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First experience with AFr (focus recompose) for Phase One XF

DrakeJ

New member
I updated the firmware to feature #4 today, ran the new focus calibration which ended up at the same setting I had previously for the 80mm blue ring lens. It feels as if the automatic calibration is simply a tool to make sure everything is set up correctly to calibrate your lens, i.e. correct amount of light etc.

So, here's my 50 cents regarding the focus recompose (AFr) feature:

+ zoom to focus point works very well in the preview. It seems to be spot on where I focused originally.
+ It works, if you do the same recomposition every time, or similar recomposition

- If you use AFr, take a shot with recomposition, and then take a shot straight on without recomposing, the shot will always be out of focus
- It's mostly accurate only if you recompose the same way all the time

All in all, weird that zoom to focus point is always spot on but not the focus itself. I feel there's a lot of improvement to be made. If I require the same recomposition all the time, it will surely be activated, but if not it's just weird to feel that the first recomposition will be out of focus.
 

DrakeJ

New member
... and I can add it's a bit buggy. Stopped working for me after a restart and the XF needed to be restarted 3 times before it started working again. Weird.

I most likely won't use this on a paid shoot as it is now.
 

DrakeJ

New member
Here's my theory on how it really works:

Hasselblad's TrueFocus will change focus during a recomposition.

Phase One's AFr will based on the previous recomposition calculate and apply immediately when you focus. That explains why the shot will be out of focus if you decide not to recompose because it will not adjust focus after focus lock.

Advantage of AFr is speed, advantage of TrueFocus is accuracy every shot.
 

Jamgolf

Member
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and observations.
I've played around a bit with AFr and so far I have to say it is not working too well for me or may be I am just not getting the hang of it.
My primary use case for an XF is headshots and I focus on subject's eye then recompose. AFr is giving me consistently out of focus results.
I'll continue to practice and give it a try but so far I am not getting the instant wow factor that I had hoped.

I still give Phase One full credit for providing this feature as free firmware upgrade. May be it just needs a bit more tweaking.
Or perhaps I need to play with the settings a bit and learn to use AFr.
 
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DrakeJ

New member
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and observations.
I've played around a bit with AFr and so far I have to say it is not working too well for me or may be I am just not getting the hang of it.
My primary use case for an XF is headshots and I focus on subject's eye then recompose. AFr is giving me consistently out of focus results.
I'll continue to practice and give it a try but so far I am not getting the instant wow factor that I had hoped.

I still give Phase One full credit for providing this feature as free firmware upgrade. May be it just needs a bit more tweaking.
Or perhaps I need to play with the settings a bit and learn to use AFr.
Do you use average focus or spot focus? I've tested a bit more with the 80mm which is the only BR lens that I have that supports AFr, and as long as I recompose the same way it gives me pretty consistent results.

But to be honest, I'd rather just recompose with a good technique which compensates for the distance and get about 80% in focus instead of asking myself if I need to take a new test shot just because I'm either going to recompose drastically different than my previous shot or not recompose at all.

I need to insert a sad emoji here :(
 
Do you use average focus or spot focus? I've tested a bit more with the 80mm which is the only BR lens that I have that supports AFr, and as long as I recompose the same way it gives me pretty consistent results.

But to be honest, I'd rather just recompose with a good technique which compensates for the distance and get about 80% in focus instead of asking myself if I need to take a new test shot just because I'm either going to recompose drastically different than my previous shot or not recompose at all.

I need to insert a sad emoji here :(
This has been one of the most frustrating experiences I am having with my gear. I was really torn choosing between Hasselblad and PhaseOne. I am a portrait shooter and focus accuracy is so much more important to me than focusing speed. Anyway what use is focus speed if it isn't accurate anyway. One of the main reasons I chose the Phase is for capture one, as weird as it may sound, but the raw processing engine of capture one is unbeatable for now. (I haven't used Phocus, so can't compare). Now they've come out with an optional hardware upgrade for the HAP module, which is sad really. You spend tons of money on a system and they want you to spend more on it for features that should've been there in the first place. I was initially excited because in the marketing material they say that as you shoot, the camera learns your way of shooting and adapts to it - so I thought maybe they've been able to add in machine learning algorithms that learn your shooting style over a period of time and makes the autofocus more robust, but as it turns out, it isn't that. I hope someone at PhaseOne is spending days and night to come out with a new firmware update that makes the AF algorithm substantially better. [End of Rant].
By the way you have a great IG feed Joakim. I am based in Stockholm as well, if you're interested maybe we can get together sometime to shoot a few portraits. Cheers!
 

