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The 'ghost' review reappears

Paul2660

Well-known member
DxO's official claim is that the initial report was not complete, thus they pulled it. They also claimed that they were going to focus more on the more affordable camera systems, mainly 35mm.

Personally, I believe there was more to it.

Per the host of FujiRumors, he approached DxOMark about reviewing the GFX and their initial response was they don't review X-trans cameras, net they had not even read about the camera and assumed all Fuji Cameras were x-trans, which of course the GFX is not (thank you Fuji).

I like their reviews, and there is no doubt the 645Z more than likely should be the same score as the X1D, and 1 point, is not very much anyway, but the files from the Z are still amazing, have always been, and considering that C1 still won't support the Z, leaving Adobe, means even more. The current LR conversions for the GFX and D850 are lacking, very lacking IMO. C1 does a better job on both color and noise at least from what I have seen from my work.

Hopefully Pentax will carry the line forward, but I have doubts, as Ricoh, appears to be headed in a different direction. New lenses are really needed for both the Pentax 645 lineup and 35mm Line up.

(Side Note, Pentax/Ricoh had a huge opportunity to really take some market share with the K1 and pixel shift. However Pentax never pushed Adobe to fix their one and done raw conversion and I guess hoped that users were going to be happy with SilkyPix. They also should have worked with P1/C1 and gotten a conversion worked out with Capture One. It's not that hard obviously as Independent software producers like Iridient and Rawtherape both have excellent conversions, vastly superior to Adobe's terrible attempt, but both lack the tool set I am looking for).

Paul Caldwell
 

D&A

Well-known member
Paul Wrote--->>>"Hopefully Pentax will carry the line forward, but I have doubts, as Ricoh, appears to be headed in a different direction"<<<

It's hard to predict but when the first 645D was announced, years passed before the product was brought to fruition. Finances among other things was the primary reason but eventually its showed up. Then during the last 18 months of the 645D run, little was heard from Pentax about a successor to that camera or support for the system. It was around the time Ricoh was acquiring Pentax. Many thought back then that it was probably the end of Pentax's involvement in medium format digital. Then along came the 645Z and some subsequent new lenses and a roadmap (which of course hasn't been adhered to). I think it's hard to make an assessment one way or another what direction the system might take. Time will tell.

Dave (D&A)
 

tsjanik

Well-known member
Interesting that it should appear now. In any event, some editing is needed, as the following is in their description, "There’s no optical low-pass filter over the sensor, but there’s an AA filter simulator that uses a sensor-shifting Shake Reduction system if moiré patterning is an issue." Were it true!
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Paul Wrote--->>>"Hopefully Pentax will carry the line forward, but I have doubts, as Ricoh, appears to be headed in a different direction"<<<

It's hard to predict but when the first 645D was announced, years passed before the product was brought to fruition. Finances among other things was the primary reason but eventually its showed up. Then during the last 18 months of the 645D run, little was heard from Pentax about a successor to that camera or support for the system. It was around the time Ricoh was acquiring Pentax. Many thought back then that it was probably the end of Pentax's involvement in medium format digital. Then along came the 645Z and some subsequent new lenses and a roadmap (which of course hasn't been adhered to). I think it's hard to make an assessment one way or another what direction the system might take. Time will tell.

Dave (D&A)
For me the issue is simple, Fuji and Hasselblad. Both have the same sensor, in a mirrorless platform, much less weight, and IMO more modern features. With 100MP for both coming next year, it's these two companies I would be watching. The cost of the X1D, and some basic design features kept me away from it, however the Fuji is priced very close to the current 645Z and much less massive. Fuji and Hasselblad have totally embraced the future and both have come out with excellent options. The elephant in the room is P1. I am sure outwardly sales at P1 have never been better as always, but with 100MP comes out next year, with a 8K to 9K price point, things may get different.

