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Buying second hand or new MF camera's

ndwgolf

Active member
So I am in the market for a digital back camera for shooting landscape and pretty girls. The problem I am having with this is that the cost of a new digital back is as I am sure you are all well aware is pretty expensive. I have seen a few second hand ones that look okay but am I buying into someone else's problems............someone selling a dodgy camera isn't going to tell you that it has a problem with this or that, thats when the second hand car dealer comes out of you and you lay it on thick and fast.........."best camera Ive ever had" "works like a dream" that kind of punch line.

Okay if the second hand camera costs 3 to 5k then it might be worth the risk, but when it cost 20 to 30k and you live on the other side of the world then you are relying on whoever is selling to be open and honest with you.........a hard call when you have never met them, as there are many many honest and genuine people out there as well.

I know from my own experience that buying second hand Leica's (Ive never bought a second hand Leica) but Ive sold a few that were still under warranty, and as long as I have unregistered the product from me then the new owner can register it and continue with the comfort of having the warranty.......unfortunately it docent seem that way with all manufacturers !!!

I will continue scratching my head and try and figure out what is the best thing to do but after seeing 100mp images "I want and need 100mp images"

Neil
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Neil,

FWIW, I've bought (almost) all my MF equipment used - Leica S and 5 or 6 lenses, Phase back, and one of my two tech camera lenses. Not a single problem with any item. Ditto all my Leica M lenses.

Only one APS-C lens I bought used was less than perfect.

Buying from KEH is a bit chancier, as when an item is returned, it stays in the pool, but I accept that some purchases will go back.

A digital back is the least failure prone part of the entire workflow. It has no moving parts, except possibly a card door. I would not hesitate on that point. It's also the part that loses value the fastest. When the Sony A7VI comes out at 120MP in 3 years, the back will be worth <$5,000. I lost more money on that used IQ140 than on all my other photography purchases combined.

Best,

Matt
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

My experience with a used P45+. Bought it 2013 and still works perfectly. Clock battery seems to be a bit weak.

What I heard is that repairs can be very expensive. It may be an advantage if you can send the back without going over a dealer.

My only issue is that the sync cables and connectors are unreliable. I have a P45+ used with the Hasselblad 555/ELD and that needs a sync cable between back and lens.

In my humble opinion, it would make a lot of sense to buy a Fuji GFX or a Hasselblad X1D. Those systems are built for the 44x33 mm Sony CMOS sensor and they are affordable by MFD standards. If you need 100 MP your options are Hasselblad and Phase One.

Do high MP CCD backs still make a sense? I don't know.

Best regards
Erik
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
My biased perspective working at Phase One dealers for 10 years...

People often mistake "lowest price" as a synonym for "good deal". There are several components of a "good deal" and price is only one of them. I'd argue it's not even the most important. The most important, in my mind, is that the equipment you buy is the right fit for your needs and wants.

If you start by looking for a low price, and then asking if it's the right system for you, you're less likely to end up with the system that best fits you. A great price on a "bad fit" system is a bad deal.

I suggest that you first examine what's right for you. Start with armchair research. Then as the list of candidates narrows, get hands on with the systems at the top of your list, do a shoot with them, ask for raw files from relevant [back+body+lens+subject+lighting] combinations that aren't practical for you test yourself (e.g. spring foliage is hard to test yourself during the winter).

Also, give your local dealer a chance to earn your business. We (DT in the US) have used, demo, and refurbished systems that make up a good chunk of our business, in addition to new. Such systems, sold through a dealer, come with training, support, a warranty, brand-new accessories, are fully inspected by us (and as the largest P1 dealer in the world with 15 years experience we know what to look for), and are backed by a business/physical-address/face/reputation that you can come after if you're unhappy. And the price is often very competitive (or even better than in some cases) the faceless eBay sale. If you do decide to buy elsewhere than a dealer I would suggest a forum such as this one where you can see the history and reputation of the user you are buying from.

