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Rodenstock*90mm f/5.6 HR Digaron-W/SW Lens VS The previous generation

Alan

Active member
I scaled the W graphs (Red) and overlaid them on the SW.

*Note the magnification difference in the MTF chart: W at .08x and SW at infinity, so not really comparable, but I did it anyway. :cool:

HR90-W_vs_SW.jpg
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
'Luckily' it's just lenses and not the rest. It's so random - why a camera lens and not a camera body?

And yes that includes all Rodenstock and Schneider ones, and (eg) Japanese made but 'German designed' ones, and Alpa mounted 'Swiss' ones.

A 90mm HRSW is now 25% more to US customers than it was 3 months ago.
And the real sad issue, IMO is that odds are that will stay the price. Tarriffs will be dropped, but all the consumer products that were increased in price, tend to stay there. Just like DJI products will continue to stay at the current tariff inflated price.

Also, I will assume if the lens cost increases 25%, you can expect the mounting cost to increase also?

Paul C
 

Jamgolf

Member
Another point is that I just learned that it can be mounted in Cambo WRS T/S mount which the Rodie can't (T/S).
I am not sure about older 90HR's ability to be mounted in Cambo WRS T/S mount, 90HRSW certainly can be mounted in T/S because I have one.
 

dchew

Well-known member
Thanks Dave, I'll see if I can dig up the thread.

Peter
Peter,
I just realized I left off a "w" when I wrote, "90 hrs with..." I meant the HRSW. If I gave you the impression I compared the earlier hr version (which you are really asking about), I apologize.

Dave
 

Pemihan

Well-known member
Peter,
I just realized I left off a "w" when I wrote, "90 hrs with..." I meant the HRSW. If I gave you the impression I compared the earlier hr version (which you are really asking about), I apologize.

Dave
No worries Dave, I have more or less decided to go for the Schneider 90mm. But thanks anyway :)

Peter
 

JohnL

New member
I think the MTF graph for the 90 SW is actually for f-stop 8. According the Rodenstock spec sheet for the 90 SW, the first MTF shown is titled f-stop 4, but the 90 SW is a f5.6 lens. The first graph is probably for f5.6 and the next one is probably f8. Nonetheless, according to the MTF graphs at the same resolution and f8, the Rodie 90 SW is still better than the SK 90, but not by a big amount IMHO.
 

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Pemihan

Well-known member
Ok, I have decided to go for a Schneider 90mm Apo-Digitar 4.5. Have found one in what looks like a Schneider aperture mount but can't really figure the thin ring out. I suppose it is removable? Can one of you tell me something about this?
I am thinking to have it mounted in Cambo WRS mount and would of course need to add a helical.
 

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RLB

Member
The older 90 mm was called Apo Sironar digital 5,6/90 mm and it was not a HR lens.
HR lenses were 23, 28, 35, 60, 70, 180.
After developing new HR lenses with bigger image circle Rodenstock changes the name to Digaron -W HR.The color changes to blue. So you get Digaron-W HR: 32, 40, 50, 70 (the older magenta), and 90 ( the older magenta).
rodenstock renamed the 90 mm to digaron W HR not becouse of similar lensdesign, but becouse of the possibility to resolve the new sensors. So the 90 mm is a different lens in the Digaron-W hr group.
Some of this information above by user Alkibiades is 100% incorrect, and this subject has been discussed extensively previously on this forum, I suggest you search for it.

The Cliff Notes: Per Rodenstock directly, the 90mm APO Sironar is indeed an "HR" lens and is EXACTLY the same lens as the Blue ring 90mm HR-W. Exactly the same lens with only the color of ring and name changing. This information is spelled out clearly in Rodenstock's own literature. Essentially the 90mm APO Sironar was already a "better" lens than the others in the APO Sironar group, so when they moved to the HR-W Blue ring series they kept the 90mm exactly as it was previously, only "rebadging" it.

The proof is always in the pudding; Ive tested two copies of the 90mm APO Sironar with the IQ4 (150) and an object level target and shooting with it stitching images at up to 12mm of shift. It is an excellent lens and in every way comparable to the Rodenstock's best. Is the new 90mm HR-SW yellow band better? I don't know and don't care to purchase one as it's 6x the price ($1,500 vs $9,000), heavier, and requires a rear extension tube on my Arca R.

Robert B
 

dchew

Well-known member
Peter,
It is hard to tell; mine is mounted on a Rodenstock helical, and there is only about 1/16" between the bottom of the front barrel (the part that says "Lens made in Germany") and the front face of the helical. The back of my lens has the usual lens nut that requires a spanner wrench. The ring just behind that nut on the back is the back face of the helical with the usual 3-screw mount. On my lens, it looks like the helical is mounted in front of that thin ring but I don't see it behind the helical either. I wonder if that was for an enlarger mount? I don't know.

