Buying second hand or new MF camera's

[Frankly]

I know it strains the comparison and reflects a touch of mental illness but looking back at my early digital photos made with the 6mp D70 and then 12mp D80-D200-D2x I do indeed wish I had either used film or waited for a higher resolution and bit-depth camera. Not that the old photos are horrible but if I had made them with current equipment they'd have been so much better. Or if I had played it straight and simply shot 35mm film I could better accept their limitations.

It's the same sort of thinking that would have you go back and reshoot with 8x10 Portra 160 (not 400!) and get $1000 Castor Scans of each sheet....

(My experience is that carrying multiple lenses is what turns a compact camera into a burden, if you can somehow rectify yourself into believing in one lens then even the largest camera becomes fairly easy to manage, especially handheld. I would love a 100mp P1 with a normal prime for at least a couple of years!)

The funny part is that when I got the D2x, $5000, I was so impressed with it and swore it was the ultimate, blah blah blah.... Now I equate those old files with phone photos, old point and shoots, still shots from my Mavic drone, low end stuff.

I understand that digital photography is plateauing and there isn't much point in more resolution for 99.9999% of applications but I wonder how we'll feel in a few years?

 

[DB5]

I know it strains the comparison and reflects a touch of mental illness but looking back at my early digital photos made with the 6mp D70 and then 12mp D80-D200-D2x I do indeed wish I had either used film or waited for a higher resolution and bit-depth camera. Not that the old photos are horrible but if I had made them with current equipment they'd have been so much better. Or if I had played it straight and simply shot 35mm film I could better accept their limitations.

It's the same sort of thinking that would have you go back and reshoot with 8x10 Portra 160 (not 400!) and get $1000 Castor Scans of each sheet....

(My experience is that carrying multiple lenses is what turns a compact camera into a burden, if you can somehow rectify yourself into believing in one lens then even the largest camera becomes fairly easy to manage, especially handheld. I would love a 100mp P1 with a normal prime for at least a couple of years!)

I know that feeling very well and I share the sentiment. I have a slideshow of my photos over the last couple of decades as my desktop background and I feel really disappointed when the older photos flash up for the same reason. Low resolution, low dynamic range, weak colour...It's worse knowing I can never have those moments back and I could have shot it on film. My new years resolution is to up my standards at all time with this.

 

[ndwgolf]

Sorry if you already know it but are you aware you can also go the hybrid route - Hasselblad Body and Phase One back.

I didn't know that until my mate told me today. He also said that it would be the best route for me as I have a bunch of Hasselblad V lenses as well.

Neil

 

[dougpeterson]

I didn't know that until my mate told me today. He also said that it would be the best route for me as I have a bunch of Hasselblad V lenses as well.

Neil

Hasselblad V (aka 500 series aka CF and similar) lenses can be used on either Hasselblad H or Phase One XF bodies. In both cases an adapter is required. The Hasselblad H adapter is around $1600. The XF adapter is around $700.

The Hasselblad H adapter triggers the leaf shutter and you have to manually/mechanically cock the lens shutter between exposures. In the case of the XF the system uses the XF focal plane shutter and does not require manual recocking.

In both cases, obviously, it's manual focus only. In the case of the XF you'll gain focus confirmation using the AF CMOS sensor, or can both focus and shoot from within live view using the electronic shutter of the IQ3 100mp and any shutter speed from 1/4000th to 1 hour is available.

So, all in all, I'd actually say if you have a lot of Hasselblad 500 lenses that this favors the XF.

 

[ndwgolf]

Hasselblad V (aka 500 series aka CF and similar) lenses can be used on either Hasselblad H or Phase One XF bodies. In both cases an adapter is required. The Hasselblad H adapter is around $1600. The XF adapter is around $700.

The Hasselblad H adapter triggers the leaf shutter and you have to manually/mechanically cock the lens shutter between exposures. In the case of the XF the system uses the XF focal plane shutter and does not require manual recocking.

In both cases, obviously, it's manual focus only. In the case of the XF you'll gain focus confirmation using the AF CMOS sensor, or can both focus and shoot from within live view using the electronic shutter of the IQ3 100mp and any shutter speed from 1/4000th to 1 hour is available.

So, all in all, I'd actually say if you have a lot of Hasselblad 500 lenses that this favors the XF.

