Phase One - a cautionary tale regarding their "support"

[algrove]

I had a good experience, but it was in the US and received a loaner within 24 hours of Fedex shipping. My original eventually had to go to Denmark and I took over 7k images on the loaner since it was during an extended trip and it took 6-7 weeks for repair completion.

To this day I do not know why we have to contact "our" dealer for these type of issues. Most if not all backs come with a 5 year loaner warranty. Our gear is registered on the Phase site by serial number and owner. Why should we not be able to contact the "importer" or the nearest Phase office for the promised loaner with our Phase site information?

Why not give us a contact email/phone directly at the factory and all country importers for international failures.

 

[Paul2660]

There was a buyout in 2014. CEO is fully incentivised.

This is what that got you: an expansion into institutional (drones, repro), yearly updates with full on marketing for small updates (TriChromatic is a marketing move to generate sales in a year with no sensor updates), low trade in values (they only give you ebay trade in plus a bit more and not the loophole from the past where with some bargaining you could get higher trade ins), the support described above and a focus on sales. The IQ150 announcement has been rushed out of the door to generate preorder cashflow as they have grown a lot more than their sales, which have stalled. 80m in 17 and in 16 if I remember correctly. Thats panic mode for PE if you increase personnel to 300, spend tons into R&D and market forces move against you (democratisation of crop medium format systems).

There was no real growth with Phase One - just the expansion into institutionals. Now they are trying to generate cashflow although product is in alpha and months away from shipping. You only do this if you feel the pressure. As I said, to anyone contemplating buying a system now - just wait. My dealer told me 5k EUR is a usual discount after the first wave of sales to enthusiasts.

Best
P

Not sure anyone really knows the "status" of P1, as they are privately held and publish only the positive sales figures, but not in relation to anything else.

The IQ4 150 is the first back I can remember that P1 announced that did not have some supply at anno. It appears for sure on this one that there are at least a few issues to still be worked out. With the IQ3100, New backs shipped before upgrades, (wasn't too happy on that), but P1 did have new backs shipping at anno.

Back to the OP, shouldn't have happened, period. The price point of any P1 back purchased through a dealer with a value add, should never allowed this to occur. P1 or Dealer or both most definitely did not live up to the expectations.

Per the comments on shipping, rates, insurance, customs etc. Net, any company that is selling the gear should have a policy to handle overseas shipping, with full insurance, with a carrier like Fed Express or UPS or DHL. Any of these carriers could get a back around the world in 24 hours. Any dealer worth their salt, has a better rate on a waybill (which included full insured value) than the average photographer. DJI can ship an Inspire from China to the US in 2 days, sure it's not a 40K item, but it's still high dollar, around 8K.

Hope it all works out OK for Gerald.

Paul C

 

[bab]

p1 most likely has a block insurance policy with 1m limits using common carriers. So they could for ex ship 5 bodies and ten lenses in one box to Hong Kong next day which would be more like two day service.

Being that you were promised time after time things that didn’t come about it tells me either the dealer or you were having to push P1 for a quick turnaround and someone at P1 dropped the ball.

I was in Hong Kong Sept 9th thru the 19th for sure no packages were delivered the 15th Saturday, Saturday night late or early Sunday morning the 16th the airport was closed. When Typhoon Mangkhut battered Hong Kong on Sunday, it felled at least 17,000 trees and smashed hundreds of windows. Typhoon winds shut down the entire city. The city remained closed until early Monday the 17th, not sure this situation helped your shipment.

By the way a phone call to Fedex from the shipper is all it takes to reroute a shipment I do it weekly.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Not sure anyone really knows the "status" of P1, as they are privately held and publish only the positive sales figures, but not in relation to anything else.

The IQ4 150 is the first back I can remember that P1 announced that did not have some supply at anno. It appears for sure on this one that there are at least a few issues to still be worked out. With the IQ3100, New backs shipped before upgrades, (wasn't too happy on that), but P1 did have new backs shipping at anno.

Back to the OP, shouldn't have happened, period. The price point of any P1 back purchased through a dealer with a value add, should never allowed this to occur. P1 or Dealer or both most definitely did not live up to the expectations.

Per the comments on shipping, rates, insurance, customs etc. Net, any company that is selling the gear should have a policy to handle overseas shipping, with full insurance, with a carrier like Fed Express or UPS or DHL. Any of these carriers could get a back around the world in 24 hours. Any dealer worth their salt, has a better rate on a waybill (which included full insured value) than the average photographer. DJI can ship an Inspire from China to the US in 2 days, sure it's not a 40K item, but it's still high dollar, around 8K.

