Digital Long Exposure - looking for advice on which sensor

[young'ee]

I am interested in light painting, which means exposures up to 10 mins.

Reading back through the archives here I've read that CMOS is better then CCD for LE. But I was unable to find out why this is so.

What I did learn was that the Pentax 645Z is highly regarded for LE, even more so then other late model CMOS sensors.

Can a P25+ or a P45+ compete in this area compared to the 645Z? Or is it just plain wasting time to consider a P+ sensor for light painting type exposures.

I know this is Dantes realm but I am trying to avoid going into yet another camera sub system. If I can do reasonably well with a P+ I would rather do that and use what I have, but if it really is chalk and cheese in the difference between a P+ and 645Z, well.....then you know what I have to do..get a 645Z.

However, I would prefer to stick with a P+ if I can. What I dont know is how well these P+ backs do/dont do with 10 minute exposures.

Any advice for me on this from the gurus ? (most of you here in other words)

 

[Paul2660]

p45+ is the only CCD back I would consider for long exposure.

Up to 1 hour. Mandatory dark frame of previous exposure so a 10 minutes exposure will take 20 minutes.

P645Z. Will have more versatility. Much more. Still one of the cleanest cameras using the 50 mp CMOS Sony. Dark frame can be turned off.

Paul C

 

[young'ee]

Hi Paul,

I do get the mandatory dark frame and that is something to consider for sure.

I think I can live with that as the style of light painting I am going after only allows "one go" per twilight anyway (have to catch the nautical twilight - which is only about 10 mins long here) - so making a 10 minute exposure then doing a 10 minute black frame is only the inconvenience of another 10 minutes as I cant make another 10 minute exposure after the 1st try as its dark by then. I can see the hassle but not sure its a show stopper per se.

What I am wondering, and I have no way to tell, is what sort of difference is there between a P45+ and 645Z if they both took the same composition - how big a difference is there between the 2 images in that scenario? Resolution wont make a big difference at this level so it could only be DR /cleanness and "look" (I think - but stand to be corrected)

When you say that the "P645Z. Will have more versatility. Much more" what do you mean?

My intended usage is wildflowers and waterfalls + light painting twilight scapes - all tripod work and all a slow work method of one type or another.

I have acquired some nice P67 glass, so the 645Z works in that aspect, but I can also use the same P67 glass with my FPS 12 and Pentax adapter + whatever back I choose to clip to the back of the FPS - so multiple ways to go here.

I just dont want to go the route of a P45+ if it is **REALLY** a very very obvious difference from the 645Z and I dont want to go for a 645Z if the difference is not THAT great.......and I have no way to test here for myself as I dont have a P45+ or a 645Z

Thanks for your input, tis appreciated.

 

[dougpeterson]

I would suggest the IQ1 50mp which is now available as CPO (certified pre-owned), assuming budget is a major factor.

The IQ4 150mp will likely be the new long exposure king, but is obviously a much different price point.

The P45+ was the best long exposure CCD of its time, but CMOS is very compelling as a sensor tech for long exposure.

Don’t underestimate the impact of software here. Raw processing is key to suppressing stuck pixels without losing subject detail and rendering a pleasant grain rather than clumpy noise.

 

[young'ee]

Hi Doug,

You most likely dont remember this post but it is what has triggered my "curiosity"about the P45+ (or P25+ for my fat Pixel fetish)


https://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium...ks/21296-long-exposure-p25-vs-aptus-22-a.html


and I quote ....

"A P45+ (and to slightly lesser extent a P30+/P25+/P20+/P21+) with modern firmware and processed in Capture One 5 captures a shocking amount of highlight/shadow detail in a long exposure raw file. If you haven't used this combination then you haven't seen what digital long exposures can be.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)"

While I get technology marches on, I am trying to understand how big are the differences in later tech and the P45+ (given up on P25+ - far too many references to the P45+ being the absolute king of CCD LE).

There is no way I can get anywhere near a place where I could test or demo, so I am relying on others experience and description to make a choice. Its the best I can do. So with that said, I am trying to figure whether to go P45+ or 645Z. I do have P67 glass so the 645Z is no hardship but I prefer to catch up with you all and get some miles on the clock with a P series - at least for now.

Thanks for the input, much obliged.

 

[mjr]

It's a personal opinion of course but I think for 10 minute exposures with light painting, I'd go with the P45+, for one, the power of the Z is in amazing shadow recovery amongst other things plus higher ISO performance, I presume that with a 10 minute shot and light painting, you will end up creating the exposure you want with the light, so it's unlikely to need big shadow lifts etc? You'll likely be shooting at as low an ISO as possible as well for that duration, so the benefit of C1, plus the cost of a P45+ and the fact that you could use it on a tech camera, means for me it would be the choice. If you're expecting to do lots of post, pushing the files a lot then the Z has the advantage for sure, but I guess you'd end up changing your technique to ensure you get the exposure you want? I have been using the GFX for some longer exposures recently and it's very good, but not up to the 10 minute level, I may try later just for the fun of it!

Just my thoughts, best of luck whichever route you go.