Paul Caldwell
 

D&A

Well-known member
>>>"There’s no optical low-pass filter over the sensor, but there’s an AA filter simulator that uses a sensor-shifting Shake Reduction system if moiré patterning is an issue."<<<

Tom, I picked up this statement too and thought it was strange.

I initially gave DXo the benefit of the doubt, when they first held back publishing their 645Z test, thinking they might have wanted to wait to test out at least another brand 50mp medium format camera, in order to have something to compare it to....apples to apples, so to speak.

I recall about a year ago reading something about Pentax/Ricoh's involvement with an upcoming Sony 100mp chip and though at the time, it was for the successor to the 645Z or at the very least the platform for an upcoming mirrorless medium format camera.

I'm hedging my bets on Pentax will develop a mirrorless MF camera along with an AF adaptor that will easily accommodate both their more recently designed and legacy 645 lenses and thus little has been heard or done with the current Pentax 645 system nor its lens road map.

There are still those that appreciate and prefer and optical viewfinder and are willing to trade off size to having one. In better economic times, I could imagine Pentax having both a 100mp successor to the 645Z, basically keeping the lineage of the 645D and 645Z bodies as well as a 100mp mirrorless system with its own downsized smaller lenses as well as the ability to use current Pentax 645 lenses. Unfortunately the feasibility of supporting both is unlikely.

Dave (D&A)
 
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hcubell

Well-known member
The elephant in the room is P1. I am sure outwardly sales at P1 have never been better as always, but with 100MP comes out next year, with a 8K to 9K price point, things may get different.

Paul Caldwell
I doubt that the next generation of the GFX and the X1D with the 100mp sensor will come in at $8-9k. I think the premium over the 50mp version will be $3-4K. I would also be very surprised if P1 doesn't jump into the game by Photokina 2018. The Phase dealers can't be happy watching all of the sales action at Fuji and Hasselblad with new entrants into medium format and a good part of Phase's existing customer base picking up a more portable alternative as a second system. Phase's dilemma is that it spent a large amount of money on r&d and tooling on the XF fairly recently. The existing owner may not be thrilled about funding a whole new system of body and lenses, particularly where Phase has no experience in the mirrorless camera space.
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Hopefully P1 will figure out that the current lenses which are all excellent can easily be adapted to a smaller camera platform. The optics should be excellent since they are all designed around a larger physical sensor 30% larger.

The future would allow P1 to make a new line up of smaller lighter glass but it would be tragic not to create a simple adapter (like Fuji did for older Hasselblad lenses). I realize the current lenses are heavy, and might be overkill weight wise, and for tripod work, may put a strain on the mount, so it will be interesting to see what the future brings.

The 150MP sensors have no interest for me, as the current 100MP files in 16 bit are already too cumbersome for my standard work flow and .psb is not a good alternative at least for now. C1 starts to choke with a lot of adjustment layers now on the 100MP files, on both my MacPro and PC's.

P1 has three alternatives as I see it.

1. Create a totally new MF platform with Mamiya as the base. That will be IMO the hardest as Mamiya has no prior history of this tech, so a 1st round camera could be limited
2. Partner with Fuji or Sony and have them create the body. Both have a ton of knowledge on EVF/Mirrorless tech
3. Do nothing and let the world pass them by, always possible I guess.

Paul Caldwell
 

tsjanik

Well-known member
>>>"

I'm hedging my bets on Pentax will develop a mirrorless MF camera along with an AF adaptor that will easily accommodate their both their more recently designed and legacy 645 lenses and thus little has been heard or done with the current Pentax 645 system nor its lens road map.
I suspect you're right, since mirrorless is quite popular.

There are still those that appreciate and prefer and optical viewfinder and are willing to trade off size to having one. In better economic times, I could imagine Pentax having both a 100mp successor to the 645Z, basically keeping the lineage of the 645D and 645Z bodies as well as a 100mp mirrorless system with its own downsized smaller lenses as well as the ability to use current Pentax 645 lenses. Unfortunately the feasibility of supporting both is unlikely.

