Hasselblad x1d and Short Flash Duration

[The Smoking Camera]

Any recommendations on a relatively portable strobe that has a short flash duration at full power?

Trying to take advantage of the x1d's ability to sync flash at 1/2000 sec.

For example, the Godox AD200 is small, light and relatively powerful at 200Ws.
Unfortunately at full power, flash duration is 1/220 sec which is too slow for the x1d.
It is a little better at half power, with flash duration at 1/869 sec.

The Nikon SB-5000 at full power has flash duration at 1/980 sec which is not bad.
Unfortunately, the power is much lower at about 50 to 60Ws.

Hoping to take advantage of the leaf shutter, small size and sync speed.

Thanks for your help.

 

[mjr]

Hi Joe

I could be wrong but I don't think you need super fast flash duration exactly, you are freezing motion with the camera shutter speed rather than with the flash duration, which is what I have to do with the GFX as I'm limited to 1/125th so it's the flash duration which freezes motion. You need a flash that has a trigger capable of syncing at those speeds, I know the profoto will in speed mode, as will plenty of others I'm sure, especially as I believe the X1D uses a Nikon flash protocol? I am pretty sure that the new generation of flashes coming out for high speed sync are actually just using longer flash durations than normal allowing the shutter speed to do all the work, the trick I think is the flash being able to get to full emitting power quickly enough for the shutter to get all the light when it opens.

Are you looking for on camera or off camera flash, mobile or a more substantial studio setup? I previously used Profoto B1's and B2's with the Phase XF up to 1/1600th and had no problems, both pretty mobile. There seems to be lots of new flash systems around, I use a Hensel strobe kit which is great but definitely not as short as most new systems, if you do want super short then Hensel have the new Cito 500 with a 1/100 000 which is amazingly fast! https://hensel.eu/en/everymomentisyours/

I will add that I'm only on my first coffee and it's very early here so I may be completely wrong in my assessment above on flash durations and shutter speed!

Good luck with the search!

Cheers

Mat

 

[The Smoking Camera]

Thanks Mat. My thinking was similar to yours but here's the issue. Many photographers smarter than I can explain this better so please excuse my oversimplified explanation.

Think of a flash pulse as somewhat of a bell curve with the x-axis as time and y-axis as output. Therefore the width of the bell curve is the flash duration in time. Flash durations vary significantly but typically range from 1/250 sec to 1/10,000 sec depending on the power or output setting. Generally, the greater the output the longer the flash duration or wider the bell curve.

Now if the shutter speed is long enough to encompass the entire bell curve, then the full flash output is captured. This is normally always the case at camera shutter speeds in the 1/200 or 1/250 sec range and slower. However, if the shutter speed is faster and thus shorter than the flash duration then only a portion of the bell curve or flash output is captured. The result is clipping or underutilization of the flash and the subject matter is darker. How dark depends on the amount of clipping.

This is what can happen with a leaf shutter at higher speeds such as 1/1600 or 1/2000 sec. Essentially, the shutter speed can be so fast there is not enough time to capture the entire flash output. And this is more of a problem at full flash power where flash duration is typically much slower. Of course, there are other issues such as triggering delay which can also cause clipping.

Bottom line is to maximize the capability of a leaf shutter I'm trying to find a strobe that at full power will produce a flash duration or bell curve 1/2000 sec or faster. In this way the fast shutter speed of the x1d such as 1/2000 sec can sync and capture the full flash output.

Hope this makes sense.

Hi Joe

I could be wrong but I don't think you need super fast flash duration exactly, you are freezing motion with the camera shutter speed rather than with the flash duration, which is what I have to do with the GFX as I'm limited to 1/125th so it's the flash duration which freezes motion. You need a flash that has a trigger capable of syncing at those speeds, I know the profoto will in speed mode, as will plenty of others I'm sure, especially as I believe the X1D uses a Nikon flash protocol? I am pretty sure that the new generation of flashes coming out for high speed sync are actually just using longer flash durations than normal allowing the shutter speed to do all the work, the trick I think is the flash being able to get to full emitting power quickly enough for the shutter to get all the light when it opens.