Cheers

Mat

 

[dougpeterson]

Hi Doug,

You most likely dont remember this post but it is what has triggered my "curiosity"about the P45+ (or P25+ for my fat Pixel fetish)


https://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium...ks/21296-long-exposure-p25-vs-aptus-22-a.html


and I quote ....

"A P45+ (and to slightly lesser extent a P30+/P25+/P20+/P21+) with modern firmware and processed in Capture One 5 captures a shocking amount of highlight/shadow detail in a long exposure raw file. If you haven't used this combination then you haven't seen what digital long exposures can be.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)"

Ah 2010. Feels like a lifetime ago. I was in a different city/state, working for a different dealer, with a different job title, not yet married, and a P45+ was the pinnacle of technical image quality.

Every time I look at one of our P45+ raw files it holds up shockingly well considering the sensor is from 2005. It's a real testament to how well Phase One products stay relevant regarding their image quality.

That said, I really don't have a good answer for you re the P45+ and 645Z for this specific use case. The Pentax sensor is significantly newer and the underlying CMOS tech is unquestionably better for long exposure, but the P45+ was a very mature system and Phase One's dark frame tech, heat sinking, and raw processing are all class leading. Without putting them side-by-side for a 10 minute exposure (which I've not done) I would be hard pressed to know what the resulting comparison would be. Almost all of my testing/comparison experience with a P45+ was in an era with different benchmarks against which I would have measured and different expectations which I would have held it to.

 

[JoelM]

My good friend did these with, I believe, a Pentax 645Z and Nikon 810.

Larger than Life Photo Gallery by Butch Welch at pbase.com

Joel

 

[young'ee]

Just my thoughts, best of luck whichever route you go.

Cheers

Mat

Yep - all good points. I dont have my drivers licence yet on a P series so hard for me to make the call. Two things have become clearer though - if a P series then it HAS to be the P45+. The second thought that has solidified is that the 645Z is highly regarded for LE and is probably the way to go if one moves beyond the P series and into 50+MP class.

I dont suppose anyone has a scene shot on both sensors?......I am guessing that's a long shot indeed.

Thanks for the thoughts - it helps in thinking this through.

 

[young'ee]

Ah 2010. Feels like a lifetime ago. I was in a different city/state, working for a different dealer, with a different job title, not yet married, and a P45+ was the pinnacle of technical image quality.

Hear Hear ! Yes indeed, 2010 feels like a lifetime ago.

But is shockingly good from 2010 still good today? I get tech HAS improved a lot. But is that 2010 good, good enough today or would I be at a disadvantage using a P45+ ? compared to a 645Z ? Will an end user of my work even notice the difference between the two ? I envisage my work will be offset printed in promotional spreads etc - so not big at all.

A good analogy here is Hi-Fi. You can get 90% of the way to the best there is for sensible money. You can get to 95% by spending a bit more and going to the next level. But if you want that last few percent that most of us cant even hear anyway, the sky is the limit on what you can spend.

Is this situation I am trying to describe like Hi-Fi? Compared to the latest and greatest a P45+ will get you to 90% of whats possible but if you want those last few percent that IS possible today with current tech, then step up the the latest?

in 2010 not yet married. Hmmm, I wonder how far down that path you are it surely is an adventure that marriage thing !

 

[Boinger]

I had the 645z and it is a great camera the newer lenses are great. You can't go wrong with it. It still is one of the best rated sensors around. You will get much more DR and for long exposures it is really an undisputed king.

I don't think even the newer sensors have beaten the 645z in terms of clean long exposure.

And you can get it cheap.

The only reason I can think of for the P45 is if you are planning to use a tech camera.

Otherwise you will save a LOT of money going the 645z route.

 

[young'ee]

So....I bought a Kapture Group V mount stitching adapter for my GX680III.

Then I bought a used Alpa V mount back plate for the FPS 12

Then in the middle of the night last night I snagged an Phase One RZ V mount adapter...... for the Pro IID

Looks like I am going to the try the P25+ or P45+ route and see how it goes.

I feel like a kid in a candy shop - I dont know what to grab first !

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

The P45+ is a 39 MP back, with about 12 EV DR per pixel. The 645Z is a 50 MP camera with close to 14EV DR.

The P45+ is a back, not a complete camera. So you need add more gear. It works on a technical camera, but you would need a sliding back for convenient work flow.

I have the P45+, it can produce excellent results, but I cannot see any good reason to use it instead of my 42 MP 24*36 mm gear, so it sees very little usage.

Best regards
Erik

I am interested in light painting, which means exposures up to 10 mins.

Reading back through the archives here I've read that CMOS is better then CCD for LE. But I was unable to find out why this is so.

What I did learn was that the Pentax 645Z is highly regarded for LE, even more so then other late model CMOS sensors.

Can a P25+ or a P45+ compete in this area compared to the 645Z? Or is it just plain wasting time to consider a P+ sensor for light painting type exposures.

I know this is Dantes realm but I am trying to avoid going into yet another camera sub system. If I can do reasonably well with a P+ I would rather do that and use what I have, but if it really is chalk and cheese in the difference between a P+ and 645Z, well.....then you know what I have to do..get a 645Z.

However, I would prefer to stick with a P+ if I can. What I dont know is how well these P+ backs do/dont do with 10 minute exposures.

Any advice for me on this from the gurus ? (most of you here in other words)