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New P1 Industrial System - New Sony Sensor

tcdeveau

Well-known member
Hey guys,
Soooooo I normally yawn at the industrial/aerial systems out there and don't pay much attention. I did, however, notice this one, announced released today:

https://industrial.phaseone.com/landing/The_New_iXM_Series.aspx

Yair from P1/Leaf mentioned over at LuLa that they had been busy making the first 100mp BSI MF system. Welllllll, that system above is 100mp, 33x44mm, and BSI, meaning it looks like it uses the IMX461 chip on the roadmap here (https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/IS/sensor2/application/index.html).

It looks like this is the first camera out there with the new Sony sensors we've all been waiting for....maybe refreshes will come about sooner than we think :cool:
-Todd
 

MrSmith

Member
Price? Or is that another one of those products where the vendor cups the Crown Jewels, squeezes hard and gives you the figure while you wince? :ROTFL:

I guess the real question is what camera that sensor goes in next and will it weigh 1.5kg without a lens?
 

mristuccia

Well-known member
Only 1dB difference in dynamic range between the 50MP (5.3µm) and the 100MP (3.76µm) version.
I guess that the fat-pixel trend will slow down now. :)
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
To quote myself from LL...

Yet another first claimed by Team Phase One, owed to its significant investment in R+D over the past decade.

For those keeping track at home (get out your bingo cards), using ship dates:
- First with long exposures
- First to 60mp
- First to 80mp
- First to MF CMOS*
- First to 100mp
- First to MF BSI

And those are just the modern sensor-based examples of firsts :).

Do note, that the iXM 100mp is quite specific to industrial applications such as aerial mapping. You won't be shooting selfies, cats, or landscape images with it anytime soon. And it's unclear when P1 or anyone else will use this sensor or its future cousins, into a standard photographic product. It's typically much easier to incorporate new sensors into industrial products than products with pesky requirements like batteries, viewfinders, LCDs, menus, user interfaces in multiple languages, on-camera live view, and high volumes of final-production sensors.
 

MrSmith

Member
It's typically much easier to incorporate new sensors into industrial products than products with pesky requirements like batteries, viewfinders, LCDs, menus, user interfaces in multiple languages, on-camera live view, and high volumes of final-production sensors.
Maybe it’s time for a 'strategic partner'? There are various manufacturers out there that excel at this kind of thing :thumbup:
 

ejpeiker

Member
There may be some hints into future camera backs in the video that Phase released about this. You can see that it is set-up for XQD/CFX cards...
 
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gerald.d

Well-known member
To quote myself from LL...
Yet another first claimed by Team Phase One, owed to its significant investment in R+D over the past decade.

For those keeping track at home (get out your bingo cards), using ship dates:
- First with long exposures
- First to 60mp
- First to 80mp
- First to MF CMOS*
- First to 100mp
- First to MF BSI

<snip>

It's typically much easier to new sensors into industrial products than products with pesky requirements like batteries, viewfinders, LCDs, menus, user interfaces in multiple languages, on-camera live view, and high volumes of final-production sensors.
And yet, unless I am very much mistaken, every previous "first" that you detail above made its debut in a consumer back, no?

Which might lead us to believe that for the consumer oriented products, there is a big change coming...


Kind regards,


Gerald.
 

med

Active member
I wonder if this speaks a bit to where Phase One wants to “go to war” with Hasselblad and their new owners (In the skies!)... aerial imaging must be one of the reasons DJI made that purchase, no?
 

hcubell

Well-known member
I wonder if this speaks a bit to where Phase One wants to “go to war” with Hasselblad and their new owners (In the skies!)... aerial imaging must be one of the reasons DJI made that purchase, no?
How's that working out for all of DJI's other competitors? (Does it have any?)
 

Uaiomex

Member
The winner will emerge as Skynet.