Hope it all works out OK for Gerald.

Paul C

You can look up their public accounts in Denmark. Full audited P&L. They are barely turning profit as they want to grow, grow and grow. Problem is growth has stalled. And with 300 employees and 3 products plus lenses its getting tougher. Especially with the downward pressure from Hassy and Fuji. Just wait 9 months and prices will go down. Nobody should buy now, they are just milking first movers. No value protection as by 2020 they will introduce a new back which will significantly devalue your new 150.

 

[Christopher]

You say they want to create cash flow, fine, but I don’t need to pay my IQ4 150 before it’s delivered.....

 

[PeterA]

Ulf Liljegren -



My IQ3 100 is under warranty. Like many here I have had a long relationship with Phase One and have spent a great deal of money with them.

That relationship ends today. They won't be getting a single penny from me in the future.

Why should anyone be expected to put up with this kind of "service" on a $40K product?

.....

I'm sorry to read that account, however I am interested in what you would replace a Phase One system with given your requirements? I've been through a few 'exit and never go back' situations over the years - but the exit was only ever executed when a better algternative was at hand.

atb
Pete

 

[gerald.d]

I'm sorry to read that account, however I am interested in what you would replace a Phase One system with given your requirements? I've been through a few 'exit and never go back' situations over the years - but the exit was only ever executed when a better algternative was at hand.

atb
Pete

Hi Pete -

I'm looking at all options at the moment. My camera is a CapCAM (https://www.capcam.org/) which I understand can work with digital backs from Hasselblad and Sinar as well. Given the lamentable "support" and condescending attitude from Phase One, I would be more than happy to move to either of those solutions and provide plenty of PR as to why I made the move.

Alternatively, I am exploring with CapCAM the possibility of creating a mount for the camera that I could use with mirrorless camera options (Sony A7, or Fuji GFX/R for example).

As for my current situation, I cannot take any photos.

I've told Phase One that they have three options. Send me a back that works with my computer as promised by their website, send me a computer that works with my back, or give me a full refund.

This KB article - https://www.phaseone.com/Search/Article.aspx?articleid=1280&languageid=1 - states unequivocally that all built-in Mac USB 3 cards work.

And then their support simply states that it's Apple's problem when it doesn't work, they are right, everyone else is wrong, and that I was basically an idiot for buying a iMac and should have bought something else.

Interestingly, having just upgraded to macOS Mojave, the first thing I got when trying to connect the back to the computer this morning was a message to the effect of "USB ports shut down due to USB accessory attempting to draw too much power."

Now if someone could explain to me why - when all USB power options on the back are set to "off" - the back tries to draw too much power from the computer simply by connecting it, I'm all ears.

I would put money on the P1 backs being out of spec for USB 3 power delivery capability, and would just love for someone to test them independently.

And support's (this is direct from Denmark, not through my dealer), excuse for the timeline that I shared earlier?

"Before i start to explain the rutines for using this - let me appologize for the shipping in Asia did not go as expected due to holidays and weekend and general shipping delay. We are not always in charge of this!"

I invite anyone reading this to go back to the posts 1 and 9 in this thread and tell me if they believe that's an acceptable explanation.

The sheer arrogance of these people just beggars belief.

Kind regards,


Gerald.

 

[jerome_m]

Interestingly, having just upgraded to macOS Mojave, the first thing I got when trying to connect the back to the computer this morning was a message to the effect of "USB ports shut down due to USB accessory attempting to draw too much power."

Just a side note: have you tried connecting the back through a USB hub? That could solve that power problem.

 

[glenerrolrd]

Just a side note: have you tried connecting the back through a USB hub? That could solve that power problem.

Agree....this sounds like a short . Could be in the back ,the Mac or the USB cable . Simple test ..try another cable ,then Mac and finally the Back .

Has Phase confirmed that the Back connects appropriately with a Mac at their location.

 

[dougpeterson]

Just a side note: have you tried connecting the back through a USB hub? That could solve that power problem.

+1

We (DT) find that iMac ports are often inconsistent for tethering of any camera (Phase, Nikon, Canon, Sony etc). I agree the KB article should include a note to that effect (e.g. "supported, but found to be not as consistent as the pro models").

But don't take my (or P1's) word for this. Contact a variety of professional Digitechs and ask their experience with tethering (any brand of) cameras to iMacs without a hub. If you line up a dozen iMacs (without hubs) with a dozen cameras connected by high-quality 10ft to 15ft cables, most will work with most; which is to say some will not work with some, not limited by any particular brand or model. Adding a hub resolves this annoyance.

