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New Rodenstock HRSW coming - 135/140mm!

TheDude

Member
My best hope is a NO shutter option, (but with aperture of course) so you can use the Focal Plane shutter option that comes with Alpa FPS/Silex, Fuji MF body, etc
I am not aware of any commercially available diaphragm that could replace a Copal shutter.

Another option would be of course to use something like the Waterhouse stop (diaphragm).
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
In spite of finally a new lens, I wonder how viable this Large Format lens market still is?

I heard that the new lens line up will be available in Rodenstock eShutter only. (Production of Copal 0 shutters stopped years ago.) However, digital backs are now getting electronic shutters which may be the most convenient way of using these digital backs in most situations. In this case, Rodenstock eShutter offers no real advantage but adds bulk, complexity, and cost.

On-sensor electronic shutter capability will certainly improve, but currently the advantages of the Sinar/Rollei eShutter solution is that there's no issue with moving subjects (would not stretch them), and they are also able to capture with strobe at lens-based sync speeds.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

TheDude

Member
On-sensor electronic shutter capability will certainly improve, but currently the advantages of the Sinar/Rollei eShutter solution is that there's no issue with moving subjects (would not stretch them), and they are also able to capture with strobe at lens-based sync speeds.


Steve Hendrix/CI
Yes, I agree. We don’t know yet when we will have an electronic shutter that is global (cf. rolling).

Are the Sinar eShutter and Rodenstock eShutter interchangeable (if not identical)? My understanding is that the Schneider and Rollei shutter systems have been discontinued.

Thanks.

MN
 
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narikin

New member
On-sensor electronic shutter capability will certainly improve, but currently the advantages of the Sinar/Rollei eShutter solution is that there's no issue with moving subjects (would not stretch them), and they are also able to capture with strobe at lens-based sync speeds.


Steve Hendrix/CI
Sorry Steve, I'm confused - the Rodenstock eShutter is the same as Rollei/Sinar?
In which case there remains a problem: Yes it may not have the rolling shutter effect, but with a maximum speed of 1/250 (or even 1/500) it cannot freeze action. I can do that with a FPS working on location. Sharp people, not blurry ones - a big difference.

I also really don't want to be on location with an e-shutter controller, batteries and charger, added to my baggage.
 

narikin

New member
Looking online, a 'mobile eshutter controller' (for location work) is $2500, PLUS each eshutter-d lens seems to be at a premium of $2000 over a regular Copal-0 lens. So that's $4500 to be working with a Rodenstock e-shutter, that I'll be locking open and using FPS. I will not buy into this. :mad:

Yes, lenses have to be accurately positioned in shutters, with correct shimming. But plenty of people can do this well. Looks like I'll be finding a Copal 0 and paying for that, or... not getting this lens. Sigh.
 

stngoldberg

Well-known member
Those of us that have Copal 0 enabled Rodenstock and Schneider lenses are fortunate; because if I read Steve’s posting correctly, these electronic shutters on the new lenses will be really expensive!
This information really ratchets up the cost of folks getting into new technical cameras which is a shame due to all of the advantages those cameras bring.
Stanley
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Sorry Steve, I'm confused - the Rodenstock eShutter is the same as Rollei/Sinar?
In which case there remains a problem: Yes it may not have the rolling shutter effect, but with a maximum speed of 1/250 (or even 1/500) it cannot freeze action. I can do that with a FPS working on location. Sharp people, not blurry ones - a big difference.

I also really don't want to be on location with an e-shutter controller, batteries and charger, added to my baggage.

Aaahhh! Sorry, I meant Sinar/RODENSTOCK (not Sinar/Rollei). I didn't mean to confuse anyone.

Yes, there are limitations to all solutions. Trying to freeze action at 1/250th would be one for the current sensor-based electronic shutters and the Sinar/Rodenstock eShutter. Alpa FPS helps solve this with its 1/4000th shutter speed capability from the modified Mamiya shutter, but has its own set of limitations as well (for example relying on a second Alpa camera like a Max/STC for movements with view camera lenses).