Regarding condition: it's absolutely true that a P1 back, lacking any moving parts, is the least likely part of a system to fail due to age. P1 backs are very solidly made. But component failures, subtle manufacturing defects, filter scratches, sensor artifacts, and other "quirks" can and do happen. Even assuming the seller is honest and well meaning they may not use the back in the same way that you will and may not notice issues you will; as one microcosm example, they may not use the multiport because they only use the back on an SLR body, but you may intend to use it on a tech or view camera where that port's operation is critical.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
What I heard is that repairs can be very expensive. It may be an advantage if you can send the back without going over a dealer.
Phase One repairs are always facilitated via the partner (aka dealer) network* and is based on a fixed price list. End-user support for Phase One products comes from their partners (aka dealers). Any repair that requires opening the system in a clean room (which is most of them) are, indeed, expensive if outside of warranty.

*I'll put the usual caveat that my experience, though extensive, is limited to the US. But my understanding is that this is the procedure across the world.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi Doug,

It may be that the major US based dealers are very good, but it may not be the general case. Here in Sweden, we have either Scandinavian Photo as dealers and that is like B&H Photo and Video or Goecker.

Anders Torger had a very bad time fixing an Aptus back, and that issue was mostly caused by dealers. If you can send a back to a repair facility yourself, I am pretty sure it is an advantage. If you have the option to go over a dealer it can be a very good option.

Here is a guide to buying second hand MFD from Anders Torger, some interesting read: https://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/photography/mfdb-guide.html

Best regards
Erik


Phase One repairs are always facilitated via the partner (aka dealer) network* and is based on a fixed price list. End-user support for Phase One products comes from their partners (aka dealers). Any repair that requires opening the system in a clean room (which is most of them) are, indeed, expensive if outside of warranty.

*I'll put the usual caveat that my experience, though extensive, is limited to the US. But my understanding is that this is the procedure across the world.
 
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bab

Active member
FWIW
New Cameras have little resale value unless they are current models and your using it as a trade to the manufactures upgrade program at the right time. Used cameras have a better value to work with because they are already half price when purchased...ex new $1.00 used $.50, when you sell $.25 you only lose $.25 instead of $.50.
If you use the camera think of the money spent as a rental fee if you can absorb that fee by 2x you’ve in a sense made money or at worst broke even.
Truth if you shoot proffesional and all your money is gained by time shooting you will need two cameras if one craps out you out of work.

Phase pricing is set up for leasing so for a new camera you pay double, that gives way to dealers margins and trade or upgrade programs. Leica is just expensive. All other cameras are priced pointed for what the consumers will pay.

Lenses if available when you need them used is a much better value if the lenses you find don’t have tens of thousands of clicks.

Repairs I’ve only had two repair bills over $500 so very affordable and/lucky I would look for a camera with little use or a certified offer from a manufacture. A camera from on of the big retailers that has had heavy usage and comes with a warranty would also be a consideration, but not my choice

The whole concept of used is building a system by collecting the pieces over time, buying new is push the button and bam! Your in business.

On this site you can find lots of good stuff for sale at fair prices, you can also ASK to buy what your looking for and most of the users on this site seem to be descent folks. Right now there are a couples of systems on the site for sale at a good price just make a reasonable offer and your in business.

A new camera can break go to the factory for a extended period of time before its repaired just as a used camera can it’s by chance!

Now the real truth “Buy cheap...Buy TWICE!
 

John_McMaster

Active member
'In my humble opinion, it would make a lot of sense to buy a Fuji GFX or a Hasselblad X1D. Those systems are built for the 44x33 mm Sony CMOS sensor and they are affordable by MFD standards. If you need 100 MP your options are Hasselblad and Phase One.'


Neil has a Leica S(007) kit and is lining up (last I heard) a three lens X1D kit as well, why he now thinks he needs a digital back as well......

john
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Phase pricing is set up for leasing so for a new camera you pay double
What an odd statement. I've worked at P1 dealers for 10 years and during that time I'd say around 20-30% of clients purchase via a lease. In other words 70-80% of our clients are not leasing, which would seem to directly contradict your statement.

