-100 for a weekend and made some prints as against the X1D - admittedly only at A3+ - and again I couldn't tell any difference in resolution or sharpness.

For me, at least, the current X1D does everything that I want from a camera. Yes I would like a live histogram in the EVF but I've learned to live without it and certainly won't be spending a lot more money just to get that.
 

DB5

Member
More pixels isn't just for large prints.

More pixels gives better colour, better tonal and colour gradation, and as Erik has pointed out less moire and aliasing - all of this essentially leading to images looking less digital.

In practical terms, an example is Hair starts looking actually like hair. Those jagged lines and artefacts you see otherwise disappear.

Simply from a colour standpoint, more pixels means a more accurate bayer representation of available colours. And more pixels means you are filling the gaps with the more luminosity tonal range, so smoother and more rich gradations in colour and tone.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
More pixels isn't just for large prints.

More pixels gives better colour, better tonal and colour gradation, and as Erik has pointed out less moire and aliasing - all of this essentially leading to images looking less digital.

In practical terms, an example is Hair starts looking actually like hair. Those jagged lines and artefacts you see otherwise disappear.

Simply from a colour standpoint, more pixels means a more accurate bayer representation of available colours. And more pixels means you are filling the gaps with the more luminosity tonal range, so smoother and more rich gradations in colour and tone.
It also probably means I need a new Macbook for Euro 3000 to edit the files in a reasonable time ;)
But werent there are also advantages of larger pixels in regards of collecting light?
Anyways, for my part I havent experienced a massive increase in IQ going from 33 to 37 to 50 MP digital backs in regards of low light image quality.
I understand the moire and aliasing point if one shoots a lot of fabrics and fashion.
In the end I wouldnt mind 100MP, but there are other factors which are much more important to me.
 

DB5

Member
It also probably means I need a new Macbook for Euro 3000 to edit the files in a reasonable time ;)
But werent there are also advantages of larger pixels in regards of collecting light?
Anyways, for my part I havent experienced a massive increase in IQ going from 33 to 37 to 50 MP digital backs in regards of low light image quality.
I understand the moire and aliasing point if one shoots a lot of fabrics and fashion.
In the end I wouldnt mind 100MP, but there are other factors which are much more important to me.
Well it's any fine detail structures that aliasing appears. You get these everywhere. For example, if you shoot portraits then it means hair looks like hair. Bird feathers, foliage, flowers, artwork copying, etc etc etc. I don't see moire as much of an issue because it is fairly simple to remove. Aliasing isn't something you can easily retouch.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

I would say DB5 is right.

Larger pixels collecting more light is pretty much a myth. Essentially if you have two buckets containing 5 kg of water or one bucket containing 10 can carry the same amount of water. In old times there was probably a larger part of wiring in small pixels. But now days it probably matters very little. DR (Dynamic Range) is a bit affected by pixel size. But, it may seem that the IQ 3100 MP has larger DR than the IQ350, although having smaller pixels, just as an example.

This may be an image slightly overprocessed in Lightroom



The same image looks like this in RawDigger:



The second picture shows the real world mess of artefacts the raw converters need to handle, here the raw file was opened in RawDigger, Lightroom cannot really handle it, Capture One handles the most obvious artefacts better but still has plenty of artefacts.

The image here was shot on the P45+, with 6.8 micron pixels. The thin branches have sizes similar to the size of the pixels.

Many great images were shot on P45+ back, but I would suggest that finer pixels are better.

Regarding processing power, it is quite feasible that finer pixels would allow for use of less sophisticated algorithms, like using bilinear interpolation instead of bicubic. So, it is not sure that processing would slow down.

Best regards
Erik


Well it's any fine detail structures that aliasing appears. You get these everywhere. For example, if you shoot portraits then it means hair looks like hair. Bird feathers, foliage, flowers, artwork copying, etc etc etc. I don't see moire as much of an issue because it is fairly simple to remove. Aliasing isn't something you can easily retouch.
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
I had a couple of 30x40" prints done by WhiteWall from X1D files. I'm very pleased with the results. IMHO, IQ is excellent. While not quite A0, it's close.



Joe
Nice Joe! After shooting with the camera for almost a year I've got my first print from the X1D coming in next week (24x32" acrylic face mount) - that i'm pretty excited to put up on the wall.
-Todd
 

gmfotografie

Well-known member
we have released new Magazines for our customers which i tend to photography with my xpro2 or iphone - the pictures are just for instagram.

Really funny that the workflow with the X1D (50 MP!) is so easy that i also do those pictures now with this baby - absolut a waste such a resolution for this kind of photography but it makes a lot of fun - and yes the pictures are better ;-)

funny - never could imagine take such pictures so easily with a digital mediumformat -> future
 

Uaiomex

Member
Thanks Joe. Such a beautiful image at that dimension must be a real treat to anyone entering the room.
Can you talk a bit about how it was mounted?
Congrats
Eduardo

Edit: I guess it's the same you responded to Bob. ��


I had a couple of 30x40" prints done by WhiteWall from X1D files. I'm very pleased with the results. IMHO, IQ is excellent. While not quite A0, it's close.



Joe
 
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