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Thread: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

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    Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Initial articles on the announcements from September 12 by Phase One:

    Phase One IQ3 100 Trichromatic by Dave Gallagher:

    "I have anticipated hearing some extreme reactions to today’s announcements from Phase One. On the surface it might be hard to understand why subtle changes to a filter pattern on a sensor can really matter. And to these questions let me pose my own.... "

    https://captureintegration.com/top-t...announcements/


    Phase One XF feature Update #4 by Brad Kaye:

    "Once again, through this newest firmware offering Phase One has vastly improved the capabilities of the XF with new features and refinements. Feature Update #4 works with either the HAP-1 or HAP-2 autofocus sensor, and ... "

    https://captureintegration.com/top-1...-hap-2-update/


    More to come - due to the remnants of Hurricane Irma coming through Atlanta, we're slowly getting up to speed with additional testing and thoughts.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Thanks for the articles - note that the focus trim targets are already downloadable and the ZIP comes with ones for different paper sizes:
    https://www.phaseone.com/en/SupportM...anuals_XF.aspx

    For some reason it's on the Manuals page and not the Downloads page.
    E.J. Peiker
    www.EJPhoto.com

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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Quote Originally Posted by ejpeiker View Post
    Thanks for the articles - note that the focus trim targets are already downloadable and the ZIP comes with ones for different paper sizes:
    https://www.phaseone.com/en/SupportM...anuals_XF.aspx

    For some reason it's on the Manuals page and not the Downloads page.

    Thanks EJ.

    I'm still checking to see if these can be ordered separately. It's a convenience to print, but still nice to have the option to order one.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Initial articles on the announcements from September 12 by Phase One:

    Phase One IQ3 100 Trichromatic by Dave Gallagher:

    "I have anticipated hearing some extreme reactions to today’s announcements from Phase One. On the surface it might be hard to understand why subtle changes to a filter pattern on a sensor can really matter. And to these questions let me pose my own.... "

    https://captureintegration.com/top-t...announcements/


    Phase One XF feature Update #4 by Brad Kaye:

    "Once again, through this newest firmware offering Phase One has vastly improved the capabilities of the XF with new features and refinements. Feature Update #4 works with either the HAP-1 or HAP-2 autofocus sensor, and ... "

    https://captureintegration.com/top-1...-hap-2-update/


    More to come - due to the remnants of Hurricane Irma coming through Atlanta, we're slowly getting up to speed with additional testing and thoughts.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Hey Steve!

    In your article you write:
    "Based on how far you turn right or left or tilt up or down in the first capture, the camera will at –the moment of focus– dial in a predicted offset value that keeps the subject in focus when you recompose to the same location."

    I don't really understand this premise, it has to make a prediction based on previous recomposition all the time? This would render a pretty severe percentage drop in hit rates during a portrait session unless you always do the same movement...?

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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeJ View Post
    Hey Steve!

    In your article you write:
    "Based on how far you turn right or left or tilt up or down in the first capture, the camera will at –the moment of focus– dial in a predicted offset value that keeps the subject in focus when you recompose to the same location."

    I don't really understand this premise, it has to make a prediction based on previous recomposition all the time? This would render a pretty severe percentage drop in hit rates during a portrait session unless you always do the same movement...?

    What Brad has not yet detailed in that post is the way that the Phase One AFr works - which could be quite different than how Hasselblad's True Focus works - (as alluded to by JDuncan in a post on another thread).

    Essentially, the AFr mode is employing predictive intelligence based on learned behavior from how the user moves. Your first shot, you may hear a "meh" audible feedback from the XF. What it is saying, that one is maybe not so on target. But the second and successive shots will learn how you're moving and adjust and dial in based on that learned intelligence.

    It sounds improbable, but so far in our testing, seems to work extremely well. So, for a given set of shots, you'd drop a first shot to let the camera know the general way you're moving. When you would change your movement or angle dramatically to another set of shots, the same thing, you'd inform the AFr what you're doing (roughly) with the first shot, and it will get the hang if it quite quickly.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    What Brad has not yet detailed in that post is the way that the Phase One AFr works - which could be quite different than how Hasselblad's True Focus works - (as alluded to by JDuncan in a post on another thread).