Dave (D&A)
I much prefer an OVF and don't mind the size of the 645Z, it's the size and weight of lenses that concerns me and I must say that I'm disappointed that Pentax appears to no longer value compactness in their lenses, e.g, 28-45mm!

Tom
 

D&A

Well-known member
I suspect you're right, since mirrorless is quite popular.

I much prefer an OVF and don't mind the size of the 645Z, it's the size and weight of lenses that concerns me and I must say that I'm disappointed that Pentax appears to no longer value compactness in their lenses, e.g, 28-45mm!

Tom
+1! I too at this juncture prefer an OVF and am willing to sacrifice in having a bulkier body in maintaining an OVF. With that said, there are a few cameras that have a EVF that I could live with...namely the Leica SL for example.

Dave (D&A)
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
I normally don't get involved in these discussions but this is hitting very close to home. I'm real concerned about the pixel dimensions of the upcoming backs as diffraction will certainly start to become a serious factor. I shoot at f11 almost all of the time which is going to be more negatively influenced by the smaller pixel dimensions than my current back. I'm also very much satisfied with 100MP which has all of the detail that I need for my prints. To take $25,000.00 out of my pocket to upgrade to a back that throws away pixels due to diffraction makes no sense to me. So I may just sit this out...... A possible solution would be to finally get into the GFX camp as I would still be able to have my movements (with the Cambo GFX adaptor) and also have a smaller/more portable camera for the times needed. Will see how the dust settles......

Victor
 

DB5

Member
What I see most at the moment is the flood of interest in both the GFX and X1D.

It's only going to significantly increase as the lens lines fleshes out, the X1D is already sounding exciting to me. Even more so when the bodies improve af etc.

What I really feel is Phase One have to pull a rabbit out of the hat because in practical terms, there isn't a huge difference between the GFX and XF100. What gap is left is going to be significantly reduced when the GFX-100s and X1D-100c arrives and the smaller bodies are going to be far more desirable especially when AF and the like improves.

Personally speaking, I have my eyes and heart set on the future of the Hasselblad and to me Phase One is rapidly diminishing in relevance unless they can come up wth something that competes.

IMO.
 

algrove

Well-known member
I had the Pentaz 645Z and when I look at those images I still like the rendering immensely.

For now I am more than pleased with my 100 DB's and prefer to use an Alpa due to weight concerns. It's just that when heavy rain comes on the scene I want a small camera that can withstand bad weather like my 645Z's could do even in sideways driving rain storms. I drag out my Rx1R2 the necessary. Other than that camera for now my only alternative other than the GFX or X1D system would be the A7Riii and weather resistant lenses, even if it is 35mm format. At least with the Sony I can still easily use C1 with its RAWS.

Perhaps I should just sit on the sidelines to see what 2018 brings.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

A 3k$US premium on the GFX would put the 100MP version at 9.5k. But, I would guess that what we will see is the 100MP version replacing the 50MP version.

So I would expect som hike in price point on the 100 MP but more like the 50MP version selling out at a lower price and 100 MP prices dropping to 50MP levels.

After all, camera makers want to earn money and it would be normal to select a price point that maximizes returns on investment.

Best regards
Erik


I doubt that the next generation of the GFX and the X1D with the 100mp sensor will come in at $8-9k. I think the premium over the 50mp version will be $3-4K. I would also be very surprised if P1 doesn't jump into the game by Photokina 2018. The Phase dealers can't be happy watching all of the sales action at Fuji and Hasselblad with new entrants into medium format and a good part of Phase's existing customer base picking up a more portable alternative as a second system. Phase's dilemma is that it spent a large amount of money on r&d and tooling on the XF fairly recently. The existing owner may not be thrilled about funding a whole new system of body and lenses, particularly where Phase has no experience in the mirrorless camera space.
 
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