Moving from film to medium format digital... The big decision.

[gswon]

Alright. I know these posts can be painful for you experienced souls, but here we go.

I am a film shooter (primarily 6x6, some 4x5 and 35mm), desiring to dip my toes into medium format digital. I have done a lot of research, have the money set aside in my bank account, and am ready to make the jump.

I primarily work in motion pictures (narrative and industrial video), and photography is largely a side-gig for me; that being said, I have worked as a photographer and assistant in professional portrait, architectural and wild life photography environments. I've generally done professional photo work using pro Nikon bodies, in the last couple years mostly D810s. I've always felt something missing in shooting digital in comparison to my film work, and I am interested to see if the move to a larger sensor can help me bridge the gap.

I know digital is never going to 'equal' film and is it's own beast. Still, I'm adequately interested in the possibilities of medium format digital that I think it is worth exploring seriously. I have two large personal projects upcoming in the next 6-8 months that I could choose to shoot either on film or digital; the cost of shooting film is likely to be as high as the cost as buying into medium format digital, so I am seeing this as an opportunity to give it a shot. If, at the end of the day, I don't feel I am gaining enough beyond the D810 I figure I can sell the equipment off for minimal loss.

I've settled on two possibilities that meet my budgetary requirements - either buying into the Hasselblad H system with either an H3D-50/60 or H4D-50/60, or buying into Pentax with a 645z. The used market on the old CCD 'Blad's has finally sunk to the point where it isn't too different from going with a CMOS Pentax. Here are my main requirements:

+Highest possible color fidelity at base ISO (high ISO is nice, but beyond 400-800 isn't really necessary)
+Speed of usability on a tripod/monopod in a rough field environment.
+Best tonal gradation when converted to B+W (this is what I am most skeptical of in digital... I've considered getting a Monochrom but a rangefinder is just too limiting in other ways).
+Best lens ecosystem for long term work.

I rarely use strobes, so leaf vs. focal plane shutter doesn't matter much to me. Max shutter of 1/800 is fine for my purposes.
I travel a lot and my gear goes in and out of bags a ton, so robustness of equipment IS important to me.
I am often shooting in remote areas, so the ability to own a back-up is more important than ease of service.

The main thing attracting me towards the Hasselblad cameras is the larger sensor size and a more desirable (but expensive) lens ecosystem. I am a little charmed by the CCD base as well, but I suspect the difference is marginal. Use of a film back on some models would be ideal, but the H4X's of the world seem harder to come by.
The main thing attracting me to Pentax is that I suspect the system is more robust... and I could buy a 645N to shoot film. Cheaper to buy a second body if needed.

My starting budget of this is south of $5k. Happy to invest more down the road if the gear is working for me.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts... My desires shift day-by-day. I've handled both systems and I have to confess the Hasselblad feels better in hand, but I don't know if that is just Swedish pixie dust.

 

[DougDolde]

Here's an Hasselblad H4D-50 on keh.com for just over 5K. Seems reasonable for 50 megapixel back and body, finder

https://www.keh.com/shop/h4d-50-50m-p-complete-1.html

You could find for less on Ebay but KEH is very good and backs their stuff up. No hassle returns.

 

[jdphoto]

I'd consider the Mamiya RZ Pro II, as it can shoot both film and digital with one body and proper adapter. I use a Polaroid back for previews and just plain fun. Lenses are outstanding, APO - like performance on some. I've also used and enjoyed the Hasselblad H1 / H2 series that can both take film or digital backs. I've shot with an H4d, but that camera was not as reliable as the film/digital versions. Any "V" series film Hasselblad's can be adapted for digital and fat pixel backs are in high demand. They just soak up color! Plus, if you need to incorporate film, it's as easy as changing backs. I shoot primarily film and am considering the Fuji GFX MFD. I can get shallow DOF with ND's as that's my only gripe being only 1/125th flash sync, but big beautiful MFD sensor for around $7800 with lens. The Fuji's (GFX, XT2) probably have the most rugged construction for digital Both lenses and body are weather resistant and rated to 14f. The xt2 even has cool mods like an underwater housing and a new flash. Great choices with reasonable prices. Good luck.

 

[jerome_m]

Use of a film back on some models would be ideal, but the H4X's of the world seem harder to come by.

You could get an old H1 with a film back for cheap and use that instead of the film back. You would still use the same lenses.

 

[fotografz]

I worked with the H system from a H2D/22 through a H4D/60 (including the 1.1X backs and the 1.3X backs like the crop frame 31 and 40 versions, and a 39 Multi-Shot on a H2F. In short I used every body/back combo except the 50 back ... but my friend and shooting partner used a H4D/50, so I know it fairly well.