Sorry for the crappy pics:





Dave
 

Pemihan

Well-known member
Peter,
It is hard to tell; mine is mounted on a Rodenstock helical, and there is only about 1/16" between the bottom of the front barrel (the part that says "Lens made in Germany") and the front face of the helical. The back of my lens has the usual lens nut that requires a spanner wrench. The ring just behind that nut on the back is the back face of the helical with the usual 3-screw mount. On my lens, it looks like the helical is mounted in front of that thin ring but I don't see it behind the helical either. I wonder if that was for an enlarger mount? I don't know.

Dave
Dave,
I solved the mystery. It is simply the retainer ring used to fasten the lens to a lens plate or helical

Peter
 

TheDude

Member
Some of this information above by user Alkibiades is 100% incorrect, and this subject has been discussed extensively previously on this forum, I suggest you search for it.

The Cliff Notes: Per Rodenstock directly, the 90mm APO Sironar is indeed an "HR" lens and is EXACTLY the same lens as the Blue ring 90mm HR-W. Exactly the same lens with only the color of ring and name changing. This information is spelled out clearly in Rodenstock's own literature.

I am still trying to figure this out myself.

There are:

- Sironar
- APO-Sironar (at one stage relabelled as Apo-Sironar-N)
- Apo-Sironar-S
- APO-Sironar digital
- APO-Sironar digital HR

I have seen APO-Sironar digital HR lenses in the focal lengths 28, 35, 60, and 100.

The APO-Sironar digital HR line got relabelled as HR Digaron-S apparently with no design changes beyond the change of name.

(APO-Sironar digital and APO-Sironar digital HR were re-labelled by Sinar and sold as Sinaron Digital and Sinaron Digital HR, respectively.)

My current understanding is that the HR Digaron-W line is a complete new design.

The HR Digaron-W 90mm was redesigned, and is now the sole lens of the HR Digaron-SW line (Ignoring the blue ringed 138mm). A person in the know told me that the 70mm may get a similar redesign.
 
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RLB

Member
I am still trying to figure this out myself.

There are:

- Sironar
- APO-Sironar (at one stage relabelled as Apo-Sironar-N)
- Apo-Sironar-S
- APO-Sironar digital
- APO-Sironar digital HR

I have seen APO-Sironar digital HR lenses in the focal lengths 28, 35, 60, and 100.

The APO-Sironar digital HR line got relabelled as HR Digaron-S apparently with no design changes beyond the change of name.

(APO-Sironar digital and APO-Sironar digital HR were re-labelled by Sinar and sold as Sinaron Digital and Sinaron Digital HR, respectively.)

My current understanding is that the HR Digaron-W line is a complete new design.

The HR Digaron-W 90mm was redesigned, and is now the sole lens of the HR Digaron-SW line (Ignoring the blue ringed 138mm). A person in the know told me that the 70mm may get a similar redesign.
_______________________________

Directly from Rodenstock:

However, digital lenses with image circle diameters of about 70 mm designed for smaller sensors do not allow sufficient or even any camera movements. This is why the new Rodenstock lens series HR Digaron-W (Blue Ring) with larger image circles from 90 mm on and with an extremely high resolution very close to the physical limit of diffraction has been developed. This new lens series comprises the focal lengths of 40 mm, 50 mm, 70 mm and 90 mm. The last mentioned two lenses are the renamed former Apo-Sironar digital 70 mm f/5.6 and Apo-Sironar digital 90 mm f/5.6 which both had already been calculated according to the much higher demands on freedom from aberrations for higher resolution with larger working apertures (reduced stopping down).

Rodenstock APO-Sironar Digital 70mm and 90mm = 70mm and 90mm HR-W (Blue Ring)

The Sironar and Sironar S were film lenses. The APO-Sironar Digital was a redesign for DB's. Some of those added the "HR" to the ring, some did not according to production run, but there is zero difference. Also zero difference in that series moving forward for 70mm and 90mm.

Robert B
 

TheDude

Member
_______________________________

Directly from Rodenstock:

...

Rodenstock APO-Sironar Digital 70mm and 90mm = 70mm and 90mm HR-W (Blue Ring)

... The APO-Sironar Digital was a redesign for DB's. Some of those added the "HR" to the ring, some did not according to production run, but there is zero difference...

Robert B
Thanks. This would explain why the 70mm and 90mm (Blue ring) are regarded as weaker lenses in the Digaron-W lineup.

But there is a difference in the design of the APO-Sironar Digital and APO-Sironar Digital HD. (Have lenses from both lines.)
 

Alkibiades

Well-known member
Hi Robert,
could you write me what of my information exactly are wrong or incorrect?



Some of this information above by user Alkibiades is 100% incorrect, and this subject has been discussed extensively previously on this forum, I suggest you search for it.

The Cliff Notes: Per Rodenstock directly, the 90mm APO Sironar is indeed an "HR" lens and is EXACTLY the same lens as the Blue ring 90mm HR-W. Exactly the same lens with only the color of ring and name changing. This information is spelled out clearly in Rodenstock's own literature. Essentially the 90mm APO Sironar was already a "better" lens than the others in the APO Sironar group, so when they moved to the HR-W Blue ring series they kept the 90mm exactly as it was previously, only "rebadging" it.