Are you looking for on camera or off camera flash, mobile or a more substantial studio setup? I previously used Profoto B1's and B2's with the Phase XF up to 1/1600th and had no problems, both pretty mobile. There seems to be lots of new flash systems around, I use a Hensel strobe kit which is great but definitely not as short as most new systems, if you do want super short then Hensel have the new Cito 500 with a 1/100 000 which is amazingly fast! https://hensel.eu/en/everymomentisyours/

I will add that I'm only on my first coffee and it's very early here so I may be completely wrong in my assessment above on flash durations and shutter speed!

Good luck with the search!

Cheers

Mat

 

[mjr]

I agree Joe, I mentioned the trick being to get the flash to full power quick enough so that when the camera fires it captures all the available light, I still think the duration is irrelevant as long as it has reached it's power quick enough, I can understand that longer flash duration may mean slower ramp up to full power in which case the shutter has fired before that point has been reached though. I know from practical use with the B1's that flash duration at full power is I think 1/1000th and I could get properly exposed images at 1/1600th with the Phase but accept that that may be entirely down to my exposure not requiring all the power and I simply wasn't aware that I was capturing less light than if I had had a shutter speed at 1/1000.

I think modern systems that do HSS with dslr's must have a very quick ramp up to full power in order to allow fast shutter speeds like that.

All good fun, happy to learn new things!

Mat

 

[DrakeJ]

What kind of power do you wish to have available at 1/2000th of a second?

Most modern strobe designs have longer flash durations the higher power you use. As stated previously in the thread, a flash duration is spread out over time, and if you have a faster shutter than the flash duration, it will expose evenly but cut down on the light. Color can also be slightly off which is caused by the colors not coming out evenly over time when a strobe fires. That's my unscientific explanation anyway.

It's easy to test this with your current strobes if you have a leaf shutter, simply test the different power levels and fire off frames (don't forget to adjust aperture) and see where you begin to lose exposure.

Anyway, as an example. A profoto b1 in freeze mode will give you a flash duration under 1/1600s up to about 8.5 in power, which translates to about 190Ws. Go above that and it will give you a bit more power, but not a whole lot more and not in a linear fashion. I.e. 9 in power will not give you 250Ws. And your color might be slightly off (though I haven't tested how much, it's probably more of an issue if you use max power).

Check graphs here for more information: https://captureintegration.com/high...-phase-one-xf-and-leaf-shutter-lenses-part-1/

 

[med]

I agree Joe, I mentioned the trick being to get the flash to full power quick enough so that when the camera fires it captures all the available light, I still think the duration is irrelevant as long as it has reached it's power quick enough, I can understand that longer flash duration may mean slower ramp up to full power in which case the shutter has fired before that point has been reached though. I know from practical use with the B1's that flash duration at full power is I think 1/1000th and I could get properly exposed images at 1/1600th with the Phase but accept that that may be entirely down to my exposure not requiring all the power and I simply wasn't aware that I was capturing less light than if I had had a shutter speed at 1/1000.

I think modern systems that do HSS with dslr's must have a very quick ramp up to full power in order to allow fast shutter speeds like that.

All good fun, happy to learn new things!

Mat

I think the flash duration still matters, as the longer the duration the more of the power is spread across the ramp up and ramp down. The more power you can get surrounding the peak output, as well as timing that peak output to be while the shutter is open of course, the more photons you will capture.

A lower powered light with a faster duration will generally get you more light than a higher powered light with a slower duration.

The 1/1000s quoted for the B1 is the t0.5 time, which is only half the power (and typically approximately 1/3 of the t.1 value)... the duration for it to dump all 500w/s is 1/400. With a shutter speed of 1/2000 you would be getting approximately 1/4 of the full power pop, or about 125 w/s.

Now if you go to a lower powered light with a faster duration at full power, such as the D1 Air 250, which has a published t.5 time of 1/3700 (or approximately 1/1200 for t.1) then the entire 250 w/s pop would reach the sensor at a shutter speed of 1/1000, and more than half at 1/2000.