Thats something else new that I have learned today
Thanks Doug

 

[med]

Hasselblad V (aka 500 series aka CF and similar) lenses can be used on either Hasselblad H or Phase One XF bodies. In both cases an adapter is required. The Hasselblad H adapter is around $1600. The XF adapter is around $700.

The Hasselblad H adapter triggers the leaf shutter and you have to manually/mechanically cock the lens shutter between exposures. In the case of the XF the system uses the XF focal plane shutter and does not require manual recocking.

In both cases, obviously, it's manual focus only. In the case of the XF you'll gain focus confirmation using the AF CMOS sensor, or can both focus and shoot from within live view using the electronic shutter of the IQ3 100mp and any shutter speed from 1/4000th to 1 hour is available.

So, all in all, I'd actually say if you have a lot of Hasselblad 500 lenses that this favors the XF.

Both Hasselblad V adaptors can be had for much less on the used market. I picked up my CF adaptor for H for about $800 or so (CAD) which was from my dealer so I'm sure it could be found for less.

In addition to what Doug mentioned, I think the Hasselblad H system is much more friendly to V lenses, even with the manual re-cocking and lack of focal plane shutter for the following reasons:

1. Auto-aperture stop down works as it does on the Hasselblad V system, i.e. it remains wide open for focusing and stops down automatically during exposure. with a Phase One body you have to manually stop down for each exposure and open the lens afterwards for focusing if necessary. Not the end of the world with the DOF preview switch on V lenses but personally I find manual re-cocking of lens after exposure less intrusive to my workflow than having an additional step between focusing and exposure. Moot point for shooting wide open of course.

2. Higher flash sync speed. Although not as good as native H lenses or Phase LS lenses, you can sync V lenses via the CF adaptor at 1/500 of a second. On a Phase body you would be limited to the 1/125 sync speed of the focal plane shutter.

3. Not an advantage per se but Doug implied that you only get focus confirmation and live view/e-shutter on the XF which is not the case. Focus confirmation works on the H bodies with V lenses and if you go the route of a Hasselblad body with Phase back (IQ3-100 only) then you can still take advantage of the live view and e-shutter, but you would likely not be able to trigger it via the camera body shutter release (would need to tap the screen, use Capture Pilot, or connect a cable release directly to the back.

Prior to the introduction of the XF and new blue ring lenses I personally thought that Hasselblad had the edge with their body and lens lineup, but the XF with an IQ3 back is a gamechanger as they operate as a single unit and have a lot of amazing features, and keep getting better with every feature update for the XF. If you will be using mostly/all V lenses then I would certainly consider an H body though along with a Phase back though. Hasselblad backs are fine but a PITA if you want to use with a tech camera; unless something has changed then you require an external power supply for them.

My $0.02!

 

[DB5]

I think the Hasselblad is the much better option for V lenses. I don't want to focus through a stopped down lens.

Simple and quick cocking of the the shutter is much better than the fiddly task of having to open up and then stop down the lens all the time. You don't even have to take your eye off the finder with the Hasselblad CF adapter cocking.

And you DO get focus confirmation with the H and CF adapter.

 

[dougpeterson]

I did not mean to imply that focus confirmation was not possible on the H. But looking at my writing I definitely see how it could be read that way. Sorry for any confusion and thanks for chiming in to make sure the details are clear!

Flash sync speed (1/500 vs 1/125) with the CF lenses and auto stopdown of aperture are both definite advantages of the H:CF workflow. I’d argue that those are more important to handheld portrait/fashion work (where I would suggest an H or XF native lens would be strongly preferable) than for landscape work (much of my landscape work is done on a tech camera where lenses do not auto stopdown anyway). But there is room for reasonable disagreement here on how that balance comes down. In both cases use is possible and in many situations reasonable, but never as easy as with a native lens.

Regardless I’m very glad for your clarification!

 

[dougpeterson]

While on the topic of lens compatibility it is worth noting that the XF can use its focal plane shutter with Mamiya AF and Mamiya MF lenses as well as various oddball lenses found (or made into) those mounts. My favorite is the 130/2 IMAX projector lens with Petzval-like swirl and razor thin DOF (https://digitaltransitions.com/fast-portrait-lens-phase-one/). In the case of the older MF lenses a small physical modification is required; a quick operation for any machine shop and reasonable to DIY for most handy folk. Such older lenses vary in quality; the 120 macro MF is nearly as good optically as today’s 120 LS BR while the older 35mm can’t hold a candle to today’s 35LS BR and include some oddballs such as a soft Focus portrait lens and 24mm fisheye and 500mm super long lens. They can be an inexpensive way to expand out the lens line you have.