I wonder if this speaks a bit to where Phase One wants to “go to war” with Hasselblad and their new owners (In the skies!)... aerial imaging must be one of the reasons DJI made that purchase, no?
 

med

Active member
How's that working out for all of DJI's other competitors? (Does it have any?)
DJI certainly seems to be the 800lb gorilla in the Drone market. I am just speculating that Phase One is trying hard to hold on to what market share they have in the aerial imaging market before DJI/Hasselblad steps up their game. I’m honestly not aware if Hasselblad has any industrial products that compete with Phase One in this space... if they don’t I bet they will soon.
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
DJI certainly seems to be the 800lb gorilla in the Drone market. I am just speculating that Phase One is trying hard to hold on to what market share they have in the aerial imaging market before DJI/Hasselblad steps up their game. I’m honestly not aware if Hasselblad has any industrial products that compete with Phase One in this space... if they don’t I bet they will soon.
Hasselblad has industrial aerial solutions as well, meant for drones and to be mounted in a plane:

https://www.hasselblad.com/industrial/
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
DJI certainly seems to be the 800lb gorilla in the Drone market. I am just speculating that Phase One is trying hard to hold on to what market share they have in the aerial imaging market before DJI/Hasselblad steps up their game. I’m honestly not aware if Hasselblad has any industrial products that compete with Phase One in this space... if they don’t I bet they will soon.
They may be the 800lb gorilla, however they have IMO some of the worst marketing, support and after sales support I have ever seen.

DJI's model is allow customers to create a forum and network to themselves. Attempting to ask DJI anything technical, and you can expect nothing clear or straight forward, net the people manning the "tech" lines are totally worthless, past, did you reboot?, did you hit power? did you hear the start up chime? They ship amazing tech out of the box, that is around 98% ready, however you can get into a lot of trouble if you run into that last 2%. It might be a situation of growing faster than expected, but the company needs to do a major internal focus on support to the end user.

There are thankfully, there are hundreds of pilots, who use DJI products, and can take the info stored on the Drone and give you an exact replay of what may have occurred to cause either the crash or failure. The knowledge that these people give for free is a huge asset to DJI. Even providing a map with a very good approximation to where the drone went down. Does DJI provide the same level of help, NO, could they, YES, simply because the data is all there. Instead, they fall back on basic questions which most pilots have advanced past after a few hours of flight. And getting anyone in a level 2 or 3 support is impossible. And also try getting anyone on the phone with the necessary skills to really help, never will happen.

DJI ships all of their consumer drones, without any product data, besides a basic multi lingual sheet that is worthless. Instead you spend hours on line trying to, get their software to work, or even download so that you can get your drone authentication to DJI, as without it you can't fly. Their Assistant 2 software, when it will work, is very good, however it still has trouble with many win10 or even Mac platforms with running. And note, you need the Assistant 2 software to handle more detailed calibrations like the VPS system. There are still issue daily where a new firmware either bricks a drone either controller or aircraft, or where you are locked out since a new NF database is available but you can't get it to upload to your device.

Djigo4 the main app which is used by all Drone pilots (with a dji product) is still buggy, and is not consistent across the iOS, and Android platform. The Crystalsky monitor, which is a keynote product by DJI is by far the most buggy, and it runs a version of the djigo4 app that is by far the least reliable, which has been admitted by DJI creating lockups and video disconnects during flight. It's safe to assume that if and when DJI brings a 50MP or 100MP drone to market it will have a Crystalsky or similar monitor. Hopefully the OS on the monitor will be more reliable that what is the standard today for a monitor that costs 1000.00, more than many of the consumer drones.

So far we are talking about support for hundreds of thousands of consumer drones, across the entire world. If DJI plans to start putting an industrial sensor/camera of 100MP or even 50MP out there (I realize that there are some models already shipping with much larger sensors but only to a very limited market), then I wish them all the best, however they might stop and look at Phase One's model of support, with dealers which carry a very important aspect of the sale to the end user and are the front line of support.

Amazing tech only gets you so far, support after the sale is also very important, something that Phase One, learned early on.

Paul Caldwell
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
To quote myself from LL...
Yes I agree these are all firsts, and P1 is due a lot of credit for their work. However it's a folly to state that it's unclear that the newer MF chips will be used in future product non industrial. Fuji has already made it quite clear that all of their current lenses were designed to handle 100MP, in the 44 x 33 sized chip and I am sure Hasselblad has also. Fuji has even spoken of the new camera several times enough to accept the fact it's not if but when. GFX 100S. Again I am sure Hasselblad is also working on a very similar product.

