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Phase One - X1D - GFX

DB5

Member
I can't help but feel the GFX and X1D now set the standard for medium format.

That leaves Phase One in a precarious position.

Do you think we will soon see an X1D sort of model from Phase One any time soon?
 

ejpeiker

Member
It kind of depends on what the definition of "the standard" is. If it's weight and portability while maintaining excellent image quality then those two absolutely set a new standard. If it's all out resolution and the best image quality money can buy then Phase and Hasselblad (H-series) still win hands down.
 

darr

Well-known member
They set a new standard for medium format mirrorless for sure. But for someone like myself that wants to use particular lenses and accessories, the smorgasbord ability still belongs to digital backs, tech camera bodies, and the like. I laugh when I think the ALPA TC may be considered a tech cam when all it really is, is a bracket, but oh what a photographer can do with that bracket! I recently posted these pics on a blog to show medium format does not have to be heavy, and how versatile my little TC is. I am able to shoot my favorite Schneider lenses with film and digital, plus my favorite format is the square. So for me, the TC did set a new standard that the mirrorless ones cannot do (yet), plus is lightweight.



My typical landscape setup with the SK 35xl, Hasselblad CFV50c and sample image.




Weight comparisons between my studio product APS-C setup and my MF square format film setup with preferred lenses.​

Kind regards,
Darr
 

John Black

Active member
If Phase One manages an EVF for the XF, it won't be compatible with the current digital backs. I have the Trichromatic and its live view frame rate is 30 FPS. If in good daylight the view is fine. But at the light drops, the frame rate drops. I think it drops all the way to 2 FPS. For the studio I need to get new monolights that have the 300 watt modeling bulbs, because the 100 watts aren't feeding LV enough light for a good FPS. So, imaging an EVF with frame rate would be a pretty bad (aka - useless) user experience.

I'm not bad-mouthing Phase One per-se, just saying that I do not foresee the current crop of Phase One CMOS backs playing nice with an EVF. So if something EVF based comes along (from Phase One), it might be something more like the X1D (the all-in-one design), or we're going to find out that we need to a big-time upgrade to a next generation Phase One back.

After using the XF for awhile - the features and ergonomic thought that went into it, I think Phase could do excellent X1D competitor if they wanted to. If they go that route, I really-really-really want to see is use the 4.41 MP EVF that Leica uses in the SL. By far, that's best EVF I've used.

Another thing I would want to see is the Trichromatic filter / imaging pipeline. I'm not entirely thrilled with the Trichromatic's live view, but in terms of the color coming off the sensor, very happy with that part.
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
A new Phase One closed all-in-one system (like a Mamiya 7II) as a complement to the XF /Technical camera MFDB system would be great. Being able to use the same Capture One Pro workflow would be a huge plus for me. I'd drop my Fuji GFX without blinking.

It would be great to see what Phase One could come up with in the same GFX/X1D realm. I don't think the XF will fit on Darr's scales...:D

Ken
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

If you mean the 100 MP backs, absolutely, but I would guess that with 50 MP it may be the other way around.

Best regards
Erik


It kind of depends on what the definition of "the standard" is. If it's weight and portability while maintaining excellent image quality then those two absolutely set a new standard. If it's all out resolution and the best image quality money can buy then Phase and Hasselblad (H-series) still win hands down.
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
If Phase One manages an EVF for the XF, it won't be compatible with the current digital backs. I have the Trichromatic and its live view frame rate is 30 FPS. If in good daylight the view is fine. But at the light drops, the frame rate drops. I think it drops all the way to 2 FPS. For the studio I need to get new monolights that have the 300 watt modeling bulbs, because the 100 watts aren't feeding LV enough light for a good FPS. So, imaging an EVF with frame rate would be a pretty bad (aka - useless) user experience.

I'm not bad-mouthing Phase One per-se, just saying that I do not foresee the current crop of Phase One CMOS backs playing nice with an EVF. So if something EVF based comes along (from Phase One), it might be something more like the X1D (the all-in-one design), or we're going to find out that we need to a big-time upgrade to a next generation Phase One back.