    Essentially, the AFr mode is employing predictive intelligence based on learned behavior from how the user moves. Your first shot, you may hear a "meh" audible feedback from the XF. What it is saying, that one is maybe not so on target. But the second and successive shots will learn how you're moving and adjust and dial in based on that learned intelligence.

    It sounds improbable, but so far in our testing, seems to work extremely well. So, for a given set of shots, you'd drop a first shot to let the camera know the general way you're moving. When you would change your movement or angle dramatically to another set of shots, the same thing, you'd inform the AFr what you're doing (roughly) with the first shot, and it will get the hang if it quite quickly.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Sounds like a really really awkward way of getting around Hasselblad's patent. Why give a "meh" result the first time, that shot could be the one...

    Edit: Sorry for sounding like a debbie downer. I'm still going to give it a go and I hope it'll work fantastic =)

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    Senior Member DougDolde's Avatar
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    I can see a difference in the samples Dave posted with the slider but it's so subtle and hard to tell which is correct (or better) from the subject used.

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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeJ View Post
    Sounds like a really really awkward way of getting around Hasselblad's patent. Why give a "meh" result the first time, that shot could be the one...

    Edit: Sorry for sounding like a debbie downer. I'm still going to give it a go and I hope it'll work fantastic =)
    Not that it really matters for the new Phase features, but FWIW I don't think Hasselblad has a patent on True Focus. I didn't do an exhaustive search, but last I checked they had a patent application for the technology that was abandoned a few years ago, meaning the application never matured into an issued patent. I posted about it more in detail somewhere in another thread a few months ago (I draft and prosecute patents for a living). The tech could be buried in another one of their patents somewhere, but the search I did in the US and internationally didn't give me that indication. Just because manufacturer A has a product with a feature that manufacturer B's product[s] lack doesn't mean that manufacturer A has a patent on that feature. Someone else could still have a patent on the tech though, and Hasselblad could merely be licensing it from someone else.

    Nice job Phase with the new Trichromatic and XF feature update
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeJ View Post
    Sounds like a really really awkward way of getting around Hasselblad's patent. Why give a "meh" result the first time, that shot could be the one...

    Edit: Sorry for sounding like a debbie downer. I'm still going to give it a go and I hope it'll work fantastic =)

    I understand, but at this point I don't see it as a way to get around a patent. I see it as potentially a better method that may prove to be more flexible in how it adjusts to re-compose movements. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. It's also nice that Phase One users weren't required to pay for a camera upgrade, as Hasselblad users did, to gain the feature benefit.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Hi Steve,

    My take is that the present information is full of hyperbols and no content. Very clearly, making the CFA design more orthogonal, that is having less overlap may give better color separation at some colors, like a Velvia look. A overlap free CFA would not be able to reproduce significant part of the color spectrum. So, what P1 describes is a very bad CFA design.

    They also offer a an image to download, a totally unusable image.

    So info is probably misleading... It can be a great design, but there is no relevant information, no relevant images. Just a lot of marketing hyperbols.

    I am also a bit opposed to claims about highlight recovery in MFD.

    • For one thing, it contradicts imaging science
    • I also made some fairly detailed comparison between cameras available to me and found no visible or measurable difference in highlight reproduction between 2006 generation CCD and 2015 generation CMOS.
    • Imaging science says no difference and there is no difference, in higlights.
    • In shadows, the 2015 generation CMOS wins.


    Higlights:


    Shadows:


    Regarding colour fringing, any colour fringing would probably result from weak IR or UV suppression combined with poor correction of the secondary spectrum outside the visual range. Lloyd Chambers has illustrated this for Leica S-lenses, but I have seen it demonstrated many times. Both CCD and CMOS are monochromatic devices, with the difference being in the readout method. The photodiode is not different between the different devices.

    It is feasible that CCD designs for MFD would have less crosstalk than some CMOS designs for DSLRs. In that sense the old Kodak based CCDs were said to be very good.

    Please don't misunderstand me, the Thricromatic may be great, it is just that the information coming from P1 is much like Pyongyang information or alternate facts and that would be a consideration if you are selling a 45k$US system.


    Best regards
    Erik
    Last edited by ErikKaffehr; 1 Week Ago at 12:31.