The proof is always in the pudding; Ive tested two copies of the 90mm APO Sironar with the IQ4 (150) and an object level target and shooting with it stitching images at up to 12mm of shift. It is an excellent lens and in every way comparable to the Rodenstock's best. Is the new 90mm HR-SW yellow band better? I don't know and don't care to purchase one as it's 6x the price ($1,500 vs $9,000), heavier, and requires a rear extension tube on my Arca R.

Robert B
 

RLB

Member
Thanks. This would explain why the 70mm and 90mm (Blue ring) are regarded as weaker lenses in the Digaron-W lineup.

But there is a difference in the design of the APO-Sironar Digital and APO-Sironar Digital HD. (Have lenses from both lines.)

Possibly so, key word being "regarded". I have 90mm APO-Sironar and the 70mm HR-W and both are excellent on the IQ4 - 150. I have a 32mm and 40mm HR-W Blue ring as well, and both are stellar. The advantage to the APO-Sironar Digital 90mm over the newer lens is cost (1/6th), size, weight (30% lighter) and ability to forgo the extra extension on the Arca R cameras.

The consensus is that just because a lens is "older" means its not "good enough" for the IQ4. Which I've discovered would be an incorrect assumption based on testing. Granted each copy of any lens has some variance...so keep in mind YMMV. Keep in mind that the IQ4 uses a BSI CMOS sensor, so the pixels wells are not deep like they are on the previous IQ design, meaning the new back while higher resolution is actually more forgiving than the previous one due to the sensor design. I've seen this with the 32mm...I can shift far further with no color fringing.

Robert B
 

Alkibiades

Well-known member
So I never wrote something different.
I wrote 3 times to this and if you would read it all you would see that this is what i wrote.
- Apo Sironar digital 90 mm-Magenta is the Digaron-W HR 90 mm Blue --yes!
- Apo Sironar digital 70 mm magenta is the Digaron-W HR 70 mm Blue-- yes!
The different story is what rodenstock means by using the name HR.
At the introducing of the apo sironar digital HR lensline rodenstock named only LENSES OF NEW RETROFOCUS LENS DESIGN as HR lenses.
The 90 mm was a new developed middle long lens- agreat lens- i have two of them!- for digital use! yes.
But it has a symmetric lensdesign. that is what I mean, Lensdesign, not if is sharp or not.
Yes, the 90 mm can resolve backs, therefore it has now the Digaron-W HR name- yes, it is a high reolution lens!
But in the new context indeed. Now rodenstock use the HR as a name for High resolution and not for a lens of a new retrofocus design.
It is very confused indeed.
Becouse the 90 mm is a symmetric lens it has no distortion.
It belongs now to the Digaron-W HR lensline, but it is the only one lens with symmetric lensdesign. This fact is important to know for some guys who look for a lens with no distortion.

The new Digaron-WS 90 mm has the new retrofocus lensdesign as other HR lenses ( that means extremly high resolution even to the end of the image circle, but some distortion).

I was talking about this whole confusion ( 70 and 90 mm lenses) about 2 years ago with Mr. Wenzel who is the leading technician by rodenstock. So I would never write something that I do not know that is 100 procent true.



_______________________________

Directly from Rodenstock:

However, digital lenses with image circle diameters of about 70 mm designed for smaller sensors do not allow sufficient or even any camera movements. This is why the new Rodenstock lens series HR Digaron-W (Blue Ring) with larger image circles from 90 mm on and with an extremely high resolution very close to the physical limit of diffraction has been developed. This new lens series comprises the focal lengths of 40 mm, 50 mm, 70 mm and 90 mm. The last mentioned two lenses are the renamed former Apo-Sironar digital 70 mm f/5.6 and Apo-Sironar digital 90 mm f/5.6 which both had already been calculated according to the much higher demands on freedom from aberrations for higher resolution with larger working apertures (reduced stopping down).

Rodenstock APO-Sironar Digital 70mm and 90mm = 70mm and 90mm HR-W (Blue Ring)

The Sironar and Sironar S were film lenses. The APO-Sironar Digital was a redesign for DB's. Some of those added the "HR" to the ring, some did not according to production run, but there is zero difference. Also zero difference in that series moving forward for 70mm and 90mm.

Robert B
 

RLB

Member
Hi Robert,
could you write me what of my information exactly are wrong or incorrect?
The comment where you refer to 90mm APO-Sironar Digital lens (Magenta ring) as being a different design from the 90mm HR-W (Blue ring).
Rodenstock explains in the text I posted that it is indeed the same lens, contrary to your comments. The quote is taken directly from Rodenstock's brochure.

The current gold band 90mm HR-SW is a completely new design.

I re-read your post...I think we are in agreement. My apologies!


Robert B
 

TheDude

Member
key word being "regarded". I have 90mm APO-Sironar and the 70mm HR-W and both are excellent on the IQ4 - 150.
Should have added "by some". Have no personal knowledge or experience with either lenses.

Lens design is about managing and balancing compromises, earlier lenses weren't designed with the current high resolution digital backs in mind. Slight telephoto focal length are supposed to be easy to get "sharp".
 
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