After using the XF for awhile - the features and ergonomic thought that went into it, I think Phase could do excellent X1D competitor if they wanted to. If they go that route, I really-really-really want to see is use the 4.41 MP EVF that Leica uses in the SL. By far, that's best EVF I've used.

Another thing I would want to see is the Trichromatic filter / imaging pipeline. I'm not entirely thrilled with the Trichromatic's live view, but in terms of the color coming off the sensor, very happy with that part.
Hi John,

You bring up an interesting point, i.e. the 30fps on the Live View for IQ3100 backs. I thought that the 50MP chip used by Fuji/P1/and Hasselblad also had the same 30fps. but they still offer a EVF, at least Fuji and Hasselblad. I had just assumed the Live spec on the 100MP would be about the same, but it's hard really find much data on it at least for me.

The IQ250, which I used for quite a while and the IQ150 both offered amazing low light Live View, so much that even Alpa made a blog post about it years ago. I agree that the Live View on the 100Mp in low light even with a faster (F 3.5) lens is still not the best in very low light, and probably not quite as bright as the IQ250 was. But I still find it for me outdoor work, sunsets, early am easier to use than say the D810 Live View from Nikon as P1 pumps quite a bit of brightness into the screen at least on the LCD of the back.

Back to the OP, based on the fact now it seems no 100MP 44:33 from at least Fuji till 2019, the pressure on P1 is not what I had assumed it to be. If the 100Mp cameras were coming mid 2018, things might be a bit different. As for Fuji it seems 100MP may be announced at Pkina 2018, shipping sometime 1st qtr 2019. I base this on Fujirumors posts on the subject. Author of that site tends to get things pretty accurate. I was surprised by the 2019 timeline as I felt the chip was closer to being ready.

Edit:
IMO P1's issue is not getting an EVF to work, it's figuring out lenses. Hasselblad to their credit brought out an entire new lineup to work with their solution. Fuji had no choice but to make all new lenses. P1 HAS great glass, but it's all massive and heavy. It will easily work with a smaller 44:33 sensor, but if P1 is working towards a more modern body, odds are it will be much lighter in mass than the XF, thus the current lenses (which could easily be made to work on a new mirrorless body with an adapter) would not be overall the best solution due to their weight which would way out balance a mirrorless body like the X1D or GFX.

Paul Caldwell
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Hi John,

You bring up an interesting point, i.e. the 30fps on the Live View for IQ3100 backs. I thought that the 50MP chip used by Fuji/P1/and Hasselblad also had the same 30fps. but they still offer a EVF, at least Fuji and Hasselblad. I had just assumed the Live spec on the 100MP would be about the same, but it's hard really find much data on it at least for me.

The IQ250, which I used for quite a while and the IQ150 both offered amazing low light Live View, so much that even Alpa made a blog post about it years ago. I agree that the Live View on the 100Mp in low light even with a faster (F 3.5) lens is still not the best in very low light, and probably not quite as bright as the IQ250 was. But I still find it for me outdoor work, sunsets, early am easier to use than say the D810 Live View from Nikon as P1 pumps quite a bit of brightness into the screen at least on the LCD of the back.

Back to the OP, based on the fact now it seems no 100MP 44:33 from at least Fuji till 2019, the pressure on P1 is not what I had assumed it to be. If the 100Mp cameras were coming mid 2018, things might be a bit different. As for Fuji it seems 100MP may be announced at Pkina 2018, shipping sometime 1st qtr 2019. I base this on Fujirumors posts on the subject. Author of that site tends to get things pretty accurate. I was surprised by the 2019 timeline as I felt the chip was closer to being ready.

Edit:
IMO P1's issue is not getting an EVF to work, it's figuring out lenses. Hasselblad to their credit brought out an entire new lineup to work with their solution. Fuji had no choice but to make all new lenses. P1 HAS great glass, but it's all massive and heavy. It will easily work with a smaller 44:33 sensor, but if P1 is working towards a more modern body, odds are it will be much lighter in mass than the XF, thus the current lenses (which could easily be made to work on a new mirrorless body with an adapter) would not be overall the best solution due to their weight which would way out balance a mirrorless body like the X1D or GFX.