A much faster on-sensor electronic shutter would be a welcome advance. But it doesn't help those with previous generation capture devices, while an eShutter solution can be added to previous gen camera systems. It's an option. It is pricey to add an eShutter solution, but if you are purchasing new lenses, other than the controller, it is roughly in the same price ballpark as purchasing a lens in copal shutter.

To the point of Narikan's follow up post, if you have a copal shutter issue, it might make sense to purchase an inexpensive 2nd hand lens similar to the one you have and swap shutters out. We've done this successfully.

These are all options to consider.


Steve
 

dchew

Well-known member
Aaahhh! Sorry, I meant Sinar/RODENSTOCK (not Sinar/Rollei). I didn't mean to confuse anyone.

To the point of Narikan's follow up post, if you have a copal shutter issue, it might make sense to purchase an inexpensive 2nd hand lens similar to the one you have and swap shutters out. We've done this successfully.

These are all options to consider.


Steve
If I go for this lens (depending on how much it costs, how big it is and how much it weighs), this is what I will probably try, even though it will probably require some shimming. From what I've heard this will be a beefy lens, so connecting to a Copal 0 will be risky, probably worse than the 32hr. Or, break down the lens every time it gets put away.

As for the e-shutter, I honestly haven't used my copal shutters once since the IQ e-shutter feature was released.

Dave
 

TheDude

Member
This ... really ratchets up the cost of folks getting into new technical cameras ... Stanley
I am wondering whether this might be effectively the start of the end for digital technical cameras & lenses.

Few years ago, I bought a Linhof Techno & Hasselblad CFV-50c Back as a digital replacement for my Linhof Technikardan & Readload/Quickload/Polaroid Back. Without positive memories of my Technikardan, I doubt I would have bought the Techno & CFV-50c. I am probably not the only one who followed this path. But for someone new to this type of photography not tradition bound, there are now other, arguably more attractive approaches.

And now my main camera, even for my serious work, is my iPhone X!
 
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TheDude

Member
To the point of Narikan's follow up post, if you have a copal shutter issue, it might make sense to purchase an inexpensive 2nd hand lens similar to the one you have and swap shutters out. We've done this successfully.
Steve
Have done that too. The proper aperture scales can be bought relatively inexpensively. Notwithstanding, the factory Rodenstock technician told me, for the best performance, each Rodenstock lens must be individually mated to its Copal shutter using spacers and other adjustments.
How true this is, or only relevant for Digaron lenses, I do not know.
 

narikin

New member
From Alpa's recent article on shutters:

"The digitization of photography has brought another change in shutters. If one could simply unscrew the front and rear lens elements of a lens from the shutter at analogue times and then use the shutter in another lens, this is no longer possible today. One reason for this is the lack of housing stability of the shutters from the analogue period. Today the shutters are optimally adapted to the respective lenses and a shutter change would lead to a loss of the adjustment of the azimuth and the correct dimension of the aperture."

and, regarding electronic leaf shutter (Sinar/Roddie):

"ALPA will introduce its own solution in 2018."

which I very much imagine is a rebranded (and repriced) sinar e-shutter.

So we're screwed. You have to get an eshutter with the new lenses, (unless Rodenstock are offering a factory calibrated retro-fit of Copal 0) With a shutter speed of 1/250 the maximum. So no more freezing moving people, using FPS, for example.

And Yes, even if you are using the digital back's own Electronic Shutter, you need to be able to lock open this lens shutter and set an aperture, so you'll still be need this eShutter and the controller. Another $2500. Lucky you.

Sigh...
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
Have done that too. The proper aperture scales can be bought relatively inexpensively. Notwithstanding, the factory Rodenstock technician told me, for the best performance, each Rodenstock lens must be individually mated to its Copal shutter using spacers and other adjustments.
How true this is, or only relevant for Digaron lenses, I do not know.
Copal 0 shutters can be purchased from SKGrimes as well as any type of spacer that would be needed. I have removed numerous lenses from various mounts (Alpa/Arca) and have never run into any type of special spacers. The lenses are designed to be used with the spacing provided by the Copal 0 shutter and the only variance would be if the shutter was off.