I’m off the forums for a few days now as I enjoy my first New Years holiday as a married man.

 

[ndwgolf]

I’m off the forums for a few days now as I enjoy my first New Years holiday as a married man.

Happy holidays and we can chat when you get back to work

Neil

 

[narikin]

'In my humble opinion, it would make a lot of sense to buy a Fuji GFX or a Hasselblad X1D. Those systems are built for the 44x33 mm Sony CMOS sensor and they are affordable by MFD standards. If you need 100 MP your options are Hasselblad and Phase One.'
john

Clearly 100Mp is coming soon in GFX-2. So the system may be good to buy into for the lenses, but the body is about to undergo a major Mp boost - doubling the resolution. If the price stays the same, this an excellent investment, and will be a hot item for some time.
Likewise for a Hasselblad X1D-2.

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Good point. But, latest rumors place the 100MP 44x33 GFX well into 2019. So, if you need 100 MP you need to go Phase or Hassy. Of course, it is often possible to stitch. For landscape shooters it is often practical.

The image below was stitched on the P45+, not because of the megapixels but because I needed a wider lens:

It is possible to use shift-stitch with medium format lenses using a shift adapter like my HCamMaster TSII.

This one was made with the distagon 60/3.5. Full size is here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/H_CF_Lenses_on_A7rII/20160106-_DSC3986.jpg

And this one was made with the Planar 100/3.5CF, full size: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/H_CF_Lenses_on_A7rII/20160106-_DSC4002-Pano.jpg

HCam.de makes a shift adapter for the Fuji GFX. They say that a TS adapter is not possible.

Kipon makes T&S adapters for different MF lenses.

Best regards
Erik

Clearly 100Mp is coming soon in GFX-2. So the system may be good to buy into for the lenses, but the body is about to undergo a major Mp boost - doubling the resolution. If the price stays the same, this an excellent investment, and will be a hot item for some time.
Likewise for a Hasselblad X1D-2.

 

[RobbieAB]

I will continue scratching my head and try and figure out what is the best thing to do but after seeing 100mp images "I want and need 100mp images"

One option not mentioned if 100MPixel is the main goal would be mounting an IQ1-100 onto a used DF body. It's not going to give you all the bells and whistles of the IQ3 100 paired with an XF, but it should handle the back as well as both the LS and the older non-LS mamiya lenses, and it should be cheaper.

 

[kdphotography]

I'm in the "go big or go home camp"---or in other words, "if you're gonna do it, might as well do it right."

Hitting focus with MFDBs is more challenging than with a DSLR. And as you follow the path with Dante and acquire higher megapixel options, focus becomes even more critical. The difference between the cost of the DF body and the XF body is negligible when talking about hitting focus with the IQ 100MP series of MFDBs. It is not an incremental improvement between the DF/DF+ and XF bodies, but a huge generational improvement from the bottom up, with AF performance at the top of the "nice job Phase One" list. My advice is if your MFDB is XF compatible, get the XF body, technical cameras notwithstanding though most tech cam users probably have the XF anyway. The feature set of the XF simply makes using everything better.

If you're going to skimp at the 100MP MFDB level, it should be a comparison between the IQ1 100 series and IQ3 100 standard and Trichromatic. But you know, if you're gonna do it....:ROTFL:

ken

 

[dougpeterson]

One option not mentioned if 100MPixel is the main goal would be mounting an IQ1-100 onto a used DF body. It's not going to give you all the bells and whistles of the IQ3 100 paired with an XF, but it should handle the back as well as both the LS and the older non-LS mamiya lenses, and it should be cheaper.

In my opinion this would be a disadvantageous way to reduce the cost of entry.

 

[Geoff]

Some very good advice here, from some serious players. Consider two paths then:

- those with needs for the biggest file sizes, because they print very large and want the highest quality
- those who still want fine quality but can live with a lesser file size, possibly because they are printing smaller.