Paul Caldwell
I’d assume the 2019 date was for availability for mass production with Phase One, Hasselblad, Fuji, and maybe Pentax all using the same sensor in their cameras. Fuji seemed to be pretty prompt and smooth with their GFX rollout.
 

DrakeJ

New member
If Phase One manages an EVF for the XF, it won't be compatible with the current digital backs. I have the Trichromatic and its live view frame rate is 30 FPS. If in good daylight the view is fine. But at the light drops, the frame rate drops. I think it drops all the way to 2 FPS. For the studio I need to get new monolights that have the 300 watt modeling bulbs, because the 100 watts aren't feeding LV enough light for a good FPS. So, imaging an EVF with frame rate would be a pretty bad (aka - useless) user experience.

I'm not bad-mouthing Phase One per-se, just saying that I do not foresee the current crop of Phase One CMOS backs playing nice with an EVF. So if something EVF based comes along (from Phase One), it might be something more like the X1D (the all-in-one design), or we're going to find out that we need to a big-time upgrade to a next generation Phase One back.

After using the XF for awhile - the features and ergonomic thought that went into it, I think Phase could do excellent X1D competitor if they wanted to. If they go that route, I really-really-really want to see is use the 4.41 MP EVF that Leica uses in the SL. By far, that's best EVF I've used.

Another thing I would want to see is the Trichromatic filter / imaging pipeline. I'm not entirely thrilled with the Trichromatic's live view, but in terms of the color coming off the sensor, very happy with that part.

Regarding speed of an EVF and the 100mpix sensor, an EVF is not required to show the entire resolution so I'd assume you can apply some trickery to get lower resolution out of the sensor with much greater speed.
 

bernardl

Active member
It seems very likely that the H7D-150c will have at least an EVF option, probably with a few new H lenses optimized for contrast AF (my bet would be a new 100mm f2 and 150mm f2.8).

P1 will at least have to answer to that.

Cheers,
Bernard
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

I would suggest that the X1D is a quietan effort from Hasselblad. It is affordable, at least in medium format terms. But it is a much larger volume product than traditional MFD. In connection with the X1D, Hasselblad needed:

  • Create new manufacturing space and employ more people.
  • Reorganize manufacturing workflow
  • Get more software engineers
  • Design a new line of lenses
  • Get new financing from DJI
  • Adjust down the price of the 50MP H6D option to a reasonable level

They created, together with Fuji a new kind of camera, built around the 33x44 mm sensor from Sony. That means lenses built and optimized for the 55 mm image circle.

I am not sure that Phase One is willing to go into medium volume/medium margin production, unless they need to. My guess is that they are quiet happy making money with the 100 MP backs.

When the 100 MP versions of the GFX and X1D arrive, competition may heat up a bit, but 150 MP will be available on 54x40 mm at that time, at least based on the medium format CMOS sensor roadmap Sony preented this spring.

Best regards
Erik





I can't help but feel the GFX and X1D now set the standard for medium format.

That leaves Phase One in a precarious position.

Do you think we will soon see an X1D sort of model from Phase One any time soon?
 
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darr

Well-known member
with film, don't forgot the finder :)
I do not use a finder; I use a bubble level. If I am shooting film with the TC, it is in collaboration with the digital back.
If I want to shoot film with a viewfinder type camera, I will use my Mamiya 6, Hasselblad 501CM or Rolleiflex T.
I understand your comment and I do have a Hasselblad ground glass if I need it, but I honestly never use it.

Kind regards,
Darr
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi Darr,

I always regarded a technical camera to be a mirrorless device. Why? Because it has no mirror!

For me, a technical camera having movements was always something to strive for. But, mother told me that if I buy one of those devices with focusing cloth over your head I will never go on a photo trip with you! That got me to Pentax 67.

