Phase 1 IQ150/250/350 as Tech backs

[aztwang]

So never dipping my toe in the Tech camera waters, I am unsure of the versatility
of this combination. I understand lens choice has an effect of this as well but am curious
do I have room for much movement or is this a no go combo?? Hoping there are some of you that have tried this that can comment.....

Cheers

Don

 

[kdphotography]

I thought you had the IQ3 100, Don?

It's a lot less expensive to simply buy a tech cam platform and buy the MFDB plate adapter. But then again, this is Dante's forum, so who am I to judge if you want to buy a second MFDB. It is, afterall, much easier to have two MFDBs so you avoid the onerous trouble of having to swap between two camera platforms. :ROTFL:

 

[GrahamWelland]

Well, you'll read from some folks all about cross talk, LCCs etc etc with the CMOS IQx50 backs. Personally, I didn't have any issues using the IQ150 with my Alpa and Cambo technical cameras. There is some advantage in terms of extra movements available with the 44x33mm sensor (although it guess it depends on your lens choices too).

With the latest generation of Capture One Pro the LCC algorithms are both fast and very effective.

The outstanding live view available with the CMOS backs really made shooting technical cameras an even better joy. It made the use of the Cambo Actus DB+ a practical choice too as this absolutely requires decent live view to operate effectively. For normal technical cameras you can get along fine with focus distance scales & tilt shoot/review cycles.

Other than the lack of the electronic shutter in the IQ3100, the IQx50 series works as well but just with a smaller sensor IMHO. If I were to want a second MFDB for tech camera use I wouldn't hesitate to go with the IQx50 series.

 

[aztwang]

I thought you had the IQ3 100, Don?

It's a lot less expensive to simply buy a tech cam platform and buy the MFDB plate adapter. But then again, this is Dante's forum, so who am I to judge if you want to buy a second MFDB. It is, afterall, much easier to have two MFDBs so you avoid the onerous trouble of having to swap between two camera platforms. :ROTFL:

You're one funny guy Ken!!!LOL...I actually have a 3100 on my XF right now, unfortunately its a loaner as my IQ250 is in the shop and I must admit having the 100 for the last couple weeks has been a joy, but for what I do the 50 is just fine. So the question about a 250 on a tech cam would be reality for me....just not sure what my limitations would be.

I would like to see a 50mp full frame...Not sure of the mathematics but do you think 50mp on a full frame improves on the IQ and color???...moving towards that "Fat Pixel style"??......It know it almost seems like a step backwards and I doubt for such a small production number that the sensor would ever be produced due to production costs but it sounds cool in theory.

Cheers

Don

 

[kdphotography]

Only one way to find out--- try your MFDB on a tech cam. Have CI send out a Cambo and HR40 along with your IQ250 when it is ready. Or if you want to go the Alpa route, Steve has his STC for sale here: https://www.getdpi.com/forum/gear-fs-or-wtb/62591-alpa-stc.html

CI in Carmel 2018 is another great venue to try out equipment. Dates are set for March 1-4, 2018. Registration open soon.

 

[Paul2660]

Hi Don,

You will probably not ever see a 50MP in "full frame" but I guess anything is possible.

IQ150, on tech camera, my thoughts.

For me a tech camera is mainly used for movements to create a short pano, so I am looking to shift on Acra 15mm or 20mm (with Acra rotated). Tilt is also important for DOF of foreground subjects. I used the following lenses:

28mm Rodenstock HR Pink Band
35mm Schneider
40mm Rodenstock HR-W
60mm Schneider
90mm Rodenstock HR Pink Band
120mm Schneider non macro

All on Arca rm3di

Difference in subject distance, between cropped sensor and "full Frame" like IQ260 for me was around 12 physical steps or around 10 feet. So to get the same framing, I had to move back 10 to 12 feet with the IQ150.