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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    My take after looking at everything available so far is that for what I use the XF for, landscapes, there is likely little to be gained from the refined color array filter since colors are generally always modified to some extent anyway, at least not enough of a change to justify the likely cost of an upgrade from the current IQ3100. On the other hand, a base ISO of 32 is VERY appealing, but then I have to ask myself if 1/3 of a stop is really worth whatever the cost is too unless it's low single digit thousands of dollars for the upgrade which I doubt. IF I were ordering a new IQ I would certainly get this new version but replacing an existing one - probably not very cost effective.

    The FW release on the other hand, I am putting to use already!
    E.J. Peiker
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Hi EJ,

    A low base ISO would be consistent with less permissive filters in the CFA. Or, that could be like enhanced full well capacity.

    In general, photographic devices use the linear part of the photon transfer curve and clip when leaving the linear part. It has been noted that the Nikon D810 seems to have a higher FWC (Full Well Capacity) than other sensors of similar generation, thus yielding less shoot noise and a lower measured base ISO. There has been some speculation that this may be enabled by linearisation of the pixel signal before writing to raw.

    Whatever trick Nikon has used to reduce base ISO, Phase One could also do. There are three ways to do it. Increasing FWC, making CFA denser or reducing the pixel aperture. Increasing FWC is the most difficult path.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi Steve,

    My take is that the present information is full of hyperbols and no content. Very clearly, making the CFA design more orthogonal, that is having less overlap may give better color separation at some colors, like a Velvia look. A overlap free CFA would not be able to reproduce significant part of the color spectrum. So, what P1 describes is a very bad CFA design.

    They also offer a an image to download, a totally unusable image.

    So info is probably misleading... It can be a great design, but there is no relevant information, no relevant images. Just a lot of marketing hyperbols.

    I am also a bit opposed to claims about highlight recovery in MFD.

    • For one thing, it contradicts imaging science
    • I also made some fairly detailed comparison between cameras available to me and found no visible or measurable difference in highlight reproduction between 2006 generation CCD and 2015 generation CMOS.
    • Imaging science says no difference and there is no difference, in higlights.
    • In shadows, the 2015 generation CMOS wins.


    Higlights:


    Shadows:


    Regarding colour fringing, any colour fringing would probably result from weak IR or UV suppression combined by poor correction of the secondary spectrum outside the visual range. Lloyd Chambers has illustrated this for Leica S-lenses, but I have seen it demonstrated many times. Both CCD and CMOS are monochromatic devices, with the difference being in the readout method. The photodiode is not different between the different devices.

    It is feasible that CCD designs for MFD would have less crosstalk than some CMOS designs for DSLRs. In that sense the old Kodak based CCDs were said to be very good.

    Please don't misunderstand me, the Thricromatic may be great, it is just that the information coming from P1 is much like Pyongyang information or alternate facts and that would be a consideration if you are selling a 45k$US system.


    Best regards
    Erik

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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Yeah I understand the reasons why it would be a lower ISO - my guess is just that the filter array, due to not allowing as much color overlap, just lets a little less light through to the pixel wells. For me it just allows a slower shutter speed but it's probably not that big of a deal since I use ND's a lot anyway and the change isn't enough to not do that.
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    So ISO 35 is something new? My IQ180 has it

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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Quote Originally Posted by DougDolde View Post
    So ISO 35 is something new? My IQ180 has it
    The CMOS backs are ISO 50 for the 100mp and ISO 100 for the 50mp
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi Steve,

    My take is that the present information is full of hyperbols and no content. Very clearly, making the CFA design more orthogonal, that is having less overlap may give better color separation at some colors, like a Velvia look. A overlap free CFA would not be able to reproduce significant part of the color spectrum. So, what P1 describes is a very bad CFA design.

    They also offer a an image to download, a totally unusable image.

    So info is probably misleading... It can be a great design, but there is no relevant information, no relevant images. Just a lot of marketing hyperbols.

    I am also a bit opposed to claims about highlight recovery in MFD.

    • For one thing, it contradicts imaging science
    • I also made some fairly detailed comparison between cameras available to me and found no visible or measurable difference in highlight reproduction between 2006 generation CCD and 2015 generation CMOS.
    • Imaging science says no difference and there is no difference, in higlights.
    • In shadows, the 2015 generation CMOS wins.