Moreover, maybe half of those leasing are doing so primarily because of the tax advantages; in some cases you can (in the US) write off the full cost of the product on your taxes the first year even though you've only made, for example, one lease payment on a 24 month lease. Lease calculator and info. As an example if you made 20k in profit this year and start a lease on a 20k camera in the next day or two, you can offset your profits and pay 0 in taxes in April rather than pay taxes on 20k in profit, even though your out of pocket cash expense to start the lease was a few hundred bucks.

P.S. For clarity, because it's a bit different than, say, the car industry... a "lease" in the world of P1 means you pay in payments over 1-5 years (most common is 2 or 3 years) and own the system at the end. It's really more "financing" than "leasing".


Disclaimer: We are not tax experts. Consult your tax professional for any tax-related decisions.
 

ndwgolf

Active member
'In my humble opinion, it would make a lot of sense to buy a Fuji GFX or a Hasselblad X1D. Those systems are built for the 44x33 mm Sony CMOS sensor and they are affordable by MFD standards. If you need 100 MP your options are Hasselblad and Phase One.'


Neil has a Leica S(007) kit and is lining up (last I heard) a three lens X1D kit as well, why he now thinks he needs a digital back as well......

john
Hi John
Ive given the X1D a body swerve as I am still not sure about the EVF (blackouts). I am current in negations with a gentleman on here and hopefully he will accept my offer......if not I will continue looking.

My Leica S007 is a keeper, I love that camera and system and have gotten very good results out of it, the X1D files also look very very nice but not 100c nice.

You know me from over at the Leica Forum, so I don't need to explain to you what I am like, I will buy a digital back with 80+ megabytes and will enjoy using it where it be for one week, one month, or for the rest of my life :) :)

Neil
 

sog1927

Member
'In my humble opinion, it would make a lot of sense to buy a Fuji GFX or a Hasselblad X1D. Those systems are built for the 44x33 mm Sony CMOS sensor and they are affordable by MFD standards. If you need 100 MP your options are Hasselblad and Phase One.'


Neil has a Leica S(007) kit and is lining up (last I heard) a three lens X1D kit as well, why he now thinks he needs a digital back as well......

john
IIRC (from the Leica forum), he also has a V-series Hasselblad and a couple of view cameras (he sounds like me ;) ). Perhaps he's looking for a digital solution for the big Blad.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi John,

Thanks for explaining...

I would think we are going to see an 100 MP version of the X1D in due time, but it may be that due time is a bit away.

Anyway, if you are happy with either the X1D or the GFX, they make a lot of sense. If you optimize a lens for a smaller format it will be sharper and cheaper. The Fuji GFX lenses are quite complex designs and most of them are very sharp, it seems, at least from the writings of Jim Kasson. Jim has done an incredible lot of testing on the GFX.

I have not seen anything like Jim's testing on the X1D or other medium format.

Best regards
Erik

'In my humble opinion, it would make a lot of sense to buy a Fuji GFX or a Hasselblad X1D. Those systems are built for the 44x33 mm Sony CMOS sensor and they are affordable by MFD standards. If you need 100 MP your options are Hasselblad and Phase One.'


Neil has a Leica S(007) kit and is lining up (last I heard) a three lens X1D kit as well, why he now thinks he needs a digital back as well......

john
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
100 MP is coming at a very low cost ... save your chits and take a round the world trip ... 18 months from now you will be able to buy it for a very reasonable price.
And 18 months from then, you'll get something much better at a reasonable price. And 18 months from THEN, ....

It never stops. Get what you want if you can afford it.

My 2p,

Matt (who will spend way too much on the next Leica S because I like using the 006, I like the output, I like the lenses, and I don't care for ANY mirrorless except the Leica Q and Mamiya 7.)
 

DB5

Member
Always a difficult decision but in my humble opinion, try out the new digital back and if you like it, sell off or trade in the Leica S gear and put it into the new gear and don't look back.