Counterintuitive, but the lower powered light will be more powerful at fast shutter speeds, giving you slightly more ability to overpower the sun.

 

[The Smoking Camera]

I think the flash duration still matters, as the longer the duration the more of the power is spread across the ramp up and ramp down. The more power you can get surrounding the peak output, as well as timing that peak output to be while the shutter is open of course, the more photons you will capture.

A lower powered light with a faster duration will generally get you more light than a higher powered light with a slower duration.

The 1/1000s quoted for the B1 is the t0.5 time, which is only half the power (and typically approximately 1/3 of the t.1 value)... the duration for it to dump all 500w/s is 1/400. With a shutter speed of 1/2000 you would be getting approximately 1/4 of the full power pop, or about 125 w/s.

Now if you go to a lower powered light with a faster duration at full power, such as the D1 Air 250, which has a published t.5 time of 1/3700 (or approximately 1/1200 for t.1) then the entire 250 w/s pop would reach the sensor at a shutter speed of 1/1000, and more than half at 1/2000.

Counterintuitive, but the lower powered light will be more powerful at fast shutter speeds, giving you slightly more ability to overpower the sun.

Counterintuitive, but exactly right Med.
Explanation well done.
D1 (which I own) would work great - unfortunately requires a huge battery.
Looking for a portable alternative.

 

[Malina DZ]

Both AD200 & SB-5000 can to the job for leaf shutter syncing @ 1/2000s with former at a higher Ws. AD200 seems to be the best option for the money. I'm not aware of a more compact & powerful unit @ flash duration of 1/2000s. Would love to know what OP decides to go with for X1D.
Those who choose wireless route will face another dilemma of a radio trigger latency (radio propagation). Unfortunately, manufactures don't publish latency numbers for their products. AFAIK, it's mostly above 620 μs (microseconds), so reaching 1/2000s sync speed is quite challenging.

 

[DrakeJ]

Both AD200 & SB-5000 can to the job for leaf shutter syncing @ 1/2000s with former at a higher Ws. AD200 seems to be the best option for the money. I'm not aware of a more compact & powerful unit @ flash duration of 1/2000s. Would love to know what OP decides to go with for X1D.
Those who choose wireless route will face another dilemma of a radio trigger latency (radio propagation). Unfortunately, manufactures don't publish latency numbers for their products. AFAIK, it's mostly above 620 μs (microseconds), so reaching 1/2000s sync speed is quite challenging.

I agree, to get this to actually work you need to consider the triggers, it needs to be a complete package.

However, AD200 and SB-5000 have long flash durations at full power, 1/220s (I'm guessing t.1, haven't seen it specified) and 1/320s (my guesstimate t.1, t.5 is specified to 1/980s).

So these two won't sync at 1/2000s except at low power.

The D1 Air 250 is one of the few strobes that actually gets faster the higher power it is set to, but it's not battery powered so not especially mobile. The Profoto B1 is not too far off for all intents and purposes, I'd rather go with the B1.

If I needed short flash durations with no possibility of having access to a power outlet, I'd probably rent a Broncolor Move pack, at 1200Ws it has a duration of 1/350s at 1200Ws, if we generalize it probably has a duration of 1/700s at 600Ws and 1/1400s at 300Ws. All those durations are at t.1.

 

[jvpictures]

If I needed short flash durations with no possibility of having access to a power outlet, I'd probably rent a Broncolor Move pack, at 1200Ws it has a duration of 1/350s at 1200Ws, if we generalize it probably has a duration of 1/700s at 600Ws and 1/1400s at 300Ws. All those durations are at t.1.

to have it correct, Broncolor Move renders:

level 10 1200 Ws 1/375 sec
level 9 600 Ws 1/975 sec
level 8 300 Ws 1/2300 sec

etc. flash duration on t=0.1 with minimum speed.

If more power needed just use 2 lamps (or shoot at higher ISO), the Move has 2 fully independent channels at max 600 Ws each. Thus, for a 1/2000 shutter speed 2 lamps at level 8 renders 600 Ws. It actually works well and it is a wonderful combination (H's leaf shutter and Broncolor), albeith not cheap.

 

[mjr]

All interesting stuff, I have to admit not knowing much about the technical side, I think that's clear! I just fire the shutter and worry about it when I can't get what I want so great reading this stuff.

A general question for you guys, do flash heads ramp up to their highest output and then immediately ramp down again? As in the longer durations are entirely ramp up and ramp down, or are they holding the peak output for longer? I am wondering if they can act in a way like short duration constant lighting if that makes sense, like they fire and within the 1/250th of a second of output, you could take a couple of shots at 1/2000 and get the full output of light in each shot, providing your camera can shoot quick enough? Or is the full output only captured if you contain the ramp up and down again? Even reading this it is not entirely clear what I mean and I know what I want to say! Haha. The reason I ask is that I am not sure I understand the importance of the flash doing it's full cycle of up and down within the shutter being open, can't it just be up to full power, the shot is captured and then the drop off can be outside the capture? So if for example you have a very fast ramp up to full power, fast enough for the camera to register its shot, the duration would matter less because all you'd be cutting off is the drop off?

Just trying to understand a little more, every day is a school day!

Mat

 

[DrakeJ]

Thanks jvpictures! I was trying to get more detailed stats but couldn't find any by quickly googling the subject

 

[DrakeJ]

All interesting stuff, I have to admit not knowing much about the technical side, I think that's clear! I just fire the shutter and worry about it when I can't get what I want so great reading this stuff.

A general question for you guys, do flash heads ramp up to their highest output and then immediately ramp down again? As in the longer durations are entirely ramp up and ramp down, or are they holding the peak output for longer? I am wondering if they can act in a way like short duration constant lighting if that makes sense, like they fire and within the 1/250th of a second of output, you could take a couple of shots at 1/2000 and get the full output of light in each shot, providing your camera can shoot quick enough? Or is the full output only captured if you contain the ramp up and down again? Even reading this it is not entirely clear what I mean and I know what I want to say! Haha. The reason I ask is that I am not sure I understand the importance of the flash doing it's full cycle of up and down within the shutter being open, can't it just be up to full power, the shot is captured and then the drop off can be outside the capture? So if for example you have a very fast ramp up to full power, fast enough for the camera to register its shot, the duration would matter less because all you'd be cutting off is the drop off?

Just trying to understand a little more, every day is a school day!

Mat

The answers you are looking for can be found here:

http://strobist.blogspot.se/2010/06/rise-and-fall-of-machines-understanding.html

 

[jvpictures]

if cutting of the flash on the ending side you might ran into color issues. At the beginning the flash is colder and at the end warmer yielding -in this case- an average color temp of 5500 kelvin. Thus you see sometimes a more blueish color tone from speedlights when in high speed mode

 

[mjr]

Interesting, thanks for the links, so in order to maintain a decent colour balance, in an ideal world, you'd want the flash to do it's entire cycle, within the duration of the exposure. In theory then, if you took for example a couple of shots within a single flash cycle, you'd end up with each being a little different in colour and then gradually dropping off in light intensity as the light drops. It's not relevant to anything I do but interesting to know. I have obviously seen strobe effect within a single exposure by the flash pulsing quickly, wondered if it would work the same way if you captured multiple shots within 1 flash output, like a reverse strobe effect! Obviously not.

Anyway, thanks for sharing the knowledge! Sorry for taking this off topic, I hope you find the right kit for the X1D.

Mat

 

[The Smoking Camera]

Really useful information. And I'm very appreciative for everyone's input.

Ultimately, my goal is to take advantage of the x1d's small size and portability on location with the smallest strobe possible that takes advantage of the 1/2000 sec leaf shutter sync speed. And I really don't want to lug the Profoto D1 and Batpac.

My research continues.

 

[DrakeJ]

Really useful information. And I'm very appreciative for everyone's input.