Being in the second camp, I'm quite happy with a Credo 60. The earlier Leaf Aptus II was wonderful before this, with good clean files, but the Credo is a jump up, especially its shadow recovery at base ISO. It handles shifting well, and apart from its medieval Live View (useful only if you stop down), its pretty delightful. A higher mp back would allow use of fewer lenses (more cropping avail), but tending to shoot only with either a 60 and one long lens, I am happy enough. Also higher mp has some difficulty with extreme shifting, so its nice not to be on the bleeding edge.

There are also those who follow new products for their own reasons. In MFDB, unlike some other parts of the photo world, there is plenty of fine quality to be found a generation or two back. Of course, a CMOS back with good live view and higher ISO (for handholding perhaps) is tempting...

 

[ndwgolf]

So I'm down to the last two......maybe three

My Heart wants to go with the H6D 100c, but my head is saying Phase one CMOS 80 or 100mp.........and I really don't know why I am thinking like that!!!!
My current MF camera is a Leica S007 and I love that camera........but its only got 37mp. I have seen the quality of the images that come out of the H6D and they just blow the Leica away. At the end of the day I am just a regular guy that takes pictures for fun (Landscape and pretty girls).

I will get one of the above cameras in the next few days

Am I missing anything in my thinking??

Neil

 

[dougpeterson]

So I'm down to the last two......maybe three

My Heart wants to go with the H6D 100c, but my head is saying Phase one CMOS 80 or 100mp.........and I really don't know why I am thinking like that!!!!

The 80mp Phase One models are CCD not CMOS.

The two CMOS options (for Hassy or P1 or Pentax or Fuji) are 50mp (1.3 crop sensor) and 100mp (full frame sensor).

It's very hard not to love the Phase One 100mp if you're after ultimate image quality. In my (biased) opinion there is simply nothing better.

 

[med]

I did not mean to imply that focus confirmation was not possible on the H. But looking at my writing I definitely see how it could be read that way. Sorry for any confusion and thanks for chiming in to make sure the details are clear!

Flash sync speed (1/500 vs 1/125) with the CF lenses and auto stopdown of aperture are both definite advantages of the H:CF workflow. I’d argue that those are more important to handheld portrait/fashion work (where I would suggest an H or XF native lens would be strongly preferable) than for landscape work (much of my landscape work is done on a tech camera where lenses do not auto stopdown anyway). But there is room for reasonable disagreement here on how that balance comes down. In both cases use is possible and in many situations reasonable, but never as easy as with a native lens.

Regardless I’m very glad for your clarification!

While on the topic of lens compatibility it is worth noting that the XF can use its focal plane shutter with Mamiya AF and Mamiya MF lenses as well as various oddball lenses found (or made into) those mounts. My favorite is the 130/2 IMAX projector lens with Petzval-like swirl and razor thin DOF (https://digitaltransitions.com/fast-portrait-lens-phase-one/). In the case of the older MF lenses a small physical modification is required; a quick operation for any machine shop and reasonable to DIY for most handy folk. Such older lenses vary in quality; the 120 macro MF is nearly as good optically as today’s 120 LS BR while the older 35mm can’t hold a candle to today’s 35LS BR and include some oddballs such as a soft Focus portrait lens and 24mm fisheye and 500mm super long lens. They can be an inexpensive way to expand out the lens line you have.

I’m off the forums for a few days now as I enjoy my first New Years holiday as a married man.

Hope you had a good New Years Doug! Indeed, the flash sync and workflow with CF lenses I was discussing was in a fashion/portrait setting as this is my main use for my H body now that I have a tech cam. And yes, native lenses (with AF) are strongly preferable for this usage and now that I have a digital back and a body, my next purchase will certainly be in one or more native lenses! If shooting landscapes on a tripod then there is not much hassle involved in stopping down and in fact it is probably easier than cocking the CF adaptor while on a tripod. Either way it is ≤50% of the steps required when using a tech cam with copal shutter!

The 130 IMAX lens you mentioned is intriguing... was it ever available in a Mamiya mount, or was that a custom hack job? (I don't want to veer too far off topic so feel free to PM me).

 

[dougpeterson]

The 130 IMAX lens you mentioned is intriguing... was it ever available in a Mamiya mount, or was that a custom hack job? (I don't want to veer too far off topic so feel free to PM me).

Custom hack. If you're ever in NYC you're welcome to borrow it; no charge, though I always welcome someone buying me a beer . :chug: