Hasselblad x1d and Short Flash Duration

[jdphoto]

I would consider the Elinchrom ELB 400 and action head. They also have Hi-Sync technology with the HS head/EL Skyport transmitter with HS that allows full power flashes @ 1/2000th and that was using a Sony A7rII with a focal plane shutter. Tiny lights and extremely light battery with access to loads of modifiers. Each light is 424w/s and fits in your hand. You could carry this battery all day. This is not HSS where it reduces power to achieve high speed sync, but full power flashes when you need to control ambient.

http://www.elinchrom.com/battery/elb400.html

 

[DrakeJ]

I would consider the Elinchrom ELB 400 and action head. They also have Hi-Sync technology with the HS head/EL Skyport transmitter with HS that allows full power flashes @ 1/2000th and that was using a Sony A7rII with a focal plane shutter. Tiny lights and extremely light battery with access to loads of modifiers. Each light is 424w/s and fits in your hand. You could carry this battery all day. This is not HSS where it reduces power to achieve high speed sync, but full power flashes when you need to control ambient.

http://www.elinchrom.com/battery/elb400.html

This is unfortunately terrible advice for someone who uses a leaf shutter. HS relies on using a long flash duration, not a short one. This is detriment to what a leaf shutter does. Your advice is sound for someone who uses a focal plane shutter and has a camera that supports Hi-Sync and needs more power than HSS can offer. But it doesn't work well with leaf shutters at all.

 

[jdphoto]

This is unfortunately terrible advice for someone who uses a leaf shutter. HS relies on using a long flash duration, not a short one. This is detriment to what a leaf shutter does. Your advice is sound for someone who uses a focal plane shutter and has a camera that supports Hi-Sync and needs more power than HSS can offer. But it doesn't work well with leaf shutters at all.

Yes, that's correct using the HS head, but the ELB 400 has three heads to choose which works best. The action head shoots t 0.5 @ 1/2800th/sec. A flash duration that is shorter than the shutter speed is required, so full power (424w/s) at 1/1600th is preferable to HSS at a reduced power setting, imo. The OP also wants light, portable full power solutions and the ELB 400 is incredibly portable. I've literally hand held these lights with a small soft box attached while shooting. The ELB 400 has a built in EL Skyport receiver that has almost 700 feet of range. I've used the HS transmitter when shooting with the Sony A7rII( focal plane) and use the EL Skyport transmitter when shooting leaf shutter cameras. The ELB 400 recognizes both transmitters.
B/W photo is using leaf shutters and the color is focal plane.

 

[fotografz]

Uhm, high speed sync is for cameras with focal plane shutters. Leaf shutters and strobes with short flash duration is vastly superior to HSS which uses an enormous amount of power to pulsate x times when a focal plane shutter curtain starts moving...

I agree that leaf shutters with short flash duration is usually superior ... which is why I use a Leica S(006), and all my lenses except one are Leaf Shutter CS versions.

However, Hasselblad chose to use Nikon flash protocols with the X1D which one would assume includes the option to use a Nikon speed-light with HSS. Profoto (and other strobes) make dedicated remote TTL/HSS triggers for Nikon, Canon, Sony, and now others.

That would argue that HSS also works with the X1D leaf-shutter lenses. Why wouldn't it? Also, to use the X1D's 1/2000 leaf-shutter, the strobe has to be set so the t.01 duration is 1/2000 or faster. That usually means less power.

The key is understanding what the OPs desire is. I understood him to want to use the X1D's top 1/2000 shutter ... which could be to enable wider apertures, and/or to freeze action better in certain levels of ambient light.

I use a Profoto B1 and B2 with a Sony AIR TTL/HSS for the above reasons, and the pulsed light has not been a problem because it is being used outdoors to knock back the background and/or shoot with a wider aperture to separate the subject from the background.

The other option is to investigate some of the newer hyper-sync strobe solutions that sync at any speed even at full power.

- Marc

 

[Malina DZ]

Since EL-Skyport & Profoto Air remote controllers were suggested to achieve 1/2000s synchronization, I did a little search on them.
EL-Skyport Transmitter Plus HS: no latency information provided by elinchrom.com.
While browsing through product reviews, I found the answer in Michael Clark's blog post. He writes the following about the Speed Mode:
"Speed Mode: In Speed Mode the backlit screen is glowing red. This mode is designed to be used with leaf shutter lenses offered by Hasselblad or Phase One and allows for shooting up to 1/1,000th second with those camera platforms."
Source: http://blog.michaelclarkphoto.com/?p=4590

Profoto Air Remote: no latency information provided by profoto.com, but they mention in features the following:
"The world’s fastest system for remote radio sync and control, fast enough to match a sync cable and to sync your flash at shutter speeds up to 1/1,600s (if your camera supports it)."

None of these two remotes are able to trigger lights fast enough for the efficient 1/2000s flash synchronization. They can only deliver a portion of the claimed Ws @ 1/2000s exposure time, which might still be enough for a shoot.

So far, an off-camera flash cord is your best option for an efficient 1/2000s leaf shutter flash synching.

 

[DrakeJ]

Yes, that's correct using the HS head, but the ELB 400 has three heads to choose which works best. The action head shoots t 0.5 @ 1/2800th/sec. A flash duration that is shorter than the shutter speed is required, so full power (424w/s) at 1/1600th is preferable to HSS at a reduced power setting, imo. The OP also wants light, portable full power solutions and the ELB 400 is incredibly portable. I've literally hand held these lights with a small soft box attached while shooting. The ELB 400 has a built in EL Skyport receiver that has almost 700 feet of range. I've used the HS transmitter when shooting with the Sony A7rII( focal plane) and use the EL Skyport transmitter when shooting leaf shutter cameras. The ELB 400 recognizes both transmitters.
B/W photo is using leaf shutters and the color is focal plane.

Yeah, I was specifically referring to Hi-Sync which is not the way to go with leaf shutters. ELB-400 with action head's flash duration is 1/2800s t.5 which is about 1/900s t.1. So you probably have to lower power by half (or close to it) to get 1/1600s or 1/2000s. Then you're at the Profoto B1 territory with triggers that are proven to sync at those speeds. But I agree that ELB 400 with the action head is probably a good choice if you can get it to sync properly.

 

[DrakeJ]

I agree that leaf shutters with short flash duration is usually superior ... which is why I use a Leica S(006), and all my lenses except one are Leaf Shutter CS versions.

However, Hasselblad chose to use Nikon flash protocols with the X1D which one would assume includes the option to use a Nikon speed-light with HSS. Profoto (and other strobes) make dedicated remote TTL/HSS triggers for Nikon, Canon, Sony, and now others.

That would argue that HSS also works with the X1D leaf-shutter lenses. Why wouldn't it? Also, to use the X1D's 1/2000 leaf-shutter, the strobe has to be set so the t.01 duration is 1/2000 or faster. That usually means less power.

The key is understanding what the OPs desire is. I understood him to want to use the X1D's top 1/2000 shutter ... which could be to enable wider apertures, and/or to freeze action better in certain levels of ambient light.

I use a Profoto B1 and B2 with a Sony AIR TTL/HSS for the above reasons, and the pulsed light has not been a problem because it is being used outdoors to knock back the background and/or shoot with a wider aperture to separate the subject from the background.

The other option is to investigate some of the newer hyper-sync strobe solutions that sync at any speed even at full power.

- Marc

So here's the thing Marc, even if the X1D could do HSS, which I haven't read that it can even though it supports Nikon flashes, the point is moot.

HSS is a trick to get focal plane shutters to achieve an even exposure across the frame at high shutter speeds and it does this by pulsating. This trick costs a lot of power and makes high powered strobes put out light that you can get from a small speedlight if you didn't need to use HSS.

So the enormous advantage leaf shutters have is that you actually don't have to do HSS or any other form of trickery to get an even exposure using high shutter speeds. And you can, provided the flash duration is short enough, take full advantage of all the power the strobe has to offer.

 

[The Smoking Camera]

Awesome advice.
Spent a fair amount of time researching.
No perfect solution.
Would have loved a speedlight size solution but that technology is probably years away.
For now the Elinchrom ELB 400 Action setup looks like a winner.
Short flash duration with decent power in a relatively small portable size.
Thanks again.

 

[fotografz]

So here's the thing Marc, even if the X1D could do HSS, which I haven't read that it can even though it supports Nikon flashes, the point is moot.

HSS is a trick to get focal plane shutters to achieve an even exposure across the frame at high shutter speeds and it does this by pulsating. This trick costs a lot of power and makes high powered strobes put out light that you can get from a small speedlight if you didn't need to use HSS.

So the enormous advantage leaf shutters have is that you actually don't have to do HSS or any other form of trickery to get an even exposure using high shutter speeds. And you can, provided the flash duration is short enough, take full advantage of all the power the strobe has to offer.

I understand how HSS works, and I am not 100% sure IF the Nikon protocols of the X1D will support HSS ... but if I owned this camera I'd sure find out.

BUT ... this conversation raises the question about HSS use with leaf-shutter systems.

I can tell you that the SF58 speedlight for my Leica S camera HAS to be set to HSS to even work. This is with leaf-shutter lenses. So, the question is ... is HSS just for focal plane shutter cameras?

In thinking about how a leaf-shutter exposes ... you can get a vignetting effect if the shutter exceeds the duration ... pulsing the light output would cure that.

I get that pulsing the light is dividing up the maximum output and reducing the effective light on the subject, however, according to Profoto it is more light than a speed-light can deliver because you are starting with 6 to 7 times more power in the first place.

Interesting questions that I'd like to know more about because this X1D is a camera I'd be interested in in future when I scale down to one kit.

- Marc

 

[Erik Lundqvist]

I bought 2 ELB400 packs with 3 action heads to use with the X1D. Shame I ended up with a GFX instead though

But like previous posters have mentioned the action heads can do full power with a flash duration of 1/2800th of a second so they are a very good fit for the X1D. Please not that this is not using HS (or HSS for that matter).

 

[JoshMerwin]

I trie to skim through all the outings and I realize you want a specific technical achievement from your light, but just curious what subject matter are you shooting with it?

Awesome advice.
Spent a fair amount of time researching.
No perfect solution.
Would have loved a speedlight size solution but that technology is probably years away.
For now the Elinchrom ELB 400 Action setup looks like a winner.
Short flash duration with decent power in a relatively small portable size.
Thanks again.

 

[The Smoking Camera]

One example is a ballerina performing a jeté on a bright sunny day.

I trie to skim through all the outings and I realize you want a specific technical achievement from your light, but just curious what subject matter are you shooting with it?

 

[Malina DZ]

I’m curious to see sample images shot wide open at 1/2000s and iso100, showcasing foreground and/or background OOF rendering when a subject in focus is lit by a flash light.

 

[ErikKaffehr]

A small demo

Hi,

I did a comparison between my Hasselblad 555/ELD and my Sony A7rII using my Godox Wistro AD200.

I think that illustrates the issue well: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60622964

Power	1/125s	1/500s
Full
1/4

It seems very clear that the long duration of the Godox at full power wastes some of the output, even at 1/500s.

As far as I know, there are flash heads designed for short or long duration: Comparing Elinchrom Flash Heads , just as an example.

Best regards
Erik

 

[OleBe]

Hi all,

yesterday I also made a test with my AD600.

Basically for me it is now clear. It does not bring any advantage to turn the flash power further up, showing the flash duration then exposure time of the camera.

Limit for 1/2000 sec is at 1/8th + 0,3 stops power where the AD600 is on about 1/2000 sec flash duration. If you turn the flash up further it even slightly decreases its output.

So if you want to use the flash full power, max exposure time value is 1/200 sec.

Seems I need to investigate what flash I need to change to now to gain all the benefits from the camera.

Somehow fell in love the Broncolor Move 1200 L...


kind regards

Ole

 

[Ben730]

The X1D should have a "Flash Analysis Tool" with the possibility for "Rear Curtain Trim".
This is something I really like and use with the Phase XF System. It allows you to set the flash trigger at the optimal moment.
Regards,
Ben

 

[stngoldberg]

Being really ignorant of flash sync, my method of freezing action is to let the flash freeze the action and allow the shutter to open with enough time to allow the flash to light the scene.
For example if the strobes peak light is 1/2500 of a second and my shutter is set at 1/500 of a second, the scene will be lit and I adjust my f stop and/or the flash intensity. Seems to work for me while photographing ballet
Stanley

 

[michaelclark]

The Elinchrom ELB 400 is a great option for shooting with leaf shutters, as long as you go with the Action flash heads, which have a full power flash duration around 1/2,200th second (t0.5). I have been using both the ELB 400 and the ELB 1200 with the Action flash heads (i.e. fast flash durations) with my Hasselblad with great results!

Cheers, Michael

I would consider the Elinchrom ELB 400 and action head. They also have Hi-Sync technology with the HS head/EL Skyport transmitter with HS that allows full power flashes @ 1/2000th and that was using a Sony A7rII with a focal plane shutter. Tiny lights and extremely light battery with access to loads of modifiers. Each light is 424w/s and fits in your hand. You could carry this battery all day. This is not HSS where it reduces power to achieve high speed sync, but full power flashes when you need to control ambient.

http://www.elinchrom.com/battery/elb400.html

 

[Malina DZ]

I have been using both the ELB 400 and the ELB 1200 with the Action flash heads (i.e. fast flash durations) with my Hasselblad with great results!

Michael, what trigger do you use to sync lights at 1/2000s?

 

[michaelclark]

I have been using the Skyport Plus HS, now called the Skyport Transmitter Pro (same thing just updated). Note that I only have the Hasselblad H5D, which has a top shutter speed of 1/800th second. I have shot with my Elinchrom ELB 400 and 1200 battery-powered strobes using the H6D once, and found no real issues with the Skyport Plus HS/Transmitter Pro as long as I had it in SPEED Mode. If anyone here has tried it with the H6D or X1D I would love to hear their experiences.

Note that the Skyport Transmitter Pro in SPEED mode relays the signal at 2.4 Ghz, so that is just as fast as the Profoto or Broncolor transmitters. But, as has been said here, if issues arise at 1/2,000th second shutter speeds the only other option is a cable.

For me the choice of using Elinchrom is a matter of weatherproofness. As an adventure sports photographer no other strobe can deal with the kind of conditions I am often shooting in like rain, snow, etc. Check out the Elinchrom Adventure School for more on that: https://adventureschool.elinchromus.com

I just got back from an ice climbing shoot and used the Skyport Plus HS transmitter with my ELB 1200 Action heads and it worked great - even when shooting over a hundred feet below the lights in a deep ice canyon. No worries all the way up to 1/800th second. I wish I would have had the H6D as that would have given me more options for the shutter speed.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Michael

Michael, what trigger do you use to sync lights at 1/2000s?