A hub, in addition to resolving nearly all iMac port-based stability issues, also makes the connection point more easily accessible in many/most tethering situations and reduces wear and tear on the iMac port (since any connecting/disconnecting of tether cable is into the hub port which can be replaced easily by replacing the hub every year or two).

Add a small high-quality hub. Your dealer should have recommendations that are easily available in Europe.

 

[gerald.d]

+1

We (DT) find that iMac ports are often inconsistent for tethering of any camera (Phase, Nikon, Canon, Sony etc). I agree the KB article should include a note to that effect (e.g. "supported, but found to be not as consistent as the pro models").

But don't take my (or P1's) word for this. Contact a variety of professional Digitechs and ask their experience with tethering (any brand of) cameras to iMacs without a hub. If you line up a dozen iMacs (without hubs) with a dozen cameras connected by high-quality 10ft to 15ft cables, most will work with most; which is to say some will not work with some, not limited by any particular brand or model. Adding a hub resolves this annoyance.

A hub, in addition to resolving nearly all iMac port-based stability issues, also makes the connection point more easily accessible in many/most tethering situations and reduces wear and tear on the iMac port (since any connecting/disconnecting of tether cable is into the hub port which can be replaced easily by replacing the hub every year or two).

Add a small high-quality hub. Your dealer should have recommendations that are easily available in Europe.

I await with interest to see whether Phase One will send me one.

FWIW, my back is permanently tethered. It doesn't go anywhere. Although it is worth pointing out that I have never had any issues with any other USB device (memory stick, hard drive, iPhone, Android phone, iPad, printer, scanner, speakers, mic, headset, headphones, etc etc) connecting to any computer - be it laptop or PC or either Mac (Pro and "crap") or Windows machine.

Ever. Regardless of how many times I connect or disconnect the device.

Oddly - the only device that has ever caused a problem is a Phase One back.

But yeah - the fault is of course with Microsoft or Apple.

And actually the only company whose word counts for anything in this is Phase One.

It is useful that you state categorically that the information on their website is BS. That will be useful if I have to resort to legal measures to resolve this. EU law, which as a manufacturer Phase One are subject to, is extremely strict on the kind of deception you highlight.

Do you by any chance have any information regarding the voltage used and amps drawn by the back? I've checked the USB 3.0 specs and would be very intrigued to see if it is within them.

Kind regards,.

Gerald.

 

[jng]

I feel your pain...

FWIW, I routinely tether my IQ backs (previously an IQ160, now an IQ3100) to my early 2016 Macbook via USB3 with no issues. Perhaps this might be an iMac-specific problem after all? As mentioned above, it seems that trying a USB hub would be an easy (and cheap) thing to try and would save much time and additional frustration if it actually fixes the problem.

Also note that according to Capture Integration's blog, Mojave is not officially supported in C1 v11.3 https://captureintegration.com/mac-os-mojave-10-14-not-currently-supported-in-capture-one-11/ (I am a few updates behind on both, as I am generally in no rush to fix things that aren't broke).

Hope you get this sorted out soon!

John

 

[gerald.d]

I feel your pain...

FWIW, I routinely tether my IQ backs (previously an IQ160, now an IQ3100) to my early 2016 Macbook via USB3 with no issues. Perhaps this might be an iMac-specific problem after all? As mentioned above, it seems that trying a USB hub would be an easy (and cheap) thing to try and would save much time and additional frustration if it actually fixes the problem.

Also note that according to Capture Integration's blog, Mojave is not officially supported in C1 v11.3 https://captureintegration.com/mac-os-mojave-10-14-not-currently-supported-in-capture-one-11/ (I am a few updates behind on both, as I am generally in no rush to fix things that aren't broke).

Hope you get this sorted out soon!

John

Thank you for your kind words John.

If only Apple made beta versions of their operating system available to software developers so that they could ensure their software would be compatible on the release of the OS.

I won't hold my breath for the next version of Capture One to fix the problem!

Kind regards,


Gerald.

 

[gerald.d]

Just an aside here...

I don't half envy you guys in the US who have dealers such as CI and DT. Clearly the Phase One business model works very well for folks in the US. Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to learn that CI would have sent out an email to their customers in advance of Mojave launching saying "don't upgrade yet."

But that doesn't excuse Phase One from not being on the ball with regards a major OS release.

Were I a US resident I don't doubt for a moment that my experience with Phase One would have been completely different to that which I have had to suffer.