On the 28mm, the smaller IC of 70mm still comes into play pretty quickly, and you start to see a hard vignette by 8mm or so of shift horizontal. Rise and Fall, you might get 10mm. Center shows a good bit of pink/magenta and any shift past 3mm really the shifted portion is very red, which quite a bit of loss in overall saturation. LCC does a good job in cleaning up the color cast, but on the 28mm some still shows on edges of shifts and sometimes on even center frame. When you view the image on camera LCD, the shifted portions can start to look like B&W due to the hard loss in overall saturation. There is enough loss that your first thought is that it can't be recovered, however C1 pulls enough back that you have to really hunt to see the fall off. BTW this is with the CF on the 28mm, with it off the effects are much worse IMO.

35mm Schneider allowed shift to around 10mm, with quite a bit of harsh magenta on the edges. LCC cleans up nicely, and CF was always used.

40mm Rodenstock, was a dream, easily could go to 20mm of shift, there was quite a bit of red shift and saturation loss by 12mm to 20mm, but again the LCC seeminly recovers most if not all.

60mm Schneider, has the least amount of magenta color on center and again was easily shifted to 20mm. The harsh red edges of shifted files was not as bad as on the 40mm, and I felt that over all it was the best lens on the IQ150. when I could use it. I also had the CF on the 60mm.

90mm Rodenstock and 120mm Schneider are wonderful, can be shifted up to 25mm, albeit my 90 being an HR pink band did start to show some smearing past 20mm. LCC again works very well.

One issue that is not mentioned much, is the vertical banding, that is very visible on a lighter subject, say blue sky or white/grey subject. This is not like microlens ripple which is very straight and uniformed, instead the banding was much more wavy. I pointed this out to my dealer as soon as I tried the 150, they took it back to P1, P1's only comment was the 50mp back was not designed around a tech camera thus there will be some compromises. NOTE, same issue happened with the 100mp, and again P1 did not catch it. However in later LCC updates they did make a fix for the 100MP backs, but I don't believe it was ever dropped down to the 50MP. I state this because I have used 10.1 on some of the 50MP files I still have from testing and I still see the banding. It is made much more noticeable with clarity or contrast added to skies. On the 100MP backs, I believe it's fixed. EDIT: I just reworked a quick set from the IQ150, and the banding I mention was clearly visible in the LCC before processing, however after working on it in C1 10.2 the banding does appear gone, so P1 must have worked on this some more.

With all this said, I did not purchase the 50MP mainly due to the crop factor, as I mainly use wides and many times I could not move back 10 to 12 feet without compromising my shot. Live View is a huge bonus and with a tech camera even greater. Knowing that the image is in focus for sure via the P1 LCD LiveView was a huge advantage over my IQ260 and really made it hard to stay with that back. Wifi on the 260 was never that good, at least on mine, and it's not available on the IQ150.

The 3 attachments below are an example from a 15mm shift to the right with the 40mm Rodenstock. You can see the LCC as taken, then processed, (very nice overall) and the 2nd series shows the actual image before LCC is applied, the image takes on a noticeable red cast on the right far edge, but not as bad as I remember. The LCC applies very clean and pretty much evens out the shot for both light loss and color cast, noticeable in the water and on the rocks. The last shot is just a bit of work up to get the shot closer to where I want it.


I really can't see P1 making a back just devoted to a tech camera due to sales numbers, but anything is possible I guess.

Paul Caldwell

 

[voidshatter]

It's still the only back I use for my technical camera. LCC cleans up very well.

Rodenstock 23HR + 44x33 is actually wider than Rodenstock 32HR + fullframe 645 sensor, while the latter combo does not work well for long exposure (filter, noise).

For the reasons above, there is no better replacement for me and I still use the IQ250 in 2017.

However, don't expect this back to bring much bragging rights over the internet.

 

[med]

Pardon if this is a stupid question, but I haven't been able to dig up this info anywhere... I have played with LCC in Capture One with the sample files from DT/CI but have never been able to ascertain how they are actually created... they seem to be shot after every image by putting something translucent over the lens (similar to a WhiBal if I am not mistaken)...

What is the actual process for obtaiing the LCC image? It seems cumbersome (of course using a tech cam is already cumbersome to some degree).