    Higlights:


    Shadows:


    Regarding colour fringing, any colour fringing would probably result from weak IR or UV suppression combined with poor correction of the secondary spectrum outside the visual range. Lloyd Chambers has illustrated this for Leica S-lenses, but I have seen it demonstrated many times. Both CCD and CMOS are monochromatic devices, with the difference being in the readout method. The photodiode is not different between the different devices.

    It is feasible that CCD designs for MFD would have less crosstalk than some CMOS designs for DSLRs. In that sense the old Kodak based CCDs were said to be very good.

    Please don't misunderstand me, the Thricromatic may be great, it is just that the information coming from P1 is much like Pyongyang information or alternate facts and that would be a consideration if you are selling a 45k$US system.


    Best regards
    Erik

    Hi Erick - I greatly respect the advanced minds on the forum, the cool thing about GetDPI is the varied backgrounds of expertise from so many contributors. I am not a scientist nor an engineer, but I do take a scientific approach from the standpoint of conducting the experiment to prove the theory. And my feeling so far from our time spent with the IQ3 100 Trichromatic is that I'm seeing the color improvement and I am not - so far - seeing colors that are un-represented vs previous models. Perhaps what Phase One is describing is one part of the equation.

    At any rate, I'm not going to defend the information coming from Phase One. While we love the products Phase One creates, we acknowledge the messaging, but prefer to put the product to the test in the real world and arrive at our own conclusions to advise our clients. (and we've always done this from Day One).

    I agree that highlight recovery, and/or the treatment of highlights (highlight recovery may be an inaccurate way to describe it) has not been the most dramatic aspect of image quality improvements over the years. But we'll - again - conduct our real world experiments and hope that they don't frustrate too many of the prevailing theories (though it is certainly a possibility).


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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Quote Originally Posted by ejpeiker View Post
    The CMOS backs are ISO 50 for the 100mp and ISO 100 for the 50mp

    Excepting the IQ3 100 Trichromatic, which has a base of ISO 35.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    I can't speak to the trichromatic 100 and highlight
    recovery but the base IQ100 is amazing in regards to this. It has taken time to realize this but it has totally changed the way I shoot with this back.

    It's unlike any other CMOS chip I have used.

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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Excepting the IQ3 100 Trichromatic, which has a base of ISO 35.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    That was the premise of the post, the person I was responding to asked why we think ISO 35 is something new....
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    I want real-world comparison of the landscape pictures. Fall color will be a perfect.
    As EJ mentioned, it will be a very hard sell to the previous owners of the IQ3100 unless the color difference is significant and the upgrade price is very attractive.
    I hope this is the hint of the upcoming 150mp DB, which will be much more exciting
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    As EJ mentioned, it will be a very hard sell to the previous owners of the IQ3100 unless the color difference is significant and the upgrade price is very attractive.
    I'm pretty happy with my IQ3 100 and it's color rendering. The issue of using it on a tech camera remains, and I can't see anything in the description of the tech that would improve this and perhaps entice me to at least check into upgrading.

    Is this a replacement back for the current IQ3 100, or is this "another" optional back that is perceived more useful for some types of photography?
    wayne
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    I'm pretty happy with my IQ3 100 and it's color rendering. The issue of using it on a tech camera remains, and I can't see anything in the description of the tech that would improve this and perhaps entice me to at least check into upgrading.

    Is this a replacement back for the current IQ3 100, or is this "another" optional back that is perceived more useful for some types of photography?
    I'm curious as well. The other questions I have are, is this back/sensor/technology proprietary to Phase One?...OR should we expect Hassy, Pentax, Fuji e.t.c. to have an offering?

    Is the Trichromatic going to be the only 100MP back that Phase offers or will they be offering both the Tri and the predecessor , the IQ3100?

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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Quote Originally Posted by DougDolde View Post
    So ISO 35 is something new? My IQ180 has it
    ISO35 is new to CMOS, which I'm sure you knew...Thought you were done with Phase??
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Quote Originally Posted by aztwang View Post
    I'm curious as well. The other questions I have are, is this back/sensor/technology proprietary to Phase One?...OR should we expect Hassy, Pentax, Fuji e.t.c. to have an offering?

    Is the Trichromatic going to be the only 100MP back that Phase offers or will they be offering both the Tri and the predecessor , the IQ3100?