Ultimately, my goal is to take advantage of the x1d's small size and portability on location with the smallest strobe possible that takes advantage of the 1/2000 sec leaf shutter sync speed. And I really don't want to lug the Profoto D1 and Batpac.

My research continues.

Ultimately we still need to know what you consider a small strobe and the power output you need to have available at 1/2000s.

 

[fotografz]

I've only had one cup of coffee so far, so I hope I get this right ... LOL!

Since you already have some Profoto, were I you, I'd investigate the new Profoto B1X. It is self contained and will cover your 1/2000 shutter speed when used in HSS Mode.

Flash duration t0.1 (peak) in Freeze mode is 1/400s @ 500Ws to 1/8000s @ a weak 2 W/s. However, matching the camera's 1/2000s shutter-speed with a 1/2000th duration should put your delivered power level much better than the average speed-light set to full power ... while using far less battery and increasing recycle time considerably.

Your Hassey uses Nikon flash protocols, so I assume I'd the Profoto AIR TTL/HSS Nikon Remote will work on your camera, but I'd double check it.

Here's a consideration ... used straight up (not HSS) in "speed" mode, Profoto says the AIR remote will sync to 1/1000 with leaf shutter lenses. To exceed that you have to hard-wire the camera to the strobe. Some debate that, but it is what I've been able to get out of the Profoto info. It proved to be true when I used my Leica S with CS lenses which sync down to 1/1000. If I use the remote without setting it to speed, it underexposes. Set to the speed setting it is right on when using 1/1000 shutter on the camera as long as I do not exceed the flash duration to much.

It may be that you can use the AIR remote straight set to Speed Mode, and live with the slight vignetting at 1/2000 shutter because of the way leaf-shutters work. It is very easy to correct leaf-shutter vignetting with software.

Off for my second cup of Java ...

- Marc

 

[DrakeJ]

I've only had one cup of coffee so far, so I hope I get this right ... LOL!

Since you already have some Profoto, were I you, I'd investigate the new Profoto B1X. It is self contained and will cover your 1/2000 shutter speed when used in HSS Mode.

Flash duration t0.1 (peak) in Freeze mode is 1/400s @ 500Ws to 1/8000s @ a weak 2 W/s. However, matching the camera's 1/2000s shutter-speed with a 1/2000th duration should put your delivered power level much better than the average speed-light set to full power ... while using far less battery and increasing recycle time considerably.

Your Hassey uses Nikon flash protocols, so I assume I'd the Profoto AIR TTL/HSS Nikon Remote will work on your camera, but I'd double check it.

Here's a consideration ... used straight up (not HSS) in "speed" mode, Profoto says the AIR remote will sync to 1/1000 with leaf shutter lenses. To exceed that you have to hard-wire the camera to the strobe. Some debate that, but it is what I've been able to get out of the Profoto info. It proved to be true when I used my Leica S with CS lenses which sync down to 1/1000. If I use the remote without setting it to speed, it underexposes. Set to the speed setting it is right on when using 1/1000 shutter on the camera as long as I do not exceed the flash duration to much.

It may be that you can use the AIR remote straight set to Speed Mode, and live with the slight vignetting at 1/2000 shutter because of the way leaf-shutters work. It is very easy to correct leaf-shutter vignetting with software.

Off for my second cup of Java ...

- Marc

Uhm, high speed sync is for cameras with focal plane shutters. Leaf shutters and strobes with short flash duration is vastly superior to HSS which uses an enormous amount of power to pulsate x times when a focal plane shutter curtain starts moving...

 

[med]

Really useful information. And I'm very appreciative for everyone's input.

Ultimately, my goal is to take advantage of the x1d's small size and portability on location with the smallest strobe possible that takes advantage of the 1/2000 sec leaf shutter sync speed. And I really don't want to lug the Profoto D1 and Batpac.

My research continues.

It isn't a HUGE weight savings, but the Vagabond Mini Lithium from Paul Buff works fine with the D1s (provided they are in battery mode). The VML is considerably smaller and lighter than the Batpac....

Here is a fun article about the combination, which was used specifically for the short flash duration along with a leaf shutter lens.