I am currently using an older Leaf Aptus 22 that doesn't have any colour cast issues or falloff that needs correcting, but would love to step up to a CMOS back one day for the Live view (and other benefits), but it seems like it will be more complicate in some respects. Is an LLC image necessary for every image shot with a tech cam pretty much, with or without movements?

 

[Paul2660]

The LCC is taken with a transparent sheet of white plastic. P1 used to ship it with the back I still use the P1 piece.

Place the plastic over the lens, and take the shot. You will have to adjust exposure usually.

Paul Caldwell

 

[tylerallenmohr]

After (what I thought was) a good amount of research I recently bought a second hand IQ250 to use with my Alpa TC. I'm new to tech cams as well as MF but have been trying to educate myself as much as possible on the various intricacies that differ from my Nikon D800e system.

It was only after the purchase of the back that I stumbled on some of the older threads on this site that touched on a number of negative attributes of using the IQ250 with tech cams specifically. My MF system will be a single lens setup at first, including the Rodenstock 23mm (Alpagon version). My heart sank a little reading that due to the sensor's microlenses I could run into various issues with such a wide lens. The scorn kept on coming with contempt for the crop sensor, and lack of ES, etc... But I have been telling myself that it's going to be a big step up for me in terms of capability, and continued education in the art of photography, and that I didn't buy it as the end all be all. In the end it will be my gateway.

It seems that since this particular DB has been on the market that it has gained some acceptance and has it's place among users in this community. With all that said, I'm greatly looking forward to getting out in the field and gaining practical experience with the new combination of pieces in my kit.

For the record, I will continue to use my Nikon system primarily for commercial work unless the situation calls for another approach. Diving into the 'Dante's realm' is purely a personal pursuit and will likely require a bit of trial and error as I become familiar with a slightly different approach to creating images.

 

[aztwang]

It's still the only back I use for my technical camera. LCC cleans up very well.

Rodenstock 23HR + 44x33 is actually wider than Rodenstock 32HR + fullframe 645 sensor, while the latter combo does not work well for long exposure (filter, noise).

For the reasons above, there is no better replacement for me and I still use the IQ250 in 2017.

However, don't expect this back to bring much bragging rights over the internet.

Bragging rights...Pff who gives a $%%. I love the QI250, its still the same sensor thats being offered today so for argument sakes its still current. I am learning more as I dig, and
it's not a bad choice, plenty of movement in most cases. We'll see

Cheers

Don

 

[voidshatter]

Bragging rights...Pff who gives a $%%. I love the QI250, its still the same sensor thats being offered today so for argument sakes its still current. I am learning more as I dig, and
it's not a bad choice, plenty of movement in most cases. We'll see

Cheers

Don

Well, the fact is that people communicate in these forums to share experience, and in this process people in the loop always feel itchy to upgrade :grin: For how many times would I get dismissed the IQ250 is a cropped sensor and the size is too small? :scry: I still love my IQ250 and it's still my best option regardless of money, but it's definitely not something to stun the crowd!

A real photographer may not need to lurk in these gear forums at all - he may be busy shooting pictures all day and doesn't care about gear upgrades.

I'd say perhaps 90% of the real purpose of gear upgrade would be for the superiority of browsing the internet, 5% to impress the client, and the last 5% for real-world quality-of-life improvements. :grin:

 

[dougpeterson]

After (what I thought was) a good amount of research I recently bought a second hand IQ250 to use with my Alpa TC. I'm new to tech cams as well as MF but have been trying to educate myself as much as possible on the various intricacies that differ from my Nikon D800e system.

It was only after the purchase of the back that I stumbled on some of the older threads on this site that touched on a number of negative attributes of using the IQ250 with tech cams specifically. My MF system will be a single lens setup at first, including the Rodenstock 23mm (Alpagon version). My heart sank a little reading that due to the sensor's microlenses I could run into various issues with such a wide lens. The scorn kept on coming with contempt for the crop sensor, and lack of ES, etc...

UGH You're killing me! It literally pains me to read a post like this.

Working at a dealer, it is literally my job to help people with searches/decisions like this, and hearing someone "stumble across" important considerations after buying used from a private seller is my worst nightmere. It's especially hurtful as I spent dozens of hours on the most comprehensive test of the IQ250 on tech cameras.

