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X1D: Where are we at?

S

sog1927

Member
jduncan said:
I am sorry to tell you that it will not.
It will need some kind of very good global shutter or some kind of new technology (we could use hss and merge or some other software trick).
So is not that it's impossible, but it will imply a limitation (like multiple flashes)
or a global shutter.

The other issue is why invest in the gimmick solution (not a global shutter) when we have super powerful led lights in our arsenal?

When MF chips with good Global Shutters arrive then we will have the possibility in a natural way.

Best regards,
Click to expand...
Actually, for my (admittedly somewhat odd) uses, it would be sufficient to be able to use flash with a shutter speed slower than the sensor readout time (0.3 seconds). This ought to be doable with a firmware change. As should HSS, for that matter.
 
J

jduncan

Active member
sog1927 said:
Actually, for my (admittedly somewhat odd) uses, it would be sufficient to be able to use flash with a shutter speed slower than the sensor readout time (0.3 seconds). This ought to be doable with a firmware change. As should HSS, for that matter.
Click to expand...



Hi,

Ok. So maybe the flash will even help.
I decided to clarify my statement: Normally the problem is that we will have an uneven exposure if we expose at the same time.
But if the exposure you are using is long enough to negate the differences then it could work. My only issue is that it will not work for too many cases and the backslash of people that do not read the manual will be too great and could even kill the X platform.

Here is an explanation of the issues with flash and shutters, its very basic, but it's also clear.
The author does a better job explaining that I did:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/5...lling-shutter-and-flash-what-you-need-to-know


Best regards,,
 
D

dancook

New member
I'm not sure how many people are still deciding upon the X1D

I recently bought it, and believe that it has/would/will become an extension of my being - *cough* - so I decided to keep a blog about my usage with it.

https://hasselbladx1d.wordpress.com/

I had a lot of questions in my head when considering the camera and many reviews seemed to counter each other, it was difficult to know who was right. Hopefully I'll be able to provide a balanced unbiased outlook.
 
S

sog1927

Member
jduncan said:
Hi,

Ok. So maybe the flash will even help.
I decided to clarify my statement: Normally the problem is that we will have an uneven exposure if we expose at the same time.
But if the exposure you are using is long enough to negate the differences then it could work. My only issue is that it will not work for too many cases and the backslash of people that do not read the manual will be too great and could even kill the X platform.

Here is an explanation of the issues with flash and shutters, its very basic, but it's also clear.
The author does a better job explaining that I did:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/5...lling-shutter-and-flash-what-you-need-to-know


Best regards,,
Click to expand...
That's solvable in firmware - just don't fire the flash if the shutter speed is too high ;-). It's just like a *really* slow moving focal plane shutter in that respect.
 
B

Boinger

Active member
jduncan said:
Hi,

Ok. So maybe the flash will even help.
I decided to clarify my statement: Normally the problem is that we will have an uneven exposure if we expose at the same time.
But if the exposure you are using is long enough to negate the differences then it could work. My only issue is that it will not work for too many cases and the backslash of people that do not read the manual will be too great and could even kill the X platform.

Here is an explanation of the issues with flash and shutters, its very basic, but it's also clear.
The author does a better job explaining that I did:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/5...lling-shutter-and-flash-what-you-need-to-know


Best regards,,
Click to expand...
sog1927 said:
That's solvable in firmware - just don't fire the flash if the shutter speed is too high ;-). It's just like a *really* slow moving focal plane shutter in that respect.
Click to expand...
I have actually experimented with flash and E shutter on my view camera.

I have successfully gotten it to work. Just takes some practice and timing.

I will try to explain my reasoning and method.

I set the shutter to 1-2 seconds, and trigger the flash manually using my trigger.

from top to bottom imagine the scan goes like this:

Code: 
0.0s                        1s
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 |||||||||||||||||
  |||||||||||||||||
   |||||||||||||||||
    |||||||||||||||||
     |||||||||||||||||
      |||||||||||||||||
       |||||||||||||||||
        |||||||||||||||||
         |||||||||||||||||
          |||||||||||||||||
           |||||||||||||||||
            |||||||||||||||||
             |||||||||||||||||
So you have to time the flash to trigger where start scan and the end scan overlap. Pretty easy to get the hang of it once you start timing. But as you can see even though the shutter is dragging. The moment at which you can trigger the flash is maybe 0.2 sec.

Now you would think why not just make the exposure 5 seconds and trigger then. I haven't played with it too much due to me trying to limit the ambient light at such an exposure.

I had to use a 3 stop ND as well to limit light.
 
B

Boinger

Active member
sog1927 said:
I realize that "open flash" would work.
Click to expand...
Hasselblad should really allow flash to trigger at that overlap period at certain speeds which I showed. They could probably make the shutter speed faster as well as they know exactly when the overlap is on the sensor with faster speeds.
 
S

sog1927

Member
Boinger said:
Now you would think why not just make the exposure 5 seconds and trigger then. I haven't played with it too much due to me trying to limit the ambient light at such an exposure.