What's tragic, is the fact the P1 has to be also. But it's the P1 model to hold off till the very day of announcement. But I feel it's either go with a lighter more modern system or be left behind by most of the higher end market.

P1 makes great equipment, and there always be a market for the top/high end. However as more modern/lighter/faster system which can provide the same sensor become available, P1 and the XF/Schneider lens platform will have some issues. Just compare a GFX or X1D with a 23mm or 30mm lens to a P1/IQ100/35mm Schneider, in both mass/weight/and overall portability.

Yesterday, an example.

working in 30mph wind. Carrying a XF/40-80/IQ100 and GFX 50S/32-64. All the P1 shots were on tripod, and limited since the wind would never allow the vibration tool to fire the camera due to slight vibration in the tripod. Had to switch to a different single shot mode no ES and all Focal plane. Shutter speed needed to be in the 1/320 to 1/500 range to stop the motion. Hand holding the P1 solution was out of the question and even with the HAP2 installed in the XF, I still found that the AF was less then stellar, so I need to manual tweak the focus. Total weight of the system over 8.5lbs with L bracket.

Fuji GFX, less than 4lbs total weight, smaller/ligher footprint. All shots were hand held, much more variety in shot selection. AF worked tack on every time and for me the fact that I could get more than 1 AF point was invaluable.

Sadly I realized that my days of carrying the P1 system have more than likely come to an end on any hike longer than 1 mile in. I love the IQ, and results but the penalty of both carrying the mass of the system and being tied to a tripod for most of the shots (which adds even more weight) has made systems like the Hasselblad X1D or Fuji GFX where I will make my future investments.

Paul Caldwell
 

Wayne Fox

Workshop Member
Paul, I'm pretty much following your same thoughts. The XF on a hike over a mile means I need to drop out all but one or maybe two lenses, and even that's a little iffy. I've got a GFX I've played with, and as much as I love the IQ of the XF/3100, a GFX with a 100mp sensor will probably offer all the quality I need. True a 150mp 4-150 would be awesome, and maybe if the BSI 150 sensor improves the issues with tech lenses, I may opt for it which lightens things up considerably, since I like using the cambo but I"m getting really tired of working with LCC's.

2018 is shaping up to be an interesting year. And who knows, as was mentioned Phase is so tight lipped they could surprise us with a mirrorless option of their own, but seems that's pretty tough secret to keep, and maybe a secret not worth keeping before too many move the Fulji and Hasselblad. Just not sure if they have the resources to pull it off anytime soon, or if they're just think it's not a market they are going to go after.
 

jduncan

Active member
Hey guys,
Soooooo I normally yawn at the industrial/aerial systems out there and don't pay much attention. I did, however, notice this one, announced released today:

https://industrial.phaseone.com/landing/The_New_iXM_Series.aspx

Yair from P1/Leaf mentioned over at LuLa that they had been busy making the first 100mp BSI MF system. Welllllll, that system above is 100mp, 33x44mm, and BSI, meaning it looks like it uses the IMX461 chip on the roadmap here (https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/IS/sensor2/application/index.html).

It looks like this is the first camera out there with the new Sony sensors we've all been waiting for for....maybe refreshes will come about sooner than we think :cool:
-Todd
Hi,

After reviewing the technologies, it's pretty clear that the next P1 Machine will be quite a significant jump from the IQ3:

  1. Lead shutter a little bit better than the H6D 1/2500 vs 1/2000
  2. Storage a little bit better than the H6D XQD instead of CFAST
  3. Connectivity as good as the H6D USB-C


The form-factor is still an open issue. They could simply stay with SLR modular (and keep the higher prices), or the could go mirrorless.

The new lenses could be used both by the aerial solution and the mirrorless camera, plus old lenses with adapters.

It points to P1 preparing to take the lead. On the other hand, the X2D and the GFX100 are probably coming around the same time frame. They will be improved and based on a proven platform. This machine seems a little better than the current generation, but, Will it be enough to hold against the next generation? Exciting times, as they say.

Best regards,
 
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