The 100MP backs are head and shoulders above everything else in terms of image quality and you will likely not use the S again. It might then go to waste, drop in value and you will wish you bought the Hasselblad new instead.
 
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MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
The 100MP backs are head and shoulders above everything else in terms of image quality and you will likely not use the S again. It might then go to waste, drop in value and you will wish you bought the Hasselblad new instead.
This is a very personal thing. I would not carry a Phase XF system with a few lenses, even knowing the IQ is better than the S (and I freely admit that). Neil, OTOH, is, I think, happy carrying a heavier load, and might be delighted with the tradeoff.

This bears repeating:

Pictures I've missed because of
Insufficient MP: 3%
Missed focus: 5%
Sitting in front of computer: 92%

Whatever gets you out shooting is better than anything else.

;)

Matt
 

DB5

Member
This is a very personal thing. I would not carry a Phase XF system with a few lenses, even knowing the IQ is better than the S (and I freely admit that). Neil, OTOH, is, I think, happy carrying a heavier load, and might be delighted with the tradeoff.

This bears repeating:

Pictures I've missed because of
Insufficient MP: 3%
Missed focus: 5%
Sitting in front of computer: 92%

Whatever gets you out shooting is better than anything else.

;)

Matt
:ROTFL: sitting in front of the computer, indeed! :grin:

I take your point about size but if it were just about missing photos, no one would even consider these cameras though would they? i would take a Nikon D850 if that was my priority.

Choosing these cameras is about the image quality and these new 100MP backs have it in shovel loads more. The price of that is well worth a little more weight.

The Hasselblad, a 100 back and 80mm is perfect to me - I don't think the size is that big a difference in the real world. Or you could use a 50mm and crop to standard and tele with the 100 back but the Hasselblad zoom is really very good too for a one lens kit, take it with the 80mm and you're set.
 

John_McMaster

Active member
Hi John
'Ive given the X1D a body swerve as I am still not sure about the EVF (blackouts). I am current in negations with a gentleman on here and hopefully he will accept my offer......if not I will continue looking.'

I think a 100MP back will let you take the same shots with higher detail, given differences between Leica and Hasselblad sensors and lenses, I guess you think you need that. A technical camera would give you something different to the S, but is much slower to use. I am happy with my S and would rather take photos than constantly be changing equipment...

john
 

ndwgolf

Active member
Always a difficult decision but in my humble opinion, try out the new digital back and if you like it, sell off or trade in the Leica S gear and put it into the new gear and don't look back.

The 100MP backs are head and shoulders above everything else in terms of image quality and you will likely not use the S again. It might then go to waste, drop in value and you will wish you bought the Hasselblad new instead.
I am definatly going to get a 100 digital back, I am currently talking with both Hasselblad and Phase One and will see which system best suite what I am trying to achieve and also the main thing is the money and how much I can get back for my S gear......I do like the look of the new IQ3-100 though
Stay posted I usually move pretty quickly

Neil
 

ndwgolf

Active member
Hi John
'Ive given the X1D a body swerve as I am still not sure about the EVF (blackouts). I am current in negations with a gentleman on here and hopefully he will accept my offer......if not I will continue looking.'

I think a 100MP back will let you take the same shots with higher detail, given differences between Leica and Hasselblad sensors and lenses, I guess you think you need that. A technical camera would give you something different to the S, but is much slower to use. I am happy with my S and would rather take photos than constantly be changing equipment...

john
The guy backed out of the deal so thats why I am now back looking again

Neil
 

DB5

Member
I am definatly going to get a 100 digital back, I am currently talking with both Hasselblad and Phase One and will see which system best suite what I am trying to achieve and also the main thing is the money and how much I can get back for my S gear......I do like the look of the new IQ3-100 though
Stay posted I usually move pretty quickly

Neil
Sorry if you already know it but are you aware you can also go the hybrid route - Hasselblad Body and Phase One back.
 
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