    IQ1 100 and IQ3 100 remain current products. Phase One tends to maintain product models in their lineups longer than just about any camera manufacturer I am aware of. You can still purchase IQ180 product new, and it was introduced 6.5 years ago. Both IQ1 100 and IQ3 100 models were reduced by $2,000 each with the launch of the IQ3 100 Trichromatic. And IQ3 100 refurbs are now available for $14,000 less than what a new IQ3 100 cost last week.

    https://captureintegration.com/phase...er-promotions/


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    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Hi Steve,

    A 35 ISO rating on the Trichromatic would be consistent with the normal IQ3-100MP rated at 50 ISO, if the filters are less permissive.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Excepting the IQ3 100 Trichromatic, which has a base of ISO 35.


    Steve Hendrix/CI

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi Steve,

    A 35 ISO rating on the Trichromatic would be consistent with the normal IQ3-100MP rated at 50 ISO, if the filters are less permissive.

    Best regards
    Erik

    I was simply noting the models that have offered an ISO 35 choice, not assessing the actual transmittance, but thank you for mentioning, Erik. Back when 22mp was the hottest thing ever, the base ISO for Leaf, Eyelike, and Sinar was 25. And Jenoptik told me the Dalsa 25 rating from the Eyelike M22 actually was closer to 16.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: • Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar • Authorized Reseller
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  27. #27
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Hi Steve,

    I would have expected to have some better information from Phase One on the new CFA design. They essentially claim a great step forward in image quality. But they don't offer any really usable information. Also, they offer a single raw file for download, this one:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Untitled.jpg 
Views:	4 
Size:	312.1 KB 
ID:	129187

    That picture says very little. They could have posted a raw image shot on the IQ3-100MP and the new sensor, preferably with a ColorChecker included for reference. But a single raw image without context is simply utterly irrelevant.

    My impression is that the new CFA/sensor design may be a major step forward, but information about is just a lot of hype and no context.

    Adding insult to injury, Phase One is suddenly talking about color science. But I don't see a spur of science, just marketing BS. Science is about reproducible data, measurements, full disclosure, sources, critical review. Phase One web site has exactly zero of that.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    I was simply noting the models that have offered an ISO 35 choice, not assessing the actual transmittance, but thank you for mentioning, Erik. Back when 22mp was the hottest thing ever, the base ISO for Leaf, Eyelike, and Sinar was 25. And Jenoptik told me the Dalsa 25 rating from the Eyelike M22 actually was closer to 16.


    Steve Hendrix/CI

  28. #28
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi Steve,

    I would have expected to have some better information from Phase One on the new CFA design. They essentially claim a great step forward in image quality. But they don't offer any really usable information. Also, they offer a single raw file for download, this one:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Untitled.jpg 
Views:	4 
Size:	312.1 KB 
ID:	129187

    That picture says very little. They could have posted a raw image shot on the IQ3-100MP and the new sensor, preferably with a ColorChecker included for reference. But a single raw image without context is simply utterly irrelevant.

    My impression is that the new CFA/sensor design may be a major step forward, but information about is just a lot of hype and no context.

    Adding insult to injury, Phase One is suddenly talking about color science. But I don't see a spur of science, just marketing BS. Science is about reproducible data, measurements, full disclosure, sources, critical review. Phase One web site has exactly zero of that.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Erik, as I mentioned, I am not going to defend how Phase One markets their products. Feel free to criticize their marketing, it doesn't really matter a lot to me, since we are going to tear apart the product anyway and see what makes it tick and get our information and present it.

    Regarding color science, I accept that they have a substantial pedigree for color science, going back years and years. The only reason you're hearing terms like color science from them now is because there isn't anything else really different about the IQ3 100 Trichromatic compared to the IQ3 100. The color is the only story. You're extending it that they are meaning to say they are scientists and doing scientific work and should present their findings and measurements, etc. And no one does that in our industry. They adopt a scientific approach in their work and technology, always have. Just like Canon, or Apple, or Space X or whoever. You're reading too much into it and asking them to satisfy your naturally curious scientific mind. They're not going to do a good job with that. They make cameras, here is the camera. See what it does. That is their primary objective. Again, I'm not defending it, just setting the reality.

    As far as sample files are concerned, few manufacturers provide good raw samples, and with Phase One's reliance on their dealer channel, helpful raw samples are expected to be provided by dealers as well.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Last edited by Steve Hendrix; 1 Week Ago at 12:17.
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: • Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar • Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: • Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar • Authorized Reseller
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  29. #29
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Erik, as I mentioned, I am not going to defend how Phase One markets their products. Feel free to criticize their marketing, it doesn't really matter a lot to me, since we are going to tear apart the product anyway and see what makes it tick and get our information and present it.

    Regarding color science, I accept that they have a substantial pedigree for color science, going back years and years. The only reason you're hearing terms like color science from them now is because there isn't anything else really different about the IQ3 100 Trichromatic compared to the IQ3 100. The color is the only story. You're extending it that they are meaning to say they are scientists and doing scientific work and should present their findings and measurements, etc. And no one does that in our industry. They adopt a scientific approach in their work and technology, always have. Just like Canon, or Apple, or Space X or whoever. You're reading too much into it and asking them to satisfy your naturally curious scientific mind. They're not going to do a good job with that. They make cameras, here is the camera. See what it does. That is their primary objective. Again, I'm not defending it, just setting the reality.

    As far as sample files are concerned, few manufacturers provide good raw samples, and with Phase One's reliance on their dealer channel, helpful raw samples are expected to be provided by dealers as well.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Hi Steve,

    As you know, I have great respect for your writing.

    The view I take on this is that Phase One claims they have a new revolutionary colour filter arrangement. It is a very tall statement, by any means, and anyone interested in colour science would be curious about that. Let's check the information:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P1_1.jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	21.1 KB 
ID:	129193

    So you have a lady in pink shot in artifical light at dusk illustrating the advance made. So you press the learn more button.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P1_2.jpg 
Views:	1 
Size:	20.6 KB 
ID:	129194
    And you are rewarded by some more images, that say little about the great advance made. There is some text describing the new sensor, the page ends with an "explore the science" button.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P1_3.jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	19.2 KB 
ID:	129195
    So this is the science, non overlapping spectral curves. Problem is that it would not work, at least it would not work with spectral colours. Yellow, for instance would excite both red and green channel. But, with non overlapping filters a yellow colour would either show up as red or as green. Most of the yellows we see are mixes of colours, of course.

    That illustration has raised a small discussion on the "Photographic Science and Technology" sub forum, see here:

    https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60114036

    Just to say, CFA design does matter. This was written a few years ago on Fred Miranda forums by "The Suede". The Suede is known as one of the giants in the colour industry.

    "The color rendering of say a H4D or a P65+ is close to impossible to mimic with certain smaller cameras, Canon uses a totally different filter strategy, and so does Oly. It EXTREMELY hard to get the same effect in manual PP work, and actually impossible to do it fully automated even with the best camera color profiles.

    Some of the main parts that are hard to mimic is the way noise and luma detail contrast relate to the underlying color. In a Canon, that has very low green-orange separation in raw, luma detail and noise on green, orange and red colors will behave a certain way. They tend to get "flat", and hue tends to get rather flat too. Trying to increase color separation in the camera profile increases chroma noise in the file, and it also has negative effects on luma - giving lots of false detail.

    But, Canon did this for a reason - this CFA strategy gets the smallest possible penalty for shooting in fluorescent and stadium lights, something you actually do in quite a lot of sports, as a reporter, or indeed as a private user shooting your kids with the kit lens. And they get very even and flat skin tones, stuff like red rashes and so on are covered up automatically by the lowered hue resolution.

    Medium format, Leica, Kodak - they all err on the "other side" of that fence. They're too well resolving in orange, and this isn't good either. The camera then gets extremely "sensitive" to the lighting conditions. Try shooting informal portraits with a P45+ in an office space with normal office lighting fixtures, without flash or natural light - the results are horrific. People look like they're in second stage corpse decomposition no matter what PP or camera profile you use.

    Nikon does some stuff right, but they have an over-sensitivity to yellow, and that makes the balance very hard to nail down in people photography. But they're (IMO) the best landscape cameras, since no other camera can touch them for green hue resolution. They have extreme resolution in green-yellow, something you can see when shooting large landscapes - every bush and tree can be identified by the amount of chlorofyll-A vs Chlorofyll-B mix the plant uses. The camera can easily pick out extremely small hue differences between two very similar greens standing next to each other.