DrakeJ

New member
This has been one of the most frustrating experiences I am having with my gear. I was really torn choosing between Hasselblad and PhaseOne. I am a portrait shooter and focus accuracy is so much more important to me than focusing speed. Anyway what use is focus speed if it isn't accurate anyway. One of the main reasons I chose the Phase is for capture one, as weird as it may sound, but the raw processing engine of capture one is unbeatable for now. (I haven't used Phocus, so can't compare). Now they've come out with an optional hardware upgrade for the HAP module, which is sad really. You spend tons of money on a system and they want you to spend more on it for features that should've been there in the first place. I was initially excited because in the marketing material they say that as you shoot, the camera learns your way of shooting and adapts to it - so I thought maybe they've been able to add in machine learning algorithms that learn your shooting style over a period of time and makes the autofocus more robust, but as it turns out, it isn't that. I hope someone at PhaseOne is spending days and night to come out with a new firmware update that makes the AF algorithm substantially better. [End of Rant].
By the way you have a great IG feed Joakim. I am based in Stockholm as well, if you're interested maybe we can get together sometime to shoot a few portraits. Cheers!
Thanks for the compliment, debabrata.ray! Considering your nice words, I probably need to update the feed soon ;)

The reason for me going Phase One was mostly Capture One. Hasselblad need to put down some serious efforts into Phocus to get it up to par.

As for the AFr-feature, I opened a case with Phase One with my observations. I hope they will improve it considerably. (haven't tried the latest firmware yet though)
 

Jamgolf

Member
Those who have upgraded their XF bodies to the HAP-2 module, do you notice any improvement in AFr performance?
I've been on the wait list for HAP-2 but wondering if its worth it, since I am mainly interested in getting AFr to work better.
I'd appreciate any input based on real usage.
Thanks!
 
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kdphotography

Well-known member
I think the AF performance of the first generation HAP-1 is quite good on the XF. The question of whether to upgrade to the HAP-2 module on the Phase XF or not probably depends more on the individual photographer and their typical work or subject matter. That being said, I did have the HAP-2 module upgrade completed on my Phase XF, and the upgrade has been worthwhile to me. There is a definite improvement in AF performance particularly in dimly lit conditions. Since I work in studio often---that fits my typical working conditions. AF is fast and also seems quicker to lock on what might be more difficult subject matter previously. To the extent that AF performance locking on subject matter is improved in dimly lit situations, I think that advantage is the main improvement when using AFr. AFr in otherwise well lit conditions probably works just as well with the original HAP-1.

It took about two weeks to complete my HAP-2 upgrade. Phase One provided me with a loaner XF body in the meantime, which unfortunately despite current firmware, was really wonky. Plan your schedule accordingly when doing the upgrade. I do think the HAP-w upgrade is worthwhile.

I'm hoping we see further refinements to AFr with future firmware updates, particularly the ability to turn AFr on/off easier without having to locate it buried two menus deep. I understand from Jeffery Salter that there is some sort of workaround that can be programmed into a button on the XF body, but haven't had the chance to bug Brad Kaye at CI.

Ken
 

Jamgolf

Member
Since I work in studio often---that fits my typical working conditions. AF is fast and also seems quicker to lock on what might be more difficult subject matter previously. To the extent that AF performance locking on subject matter is improved in dimly lit situations, I think that advantage is the main improvement when using AFr. AFr in otherwise well lit conditions probably works just as well with the original HAP-1.
Thanks for your input Ken. Much appreciated!
I agree that in bright conditions XF auto focus performance is very good.
However in a studio with only the modeling light ON, AF performance is just OK (in my experience).
But it sounds like HAP-2 will infact help under those conditions.

My guess is that if AF improves, then AFr might benefit from that too, as you said.
So it sounds like the upgrade might be worth it for my use case after all :)
(I am using XF + 150/2.8 exclusively in studio)
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
The HAP-2 upgrade definitely helps me in studio. The increase in AF performance is noticeable. I also use modeling lights only, Phase XF and most often Phase SK 150mm LS BR too.

ken
 

aztwang

Member
The HAP-2 upgrade definitely helps me in studio. The increase in AF performance is noticeable. I also use modeling lights only, Phase XF and most often Phase SK 150mm LS BR too.

ken
Ken,

Sounds like Hap2 is the way to go. I have found that AFr accuracy is very much dependent on good light. With good light i find the accuracy of AFr 95%+ but decrease light by a stop under and that percentage drops to maybe less than 75%. I can see Hap2 helping all the way around.

Ken, you can easily program your front button to AFr. Start at Capture set up-UI set up-Control set up-front and then select Afr. Now when you push your front button you will NOT see AFr in the tools screen change to on when pushing the button BUT when you do push your front button the lens will do its calibrate thing and AFr will pop up on your XF top touch screen just above your LS icon and left of your aperture display.

Cheers

Don
 

ejpeiker

Member
Since the conversation has shifted to HAP-2, here is a repost of my findings after upgrading to HAP 2 that I posted in another thread here GetDPI a month ago or so:

"I finally got my XF back today. It took quite a bit longer than anticipated as Phase found a number of things that needed to be upgraded and repaired to make my camera current which required a wait for parts. All of this was included in the price of the HAP2 upgrade.