Victor
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
A factory Rodenstock technician told me that each Rodenstock lens must be individually mated to its Copal shutter using spacers and other adjustments.

Each such mating costs about 700 euro (mating only, Copal shutter not included) and takes two weeks or so.
As far as I am concerned this is complete BS..... I've had a 'bad' 90mm Rody SW shipped to me in Copal 0 which had no 'special' super duper spacers. This particular lens had skewing which is almost always a sign of a Copal shutter being out of plumb. The fix is to replace the shutter with one that is even. Any and every large format lens that I have owned that needed to be repaired needed a Copal shutter replacement because of uneven flatness.

Victor
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
From Alpa's recent article on shutters:

"The digitization of photography has brought another change in shutters. If one could simply unscrew the front and rear lens elements of a lens from the shutter at analogue times and then use the shutter in another lens, this is no longer possible today. One reason for this is the lack of housing stability of the shutters from the analogue period. Today the shutters are optimally adapted to the respective lenses and a shutter change would lead to a loss of the adjustment of the azimuth and the correct dimension of the aperture."

and, regarding electronic leaf shutter (Sinar/Roddie):

"ALPA will introduce its own solution in 2018."

which I very much imagine is a rebranded (and repriced) sinar e-shutter.

So we're screwed. You have to get an eshutter with the new lenses, (unless Rodenstock are offering a factory calibrated retro-fit of Copal 0) With a shutter speed of 1/250 the maximum. So no more freezing moving people, using FPS, for example.

And Yes, even if you are using the digital back's own Electronic Shutter, you need to be able to lock open this lens shutter and set an aperture, so you'll still be need this eShutter and the controller. Another $2500. Lucky you.

Sigh...
Hype......Hype......Hype. Don't believe everything you read. These people are in business to make MONEY, any way they can.

All will be OK..... take a deep breath.

Victor

Edit: With so many other solutions available today (Fuji/Hassy/mirrorless) and more to come maybe this is all moot. Again..... all will be OK. I have always considered the e_shutter to be a thing of the past and I am convinced that it is and would never commit new dollars to it.
 

Aviv1887

Member
How do you know or can you see if a copal shutter is "plumb"? Or only by testing the shutter with lens attached?
 

TheDude

Member
So we're screwed. You have to get an eshutter with the new lenses, (unless Rodenstock are offering a factory calibrated retro-fit of Copal 0) With a shutter speed of 1/250 the maximum. So no more freezing moving people, using FPS, for example.
I have been told that Copal shutter will still be available as a "repair" replacement.
 

TheDude

Member
have never run into any type of special spacers. The lenses are designed to be used with the spacing provided by the Copal 0 shutter and the only variance would be if the shutter was off.
My 23mm Digaron front lens element positively has two (tiny) spacers. I have been told that they are individually selected for each lens.

None of my other "analog or "digital" lenses ( Apo-Sironar Digital Rodenstock and Apo Digitar T Schneider) have such spacers.
 

TheDude

Member
With so many other solutions available today (Fuji/Hassy/mirrorless) and more to come maybe this is all moot. Again..... all will be OK. I have always considered the e_shutter to be a thing of the past and I am convinced that it is and would never commit new dollars to it.
We will know more once the Rodenstock Photo Optics website is up again. (Has been down for months!)
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
My 23mm Digaron front lens element positively has two (tiny) spacers. I have been told that they are individually selected for each lens.

None of my other "analog or "digital" lenses ( Apo-Sironar Digital Rodenstock and Apo Digitar T Schneider) have such spacers.
Sounds to me that Rody got a Copal shutter that was just a tiny amount thinner than the spec so instead of tossing it they added a couple of small spacers (easily could have been just one thicker spacer). What would they ever do if the Copal was too thick? Spacers only add to the distance between the two elements. Why don't you remove the spacers and see if it has any effect on lens performance? I'm not a lens designer but I have to think that there is a spacing window that allows for the rear and front elements to exist for spec performance. There are just too many variables for spacing that would cause a nightmare if this wasn't true.

Victor
 
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