For me, it is a bit natural. We have the mirror in a SLR for near "What You See is What You Get" display. If we can replace the mirror with electronics, just fine!

The CMOS backs have workable live view, so we no longer need that focusing cloth.

An interesting observation is that I by and large prefer an EVF over a monitor screen. The EVF works best with an eyecup. But, here is an interesting thing, after composing an image trough the EVF and looking at the monitor I often feel I can improve the composition. I guess that the EVF shows the subject in isolation while the monitor shows it in a different way.

The way I work, mostly, is that I use my hands as a framing tool. So, when I get to a place I walk around and look for a good point of view. Once I find a PoV, I start looking for a good composition. Once composition is found I start to consider which lens to use.

At this stage, I have not used any view finder at all and the camera is still in the backpack. I normally carry the camera without a mounted lens. Why?

  • Switching lenses takes much more time than mounting a lens.
  • I don't want the lens I have mounted on the camera to affect my choice of lens.
  • My bags are configured to my habits, no place for a camera with a mounted len.

The reason I think about this is in part a series with Charles Cramer on LuLa. Charlie always carries some viewing frames cut from cardboard. Perhaps I should carry something like that, too.

Like many folks on this planet, I live on a limited budget. Would the Fuji GFX has been around four years ago, I would have bought it. But, it was not around four years ago. So i went into Hasselblad V with a P45+. That turned out reasonably well, even if I have found that it didn't provide any MFD magic. I don't have another 20k$US to spend, but I guess that the GFX or the X1D do deliver, probably no magic but a very good image quality.

A few years ago, I was quite desperate about the lack of live view on my Sony DSLR. At that time Sony didn't have live view on DSLR designs. But, for me, live view was the single most important feature. So, I started to look at the camera like "it is just an imaging device". If I can compose and focus dead on accurate, the rest simple does not matter. I can live with a lot of inconvenience if the capture device delivers what I need.

So, where does that put me?

The Sony A7rII delivers what I need. The next version A7rIII has a lot of nice features that I would really appreciate. But, will it give better images? Not really. I can choose between buying the A7rIII or going on a nice five week vacation in France and Italy. Which do I choose? Going to France and Italy.

Would the GFX be around 4-5 years ago, I would jump on it. But it was not around at that time.

Now, I have the Sony A7rII. It covers the 12 to 400 mm range with lenses I have and I can do tilt and some shift from 16 to 135 mm, using the gear I normally carry. So, the Sony A7rII does the job. No love included, just a working relationship.

The Sony A7rIII offers some nice benefits. But, buying the A7rIII means doing less travel and none of the niceties of the A7RIII will yield better images. So, no A7rIII for me.

Best regards
Erik

They set a new standard for medium format mirrorless for sure. But for someone like myself that wants to use particular lenses and accessories, the smorgasbord ability still belongs to digital backs, tech camera bodies, and the like. I laugh when I think the ALPA TC may be considered a tech cam when all it really is, is a bracket, but oh what a photographer can do with that bracket! I recently posted these pics on a blog to show medium format does not have to be heavy, and how versatile my little TC is. I am able to shoot my favorite Schneider lenses with film and digital, plus my favorite format is the square. So for me, the TC did set a new standard that the mirrorless ones cannot do (yet), plus is lightweight.



My typical landscape setup with the SK 35xl, Hasselblad CFV50c and sample image.




Weight comparisons between my studio product APS-C setup and my MF square format film setup with preferred lenses.​

Kind regards,
Darr
 
Last edited:

darr

Well-known member
Hi Darr,

I always regarded a technical camera to be a mirrorless device. Why? Because it has no mirror! ...

Erik
Erik,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. Without hijacking this thread all I can say is photography is a vocation where we can get too involved with the gear, and then the old saying, "Can't see the forest for the trees," can happen. I derive no pleasure from hauling, storing, or setting up gear, so I strive for simplicity in every step. When I know what works for me, I then try to minimize my needs accordingly. But what works for me, is not necessarily what works for someone else.

Kind regards,
Darr
 
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