I hope that if you consider any medium format purchases in the future you will consider reaching out and working with a dealer so that, by the time you make your decision, you're fully aware of all the pros and cons of the equipment you're investing in.

 

[Paul2660]

Th IQ250 is a great back for sure. But I do have wonder why P1 did allow for the ES as it makes a huge advantage for long glass and for sure tech camera work. It's not offered on the 350 either last time I checked.

The fact that other companies using the same sensor found a way to implement ES using the same sensor makes it apparent that the decision was a P1 call.

Paul Caldwell

 

[tylerallenmohr]

UGH You're killing me! It literally pains me to read a post like this.

Working at a dealer, it is literally my job to help people with searches/decisions like this, and hearing someone "stumble across" important considerations after buying used from a private seller is my worst nightmere. It's especially hurtful as I spent dozens of hours on the most comprehensive test of the IQ250 on tech cameras.

I hope that if you consider any medium format purchases in the future you will consider reaching out and working with a dealer so that, by the time you make your decision, you're fully aware of all the pros and cons of the equipment you're investing in.

Doug,

Thanks for commenting. I have read many of your posts and know you're very knowledgable in this area. Yet, for some reason I didn't even think to reach out with questions. In the future, I'll try and remember you're here as a valuable resource.

 

[dougpeterson]

However, don't expect this back to bring much bragging rights over the internet.

Oddly I agree with Void!

If you buy cameras to have bragging rights I suggest against an IQX 50mp. Actually I'd suggest against cameras in general. If you want to brag about how much money you have by buying something I suggest either artwork (to better the life of an artist) or a personal psychologist (to better your own life). But we all have different views on the pursuit of materials goods.

If you buy cameras as tools of commerce or tools of expression or tools of remembrance then the IQX 50mp is still as a great an option as it was when it launched; better actually as numerous tools have been added to the back, body, and Capture One since they launched.

Back to the OP: as a tech camera back on the PRO side it offers excellent live view, a built in battery, mature tech camera triggering capability and compatibility with Capture One which has the most mature lens cast correction. On the NEGATIVE side It generates a strong color cast with lenses with strong ray angles (most notably Schneider symmetrical wides like the 35XL, especially with movement) including color cast that can't be fully corrected. As usual the best option is to work with a dealer who has expertise on tech cameras and digital backs and can help show you relevant raws (and arrange for you to do your own tests).

 

[med]

The LCC is taken with a transparent sheet of white plastic. P1 used to ship it with the back I still use the P1 piece.

Place the plastic over the lens, and take the shot. You will have to adjust exposure usually.

Paul Caldwell

Thank you Paul! Is adjusting the exposure done by changing the aperture or shutter speed? Or does it matter? I am unsure which of the two would affect the LCC...

 

[dchew]

Thank you Paul! Is adjusting the exposure done by changing the aperture or shutter speed? Or does it matter? I am unsure which of the two would affect the LCC...

You should adjust the shutter speed. Changing the aperture would affect the LCC. LCC’s are affected by lens, focus, aperture, shift, tilt (debatable) and of course sensor.

Dave

 

[Paul2660]

Great question, adjust the exposure as aperture would possible change your DOF or create focus shift. Usually it's about 1 stop to 1 and half stops. When you make the exposure you are looking for a histogram in the middle of the graph. The histogram is your friend when taking an LCC. Also, over the years, this has become my process. I generally only take one set of LCC's per setup or scene unless I have changed the amount of movement (shift or rise/fall), or if the light changes dramatically. Adding 1 degree or less of tilt doesn't require a separate LCC.

Since I use the Acra and it had no click stops for shift, I take the LCC immediately after the exposure.

Paul Caldwell

 

[med]

Thanks to both of you! I figured ONE of them would affect the colour cast/fall off.

I am on the verge of buying my first tech camera and want to make sure I know as much as possible regarding my future once I upgrade to a modern CMOS back. The 250/350 could be in the cards for me this year so I am following this thread closely!