I had to use a 3 stop ND as well to limit light.
Click to expand...
I should probably explain my rather atypical "use case" (as we say in the software business):

One of my guilty pleasures is high magnification macro photography (like 5x up to 40x). I started doing this when I got drafted to do the annual report and marketing photography for a former employer and found it an interesting technical and aesthetic challenge. I'm probably one of the few people on the planet who acquired a microscope shutter for the Hasselblad V series (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/801284793-USE/hasselblad_microscope_shutter.html) and I have an assortment of Zeiss Luminars and Leitz Photars with which to pursue this particular vice (in conjunction with a bellows and way more extension tubes than Hasselblad has ever recommended stacking).

Even the slightest vibration or other movement in this sort of setup is disastrous - I've found the use of flash to be pretty much essential. TTL flash is really handy, since it eliminates the need to correct for bellows factors. I don't really have to worry about ND filters (hard to attach to a Luminar anyway), since the bellows compensation is usually in the vicinity of 6 to 10 stops, but the ability to both sync and use TTL flash would be really convenient. Since the advent of the third-party V-series adapters for the X1D, I can essentially use my existing setup to do this digitally, but I can't use flash easily. Being able to sync and use TTL would also make focus stacking easier.
 
B

Boinger

Active member
sog1927 said:
I should probably explain my rather atypical "use case" (as we say in the software business):

One of my guilty pleasures is high magnification macro photography (like 5x up to 40x). I started doing this when I got drafted to do the annual report and marketing photography for a former employer and found it an interesting technical and aesthetic challenge. I'm probably one of the few people on the planet who acquired a microscope shutter for the Hasselblad V series (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/801284793-USE/hasselblad_microscope_shutter.html) and I have an assortment of Zeiss Luminars and Leitz Photars with which to pursue this particular vice (in conjunction with a bellows and way more extension tubes than Hasselblad has ever recommended stacking).

Even the slightest vibration or other movement in this sort of setup is disastrous - I've found the use of flash to be pretty much essential. TTL flash is really handy, since it eliminates the need to correct for bellows factors. I don't really have to worry about ND filters (hard to attach to a Luminar anyway), since the bellows compensation is usually in the vicinity of 6 to 10 stops, but the ability to both sync and use TTL flash would be really convenient. Since the advent of the third-party V-series adapters for the X1D, I can essentially use my existing setup to do this digitally, but I can't use flash easily. Being able to sync and use TTL would also make focus stacking easier.
Click to expand...
I see. I haven't really had much luck with ttl with my trigger even on normal lenses so I don't think that will come any time soon. You could try my method above and use flash on manual see how that works.

My use case is also macro / product photography but no where near as extreme as your case.
 
J

jduncan

Active member
Joe Colson said:
Lens firmware update this morning:



Joe
Click to expand...
Hi,

Now that is Swedish company working as clockwork: No delays and no production problems with the 21mm and quick fixes keep coming.

Still much to do, the X2D will be "the test by fire" moment, but I hope that:
1. They don't become so afraid of failure as to limit the innovation.
2. They deliver a good product from they one, and in sufficient quantity.

Best regards,
 
Last edited:
J

JeRuFo

Active member
jduncan said:
Hi,

Now that is Swedish company working as clockwork: No delays and no production problems with the 21mm and quick fixes keep coming.

Still much to do, the X2D will be "the test by fire" moment, but I hope that:
1. They don't become so afraid of failure as to limit the innovation.
2. They deliver a good product from they one, and in sufficient quantity.

Best regards,
Click to expand...
Yes, the xcd range is maturing very nicely, no doubt that the larger than expected sales have helped with the allocated resources too. Though they still have 3 lenses to bring out before the end of the month if they want to stick to their own lens roadmap.
 
Photon42

Photon42

Well-known member
jduncan said:
Hi,

Now that is Swedish company working as clockwork: No delays and no production problems with the 21mm and quick fixes keep coming.

Still much to do, the X2D will be "the test by fire" moment, but I hope that:
1. They don't become so afraid of failure as to limit the innovation.
2. They deliver a good product from they one, and in sufficient quantity.

Best regards,
Click to expand...
While I am with you on the quick turn-around time, I think the above mentioned defects should have been caught in test to begin with.
 
T

tcdeveau

Well-known member
FWIW I've noticed the shutter on the 21mm is quieter than the 30, 45, and 90mm. I think the 120mm is similar to the 21mm but I decided to skip the 120mm.
 
D

dancook

New member
tcdeveau said:
FWIW I've noticed the shutter on the 21mm is quieter than the 30, 45, and 90mm. I think the 120mm is similar to the 21mm but I decided to skip the 120mm.
Click to expand...
Nice, though i've still gone back to thinking between 30 vs 45

Live music, street photography, portraiture, city breaks...

I'm sure 30mm would work well.. i used 28mm in the Leica Q for so long
 
H

hcubell

Well-known member
tcdeveau said:
FWIW I've noticed the shutter on the 21mm is quieter than the 30, 45, and 90mm. I think the 120mm is similar to the 21mm but I decided to skip the 120mm.
Click to expand...
That is true of the XCD 120mm lens. The leaf shutter is much more damped than the 30, 45 and 90.
 
D

dancook

New member
I'm thinking that I might get a 135mm to complement the 90mm - instead of going wider, and concentrate this camera on portraiture.

Any idea when it might be released?

I know there is the 120mm, but I've read AF is slow and MF isn't going to be too quick either.
 
D

DB5

Member
Has anyone been able to try the Leica 75mm Noctilux on the X1D?

The 75mm Summilux works quite well.
 
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