    The best color "balance" for general usage that I've ever seen is actually the older Sony cameras (like the 850/900). They had their weaknesses, but they were better balanced than anything I've seen since - not counting the 15k€ specialist SML-filtered cameras we've used next to the hyperspectrals when doing art and craft history, but they're special cases."

    http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/top...=2013#11744473

    This posting is also quite interesting:

    http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/top...=2013#11744630

    What is obvious from theSuede's writing is that thrichromatic colour rendition is a compromise. The Bayer pattern actually allows for two different greens, Sony has done that on a bridge camera long. That technology may have had some benefits, but was probably not well supported by raw converters.

    I don't expect a camera vendor to share their technology in scientific papers, although that is quite feasible once a patent has been acquired. But, I would expect more and better information when a vendor claims new and revolutionary technology.

    Best regards
    Erik

  30. #30
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Is there a way to upgrade a normal IQ3 100 ? If they only need to change
    the filters and firmware i guess it could be done.

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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Probably not but very good question.

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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi Steve,

    As you know, I have great respect for your writing.

    The view I take on this is that Phase One claims they have a new revolutionary colour filter arrangement. It is a very tall statement, by any means, and anyone interested in colour science would be curious about that. Let's check the information:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P1_1.jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	21.1 KB 
ID:	129193

    So you have a lady in pink shot in artifical light at dusk illustrating the advance made. So you press the learn more button.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P1_2.jpg 
Views:	1 
Size:	20.6 KB 
ID:	129194
    And you are rewarded by some more images, that say little about the great advance made. There is some text describing the new sensor, the page ends with an "explore the science" button.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P1_3.jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	19.2 KB 
ID:	129195
    So this is the science, non overlapping spectral curves. Problem is that it would not work, at least it would not work with spectral colours. Yellow, for instance would excite both red and green channel. But, with non overlapping filters a yellow colour would either show up as red or as green. Most of the yellows we see are mixes of colours, of course.

    That illustration has raised a small discussion on the "Photographic Science and Technology" sub forum, see here:

    https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60114036

    Just to say, CFA design does matter. This was written a few years ago on Fred Miranda forums by "The Suede". The Suede is known as one of the giants in the colour industry.

    "The color rendering of say a H4D or a P65+ is close to impossible to mimic with certain smaller cameras, Canon uses a totally different filter strategy, and so does Oly. It EXTREMELY hard to get the same effect in manual PP work, and actually impossible to do it fully automated even with the best camera color profiles.

    Some of the main parts that are hard to mimic is the way noise and luma detail contrast relate to the underlying color. In a Canon, that has very low green-orange separation in raw, luma detail and noise on green, orange and red colors will behave a certain way. They tend to get "flat", and hue tends to get rather flat too. Trying to increase color separation in the camera profile increases chroma noise in the file, and it also has negative effects on luma - giving lots of false detail.

    But, Canon did this for a reason - this CFA strategy gets the smallest possible penalty for shooting in fluorescent and stadium lights, something you actually do in quite a lot of sports, as a reporter, or indeed as a private user shooting your kids with the kit lens. And they get very even and flat skin tones, stuff like red rashes and so on are covered up automatically by the lowered hue resolution.

    Medium format, Leica, Kodak - they all err on the "other side" of that fence. They're too well resolving in orange, and this isn't good either. The camera then gets extremely "sensitive" to the lighting conditions. Try shooting informal portraits with a P45+ in an office space with normal office lighting fixtures, without flash or natural light - the results are horrific. People look like they're in second stage corpse decomposition no matter what PP or camera profile you use.

    Nikon does some stuff right, but they have an over-sensitivity to yellow, and that makes the balance very hard to nail down in people photography. But they're (IMO) the best landscape cameras, since no other camera can touch them for green hue resolution. They have extreme resolution in green-yellow, something you can see when shooting large landscapes - every bush and tree can be identified by the amount of chlorofyll-A vs Chlorofyll-B mix the plant uses. The camera can easily pick out extremely small hue differences between two very similar greens standing next to each other.