With the H3D-II camera Hasselblad went to a fully integrated DSLR system with each component custom assembled and calibrated, so you no longer could use the H film backs. If you want to be able to use a film back interchangeably, you'd need a H1, H2, H2X or a H3D (which only goes up to a 39 meg back).

Also with the H3D-II Hasselblad provided firmware upgrade via Phocus that increased the max ISO from 400 to 800 ... more importantly for you, it slightly improved the base ISO-50.

The improvements in the H3D-II over all previous models was a larger, better TFT screen; the employment of a heat-sink that helped improve image quality, and they fixed the CF door and FW800 port which previously had issues.

The H3D-II/50 was introduced later in the lifecycle of the H3D-II ... it was a newer design kodak sensor which was also faster shooting than the 39.

The H4D refined the system and the major added feature was True Focus and expansion to a H4D/40 1.3X crop camera to replace the H3D-II/31. The 50 back was carried over and Hasselblad was slow getting the 60 back to market. The 60 back was suppose to be able to take a clip on battery to use it on a View Camera ... by the time that was realized (I THINK it was realized after the H5 was introduced) I was already out of the Hasselblad system.

If I recall correctly, the H4D/60 back was made by Dalsa. The 50 back was Kodak. The 50 was better at longer exposures. Subjectively, I found the 60 back's colors more filmic and the B&W conversions to be more pleasing, which may better fit your aesthetic

I think the 60 back would also separate itself from your Nikon more definitively.

HC lenses: If you get a 1.1X back I'd avoid the HCD lenses. Some H lenses were designed for film bodies and Hasselblad has improved some of their lenses to perform better on the higher meg digital backs. The very best one is the HC/50-II; followed by the 150N and newer 120-II Macro.

The H system is not only nice in hand, it's ergonomics have been refined over its' long life to be very easy to use and intuitive to operate. I got to the point that I could operate the shooting controls without taking the camera from my eye.

- Marc

 

[Kolor-Pikker]

I'll chip in as well, seeing as I own a 645Z and have at least used some digital back cameras on a few occasions. In terms of robustness, pretty much nothing comes close to the Z, which you can shoot with in torrential rain if you have a sealed lens and it doesn't become hopelessly splattered with drops. The Leica S shares this quality but of course it's much more pricy. The paint job isn't that great and will wear with just regular use, but the camera will still take any knocks you send it's way just fine.

In term of image quality I think it will be more similar to the D810 than different, since the sensor is based on the same underlying technology, you'll get the benefit of more pixels at a lower density, but I imagine it'll handle similarly. In this respect the Hasselblads might have something new for you, as you can go bigger in sensor size with CCDs. They're not as flexible in post as 15-stop CMOS files, but look very nice when you nail the exposure.

Lens-wise, the Z has only around 4 "new" lenses, with only some of them being truly exceptional. This is currently the biggest weakness of the system and until Ricoh/Pentax can sort out their priorities with regards as to which line they want to focus on (APS-C, FF, or MF), Hasselblad does have the advantage here. However, if future Pentax lenses are as good as the last few, they'll really shake things up in the MF market.

In general I think you'll basically find the 645Z as being an over-sized, slower D810, which is a good thing as it's a faster and more nimble camera than any digital back, but it also might not be the "experience" you're looking for if you're going for the more methodical way of shooting. For me, having 16x live view magnification on a flip screen beats any other factors.

 

[erlingmm]

Sounds like a Leica S 006 would suit you well. Prices have come down - one was announced on the Leica Forum for 4.500, gone. Not a single one on eBay right now !

 

[RobbieAB]

I am a film shooter (primarily 6x6, some 4x5 and 35mm), desiring to dip my toes into medium format digital. I have done a lot of research, have the money set aside in my bank account, and am ready to make the jump.

You shoot medium format film? Which system are you using for that? Do you have investment here that could be leveraged by your digital choice?

Is there a reason you are rejecting the Phase One/Mamiya system? It's conspicuous by it's absence from your options list. The reasons for exclusion may offer some insight.

My suspicion would be that the Pentax will mostly feel like a DSLR upsized, but is likely to be the most robust option. However, the Hasselblad system offers the option of "full frame" 645 sensors. If you are chasing sensor size, this is a fairly obvious choice.

Are you viewing this as a one time purchase, or are you viewing it as a "buy into the system"?

 

[gswon]

You shoot medium format film? Which system are you using for that? Do you have investment here that could be leveraged by your digital choice?

Is there a reason you are rejecting the Phase One/Mamiya system? It's conspicuous by it's absence from your options list. The reasons for exclusion may offer some insight.

My suspicion would be that the Pentax will mostly feel like a DSLR upsized, but is likely to be the most robust option. However, the Hasselblad system offers the option of "full frame" 645 sensors. If you are chasing sensor size, this is a fairly obvious choice.