Had I been in the US and bought my back from CI or DT I am sure they would have informed me - don't buy an iMac, and even if you buy one of Apple's proper computers, you should purchase this powered hub to ensure you have no problems.

And no doubt the complete debacle regarding the provision of the loaner back would never have happened. Heck. I probably would be shooting away with my own back totally oblivious to any possible problem whatsoever.

But we don't all live in the US.

Those of us in the rest of the world have to deal with dealers for whom - regardless of how well intentioned they are - sales of Phase One products maybe represent 2-5% of their turnover.

And then even when we are dealing directly with a Phase One office in Asia, are let down, lied to, and fed BS for literally weeks on end.

And then "the mothership" says "ooh, sorry for the shipping delays, this was caused by shipping delays, which weren't within our control." When the opposite is patently obvious.

F' them.

Is it really too much to ask Phase One to deliver on their promises so that I can wake up in the morning, wander to my studio room, stick a watch in front of the camera, and snap a photo?

 

[gerald.d]

"I have send you the link for the KB article showing what USB hub's we have tried out and they seems to work fine and stable. We kindly again ask you to try one out.

Or - you are more than welcome to send us your iMac - we will be happy to try it out as out location - keep you posted and let you know why this iMac will not connect with the back on USB. I assume you have tried a thunderbolt to firewire adapter or you are shooting to CF-card in order to get your images made."

FML.

FP1.

 

[jng]

If all of life's problems could be fixed with a $50 USB hub, I'd pack my house with them. But first I'd need to clear out all the electronic detritus that I've accumulated over the years - I've lost count of how many useless Apple connectors and adapters I've gone through by now.

Actually all this reminds me of when I discovered that all of my Thunderbolt 2 devices were rendered useless on my shiny new USB3-only Macbook. Turns out that the Thunderbolt2 -> Thunderbolt3 adapter that Apple was more than happy to gouge me over didn't work. Why? Because the Macbook's USB3 port isn't compatible! Of course none of the "Geniuses" at the Apple store knew this, nor was it in any official Apple documentation - I had to show them based on my own internet surfing. So not all USB3 ports are created equal, at least not by Apple. Go figure. :banghead:

 

[dougpeterson]

I definitely hear that you are very frustrated. But the bottom line is that if you're having problems connecting a camera to an iMac (regardless of make/model of the camera) then you should test using a high-quality powered hub in between. That will very likely solve the issue.

 

[dougpeterson]

Re Mojave it's generally solid advice to avoid updating the OS on any production/professional/work-oriented computer until 1) The OS has received at least one major bug fix release and 2) every program that is essential to your workflow has been updated at least once since that update. This is advice I would provide any working pro or serious enthusiast regardless of the OS, program, or workflow in question (camera or otherwise).

P1 has the highest development memberships for both Windows and Mac and tests C1 on alphas and betas of upcoming OS's. However, changes can happen late in the OS beta process and rarely-but-sometimes even happen between the GM (gold master) and the released public version. C1 is usually updated within a month or two of the release of a new OS.

 

[Leigh]

To this day I do not know why we have to contact "our" dealer for these type of issues. Most if not all backs come with a 5 year loaner warranty. Our gear is registered on the Phase site by serial number and owner. Why should we not be able to contact the "importer" or the nearest Phase office for the promised loaner with our Phase site information?

Because your "dealer" gets a portion of the sales price to pay for supporting you.

- Leigh

 

[Pradeep]

Interestingly, having just upgraded to macOS Mojave, the first thing I got when trying to connect the back to the computer this morning was a message to the effect of "USB ports shut down due to USB accessory attempting to draw too much power."

Now if someone could explain to me why - when all USB power options on the back are set to "off" - the back tries to draw too much power from the computer simply by connecting it, I'm all ears.


Gerald.

Gerald, I don't know if this helps but I had a similar problem last year with my brand new Macbook Pro and brand new Samsung T3 1 TB SSD drives. One of them suddenly went 'dark', after having worked well for over a week. Every time I connected it I got the same message as above - "USB accessory drawing too much power". Could not read it at all. The other T3 was working fine. I thought it was my Macbook and when I got back home I tried it with my MacPro - same result, Tried with a powered Hub, same and even tried it on my Windows machines - same result. The device was practically dead.

Contacted Samsung, they said 'never heard of anything like this'. Long story...... they accepted it was a faulty drive and thankfully since it was brand new, replaced it. Since then have had no problems plugging both the T3's at the same time into my Macbook.

So it is possible that the problem may not be with your USB ports or you iMac at all.