    The best color "balance" for general usage that I've ever seen is actually the older Sony cameras (like the 850/900). They had their weaknesses, but they were better balanced than anything I've seen since - not counting the 15k€ specialist SML-filtered cameras we've used next to the hyperspectrals when doing art and craft history, but they're special cases."

    http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/top...=2013#11744473

    This posting is also quite interesting:

    http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/top...=2013#11744630

    What is obvious from theSuede's writing is that thrichromatic colour rendition is a compromise. The Bayer pattern actually allows for two different greens, Sony has done that on a bridge camera long. That technology may have had some benefits, but was probably not well supported by raw converters.

    I don't expect a camera vendor to share their technology in scientific papers, although that is quite feasible once a patent has been acquired. But, I would expect more and better information when a vendor claims new and revolutionary technology.

    Best regards
    Erik

    I understand what you're wanting Erik. From their standpoint, they are going to provide marketing information (to market the product, not explain the product) and a product that (they hope) achieves the results they claim. They're a sales organization and their objective is to sell products. From our standpoint, whatever they claim only serves as the propulsion for us to test and determine if the product meets or exceeds those claims.

    We are concerned about the information they provide only for the purpose of proving whether or not the product performs as claimed, and if not to quantify how it differs. You want to prove whether the product will perform as claimed by reviewing the limited provided technical information to assess whether that adds up to what they are claiming. Unfortunately, Erik, for what you're after, my sense is that you're bound to be frustrated.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: • Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar • Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: • Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar • Authorized Reseller
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    This was written a few years ago on Fred Miranda forums by "The Suede". The Suede is known as one of the giants in the colour industry.

    "The color rendering of say a H4D or a P65+ is close to impossible to mimic with certain smaller cameras, Canon uses a totally different filter strategy, and so does Oly. It EXTREMELY hard to get the same effect in manual PP work, and actually impossible to do it fully automated even with the best camera color profiles.

    Some of the main parts that are hard to mimic is the way noise and luma detail contrast relate to the underlying color. In a Canon, that has very low green-orange separation in raw, luma detail and noise on green, orange and red colors will behave a certain way. They tend to get "flat", and hue tends to get rather flat too. Trying to increase color separation in the camera profile increases chroma noise in the file, and it also has negative effects on luma - giving lots of false detail.

    But, Canon did this for a reason - this CFA strategy gets the smallest possible penalty for shooting in fluorescent and stadium lights, something you actually do in quite a lot of sports, as a reporter, or indeed as a private user shooting your kids with the kit lens. And they get very even and flat skin tones, stuff like red rashes and so on are covered up automatically by the lowered hue resolution.

    Medium format, Leica, Kodak - they all err on the "other side" of that fence. They're too well resolving in orange, and this isn't good either. The camera then gets extremely "sensitive" to the lighting conditions. Try shooting informal portraits with a P45+ in an office space with normal office lighting fixtures, without flash or natural light - the results are horrific. People look like they're in second stage corpse decomposition no matter what PP or camera profile you use.

    Nikon does some stuff right, but they have an over-sensitivity to yellow, and that makes the balance very hard to nail down in people photography. But they're (IMO) the best landscape cameras, since no other camera can touch them for green hue resolution. They have extreme resolution in green-yellow, something you can see when shooting large landscapes - every bush and tree can be identified by the amount of chlorofyll-A vs Chlorofyll-B mix the plant uses. The camera can easily pick out extremely small hue differences between two very similar greens standing next to each other.

    The best color "balance" for general usage that I've ever seen is actually the older Sony cameras (like the 850/900). They had their weaknesses, but they were better balanced than anything I've seen since - not counting the 15k€ specialist SML-filtered cameras we've used next to the hyperspectrals when doing art and craft history, but they're special cases."
    The astute reader will also notice that this post answers many recurrent questions on this forum, like "do MF cameras have special colours or not?", etc...

  34. #34
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    Re: Capture Integration 1st Takes on IQ3 100 Trichromatic and XF Feature Update #4

    The general principles that TheSuede explained in that post are important to understand. But Canon's filter array specifications, and for all I know those of the other manufacturers mentioned, have changed quite a bit over the years since that post went up. So do keep in mind the general lessons, but don't assume that the specifics that he mentioned then still accurately describe the color recording behavior of newer models from the various manufacturers today.

    As for the Trichromatic, I agree that the marketing material from Phase One doesn't tell us much and I look forward to real-world tests - and maybe, if we're lucky, knowledgeable commentary from someone like TheSuede.
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