I have spent the afternoon playing around with it. I started by focus trimming all of my lenses and they all changed substantially from their previous value. In my case, on average the shift was about 75 points in the positive direction from what they were before. I spent a lot of time doing this including tethering the camera to carefully analyze each frame. I am confident that I now have a camera that is well tuned for focus.

Throughout this exercise I most definitely felt like the camera was finding the focus point faster than before and locking on more quickly without the back and forth hunting that I was used to previously. You point the camera, push the focus button (I use back-button focus) and the lens drives there and locks on in a much more affirmative manner than it did before. As the light got dimmer in the afternoon, I feel I was able to obtain reliable AF about 10 minutes later or a bit darker than before (the sun sets quickly in southern Arizona). So overall I do feel like the new AF system was accurately represented by Phase. Whether it's worth it to you or not depends largely on what and how you shoot and under what lighting conditions. I shoot a lot in low light at dawn or dusk so I find the lower Ev capability and the more affirmative focus lock to be a very positive change."
 

med

Active member
Ken,

Sounds like Hap2 is the way to go. I have found that AFr accuracy is very much dependent on good light. With good light i find the accuracy of AFr 95%+ but decrease light by a stop under and that percentage drops to maybe less than 75%. I can see Hap2 helping all the way around.

Ken, you can easily program your front button to AFr. Start at Capture set up-UI set up-Control set up-front and then select Afr. Now when you push your front button you will NOT see AFr in the tools screen change to on when pushing the button BUT when you do push your front button the lens will do its calibrate thing and AFr will pop up on your XF top touch screen just above your LS icon and left of your aperture display.

Cheers

Don
I tried configuring the front button to turn AFr on and I must hve fat fingers as I found I was turning it on accidentally all the time... this is especially problematic with lenses that don’t support AFr as this prints an error message on the XF that must be cleared on the top screen.

I definitely need to experiment with AFr more... in my few attempts with the 150 2.8 BR it led to more misses than hits.
 

Jamgolf

Member
After waiting for 3.5 months for the HAP-2 upgrade, it seems I'll have to wait for another 2-3 months to send in my XF for HAP-2 upgrade.
Seems the job is time-consuming and the workers have their hands full.
Oh well...
 

ejpeiker

Member
After waiting for 3.5 months for the HAP-2 upgrade, it seems I'll have to wait for another 2-3 months to send in my XF for HAP-2 upgrade.
Seems the job is time-consuming and the workers have their hands full.
Oh well...
I believe they are all taking much longer than anticipated because many cameras need additional work and hardware/mechanical upgrades and parts availability is slowing things down. That was certainly the case for my camera.
 

Jamgolf

Member
I spent about 3 hours straight last night trying to get the hang of XF's AFr feature.
I setup this simple offset scene with 3 focus points and started shooting in AFr mode selecting one of the 3 focus points randomly and then recomposing/reframing randomly (left/right/high/low).
My reframing varied from slight to extreme i.e. original focus point being placed into one of the 4 corners upon reframing.


Technique:
  • I had the front button programmed for focussing.
  • I had the shutter release button programmed to release only (i.e. focus is not disturbed)
  • Setup on a tripod using a ball head
  • AFr Zoom to Focus feature enabled to readily evaluate the point-focussed-on, after recomposition
  • Aperture at f2.8 using150/2.8 BR lens

To start with, my results were not very good (terrible actually) so I kept tweaking various settings and slowly I started getting more consistent results.
For now I've settled with the following settings:

AF Mode: Average
AF Drive: Single
AF Priority: Release
Shutter: LS Priority
Vibration Detection: Off
AFr Mode: On
Manual Lens: Off


My system:
System: 4.01.4
XF Firmware: 4.01.5
IQ Firmware: 5.09.49

Focus Trim: Make sure you have already set the correct focus trim for your lens

To enable "AFr Zoom to Focus" feature (on IQ digital back)
Menu -> IQ Settings -> Preview -> AFr Zoom To Focus -> Always

Since I was shooting at a distance of only 29 inches from the front of the lens to the nearest focus point, at f2.8 with 150mm lens its a very shallow depth of field, yet after recomposing "AFr Zoom to Focus" started showing decent results. Not perfectly sharp but reasonably sharp. So, I feel that at distances greater than 29 inches reasonably sharp would start becoming perfectly sharp or with a smaller aperture i.e. f4 instead of f2.8 would also make the results consistently sharp.

This has been a really positive exercise for me and I am sharing my settings in case someone else wants to give it a try.
I'll probably continue to tweak but at least with these settings AFr is yielding decent results for me - so its a start.

With "AFr Zoom To Focus" you can see that the camera knows where you focussed exactly before recomposing. XF is not guessing. It is actually smart.
Kudos to Phase One for this AFr feature :thumbup:
I have a feeling AFr has the potential to be improved into a kick a$$ performer via future firmware.

Cheers!
 
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