Are you viewing this as a one time purchase, or are you viewing it as a "buy into the system"?

Hi Robbie (and everyone else)

Thanks for all your thoughts!

If the camera can meet my needs, I'd like to buy into a system for long term use.

I currently shoot Hasselblad 500's (and a Rolleiflex 2.8D for casual travel). Which I know makes a V-series back the obvious answer to me, but demand on them as such that it is currently cheaper to get an H system body+back (and often 80 2.8) than the equivalent generation V mount back. Furthermore, shooting 645 on a 500 series looks frustrating - it seems it would destroy the ergonomics of the system, and I've read many reports that critical focus on a digital back is difficult to achieve. I have probably $2-3k of V equipment which I would consider selling if I loved the new system (and it was fully film capable). But it's hard to imagine giving it up...

I looked seriously at PhaseOne, but concluded that they offered little (for my purposes) beyond Hasselblad, but at a higher cost and with inferior bodies. I do know the Mamiya glass is great and affordable (less so the modern Schneider offerings) so it is compelling. Happy to be convinced otherwise!

The Leica 006 looks beautiful, but I had nicked it off the list as being too similar to the Pentax at a much higher price point (esp for the lenses). That being said, I know that Leica gear tends to hold its value so I suppose the risk isn't huge. If I could afford it, the standard set of 35/70/120 would be exactly what I need. I prefer 4:3 to 3:2, but maybe I should put this back in the mix... but I am trying to get this list down to one camera, not continue to expand it!

 

[jdphoto]

Here's an Hasselblad H4D-50 on keh.com for just over 5K. Seems reasonable for 50 megapixel back and body, finder

https://www.keh.com/shop/h4d-50-50m-p-complete-1.html

You could find for less on Ebay but KEH is very good and backs their stuff up. No hassle returns.

And they're at a distance that's considered "safe"

 

[jdphoto]

Sounds like a Leica S 006 would suit you well. Prices have come down - one was announced on the Leica Forum for 4.500, gone. Not a single one on eBay right now !

Probably cause they're in Wetzlar

 

[RobbieAB]

I looked seriously at PhaseOne, but concluded that they offered little (for my purposes) beyond Hasselblad, but at a higher cost and with inferior bodies. I do know the Mamiya glass is great and affordable (less so the modern Schneider offerings) so it is compelling. Happy to be convinced otherwise!

This is just a fast "throw together" based on checking a couple of sources...

It should be possible to pick up a P65+ back for 5-6k if not less, and a quick check of ebay indicates it should be possible to pick up a Mamiya 645 AFD with an 80mm lens and a film back for under 1k.

That would give you a 60MPixel "full-frame" 645 sensor, body and film back. You wouldn't be able to use the leaf shutter lenses on that body, and that digital back wouldn't fit to a Phase One XF body, but those factors bring the pricing down. If maintaining the ability to add use a film back is something you want, the XF body isn't a high priority anyway. If leaf shutter support is something you want (e.g. for the latest and greatest $5k+ lenses) the DF(+) body would offer that, and still be compatible with the film backs. Mamiya 645AF lenses appear to be available for reasonable prices used.

I don't really know your budget as I don't follow Hasselblad pricing, but that's a rough price up.

 

[kdphotography]

In true form to Dante's forum: Dante says you need to increase your budget. Doing so will allow you to acquire that medium format digital system that will more aptly distinguish itself from film. I also would not be so quick to exclude Phase One from consideration. Phase XF and IQ series MFDB. And leave the film to your Hasselblad 500 series bodies. That gives you distinct systems and distinctly different looks. Frankly, in a medium format digital world, you severely limit yourself (and the system's capabilities) by restricting the digital system to a film world.

Welcome to Dante's Inferno. C'mon in...the water's fine.... :ROTFL:

Ken

 

[RobbieAB]

In true form to Dante's forum: Dante says you need to increase your budget. Doing so will allow you to acquire that medium format digital system that will more aptly distinguish itself from film. I also would not be so quick to exclude Phase One from consideration. Phase XF and IQ series MFDB. And leave the film to your Hasselblad 500 series bodies. That gives you distinct systems and distinctly different looks. Frankly, in a medium format digital world, you severely limit yourself (and the system's capabilities) by restricting the digital system to a film world.

Welcome to Dante's Inferno. C'mon in...the water's fine.... :ROTFL:

Ken

I agree, an XF+IQ would be a "better digital system". However, my price watching is showing a 3-4k price increase going from a P65+ to an IQ160. An XF body would also be a lot more expensive to acquire.

If OP is buying into the system, they can later add and replace components as they sees the direction their MFD photography is taking. This would also feed into their desire for a back-up: XF+IQ3 series is obviously the "top end" option for P1, but it's more expensive to carry back up components as P series backs are ruled out, as are the older bodies.

I would also say it is worth considering picking up the AF or DF body with film backs if OP does take the XF+IQ route. It would allow the film system to share lenses with the digital system, which is something the budget side of it would like, especially if buying into the top-end glass.

No one is disputing that the current line up of models are amazing and perform better than the old ones, I am just outlining a basic P1 system that should meet OPs requirements on a budget as a start point into the P1 ecosystem. Obviously if OP wants/is able to spend more, better components are available.

 

[gswon]

I know there are advantages to the newer bodies... but my budgetary constraints are pretty firm to start and I'd rather dip my toes in with an older, already deprecated body and see if it is to my taste. If so, I am sure the older bodies will meet the bulk of my needs (I am one who believes camera advancements are largely over touted- I don't need to shoot in the dark or have a million bells and whistles, just great image quality) and I can invest in glass over time.

In my prowling, P65+'s backs look to be going for more than H4D-60s. I missed a body+back H4d-60 that went for just north of $4k on ebay the other day (I should have been bold! Although I am always hesitant to buy from Ebay on this kind of purchase...). The cost of the XF+IQ backs is out of my league.

One of the big appeals of Pentax to me is that I can get a strong system (with say a 35mm 3.5, 75 2.8 and 120 f4) for the cost of a body and lens in another system. If I knew they'd be moving to a 1.1x sensor in the next body I'd be more tempted to go that route - but the appeal of the Hasselblad (or Phase) is that I can start with the sensor size I'd prefer off the bat. And I suspect (incorrectly?) higher levels of performance from the lenses.

GFX and X1D don't appeal to me for numerous reasons, but I am very glad that they seem to be pulling prices down on the MF SLRs!

 

[epforever]

A few notes here for the OP:

You are correct that using the V system with a digital back has some difficulties. I did this before moving to the H system. It is harder to nail exact focus in the smaller frame (37x49 is noticeably smaller than 56x56). There can also be misfires (you are relying on the lens's PC sync terminal to fire the back on most backs), which are annoying, to put it mildly.

I've been using the H system for many years and am very happy with it. Autofocus works well and is a gift. TrueFocus on the H4D series works great, as advertised.

I had an H3DII-39 and now have an H5D-50 (CCD). Both great sensors. Be aware that beyond ISO 200, they start to get a bit grainy overall and can get a bit chunky in the shadows. But the grain feels like film grain, especially on the 50MP sensor. I used the H4D-60 on a shoot at one point, and I thought its high-ISO performance (400 and 800) was noticeably worse than the 39 and 50 sensors.

In my experience the H lenses are very good. Sharp, ergonomic, easily provide the resolution needed for the sensors. Including the HCD lenses. And if you watch the forums, H bodies and lenses regularly come up at good prices.

 

[RobbieAB]

In my prowling, P65+'s backs look to be going for more than H4D-60s. I missed a body+back H4d-60 that went for just north of $4k on ebay the other day (I should have been bold! Although I am always hesitant to buy from Ebay on this kind of purchase...). The cost of the XF+IQ backs is out of my league.

I suspect that price is going to be hard to beat.

The only thing to be wary of, with ebay prices, is that there is a risk of "the one shockingly good deal" syndrome. Though not as cheap, I find a better reference for pricing is what the dealers are charging for used gear. Once I have the price reference, I look for the bargains on ebay!

 

[DougDolde]

My advice is DON'T DO IT. Spend your five grand on a Nikon D810 and a 24-70mm lens

Or if you can wait, the coming replacement for the D810

 

[jdphoto]

In true form to Dante's forum: Dante says you need to increase your budget. Doing so will allow you to acquire that medium format digital system that will more aptly distinguish itself from film. I also would not be so quick to exclude Phase One from consideration. Phase XF and IQ series MFDB. And leave the film to your Hasselblad 500 series bodies. That gives you distinct systems and distinctly different looks. Frankly, in a medium format digital world, you severely limit yourself (and the system's capabilities) by restricting the digital system to a film world.

Welcome to Dante's Inferno. C'mon in...the water's fine.... :ROTFL:

Ken

The depreciation of MFD will be breathtaking. Planned obsolescence of MFD will be surprising. The ability to shoot with both film and digital with the H1/H2 series will be liberating. The initial cost of investment in the H1/H2 series will be comforting. The resultant pictures will astounding!

 

[gswon]

My advice is DON'T DO IT. Spend your five grand on a Nikon D810 and a 24-70mm lens

Or if you can wait, the coming replacement for the D810

Hey Doug,

I have thought about just holding out for a D820/850/whatever. Or giving the Pentax K1 + Pixel shift a shot.

But something about the big sensor keeps pulling me back in.

Probably I should just say screw it and spend the money on film :toocool: