Phase One - a cautionary tale regarding their "support"

[gerald.d]

If you are also using a USB-3->USB-C adapter this would make three connections (cable->booster->adapter) and therefore three potential sources of failure.

Why would I be using one of those?

It really is quite remarkable how people seem to have missed the fact that the ONLY thing that there is a problem with is the Phase One backs, and yet still they go after everything else in the chain.

One more time.

Based on everything I have tested, everything I have read, and everything that Phase One have stated, it is my firm belief that the Phase One backs do not comply with USB specs.

Do you know why I suspect people have success with the OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock that I am being sent? Because it has “high powered” (strictly speaking, a “charging downstream port”, or “CDP”) USB 3.1 Gen 1 ports (one front and one rear) that can provide 1.5 amps to the USB peripheral immediately upon connecting.

USB 3.1 Gen 1 is a renaming of the “old” USB 3.0 spec. The standard USB 3.0 specification for current delivery is just 0.9 amps. But it’s more complicated than that, because any connected device must initially present itself as a low-power device (requiring no more than 150mA of current), before then negotiating with the host to request additional current.

So I will ask again... how much current does a Phase One back draw over USB 3.0?

And again. I don’t expect to be given an answer.

 

[dougpeterson]

You have a legitimate gripe that your dealers communication/execution of your loaner was not as it should have. It’s also reasonable that you think more detailed technical description should be on the P1 website. But your question regarding amperage draw is not relevant. The IQ fully and strictly complies with the USB specification, including amperage draw.

It’s very common that an iMac won’t tether a camera (any brand or mode) directly plugged into its USB ports, including when it previously worked and including when that iMac continues to work without issue with other usb devices. When I say common I mean we field a call about this at least once a month, from both our P1 hardware users and canon-Nikon-Sony users who are calling because they assume the issue is with Capture One. Most of the time most iMacs are fine with most cameras, but they are problematic (across all camera makes and by models) far more often than the other macs.

This is *especially* true when using third party cables that exceed the specification for USB3 cable length (which is 3 meters or 10 feet), such as a 15ft TetherTools cable. That cable is indeed a very good cable (though I definitely prefer the StarTech active extender) but it is most definitely beyond-spec and can cause issues, especially when combined with a lower-quality USB port like those in the iMac.

Using a hub resolves these iMac issues.

Again, since you seem to distrust the advice you’re receiving (I would take insult since I work very very hard to make sure any of my technical advice is extremely well backed by evidence and experience, but I assume you don’t intend that and are just frustrated), don’t trust this post, or Phase One. Call up a local digital tech or rental house and ask their experience tethering to the iMac. Or call up TetherTools. It’s not a P1 issue; it’s not a Canon issue, it’s not a Nikon issue - it’s an iMac issue.

At least that is the overwhelmingly likely culprit and should be the working assumption until disproven.

This will be my final post on this thread. Your frustration is understandable but it seems to be creating a confrontational and mean spirited tone in which I don’t feel my highly-experienced advice on this topic is fruitful. You’ve even threatened to use my posts as fodder for a lawsuit :/. Best wishes.

 

[JeRuFo]

Way to go the extra mile, Doug. A true credit to your business.

 

[rriley]

It’s very common that an iMac won’t tether a camera (any brand or mode) directly plugged into its USB ports, including when it previously worked and including when that iMac continues to work without issue with other usb devices. When I say common I mean we field a call about this at least once a month, from both our P1 hardware users and canon-Nikon-Sony users who are calling because they assume the issue is with Capture One. Most of the time most iMacs are fine with most cameras, but they are problematic (across all camera makes and by models) far more often than the other macs.

This is *especially* true when using third party cables that exceed the specification for USB3 cable length (which is 3 meters or 10 feet), such as a 15ft TetherTools cable. That cable is indeed a very good cable (though I definitely prefer the StarTech active extender) but it is most definitely beyond-spec and can cause issues, especially when combined with a lower-quality USB port like those in the iMac.

QUOTE]

I had the same tethering problem with my XF IQ3100. CI tried to be very helpful, I finally purchased another cable recommended by CI, and then purchased a powered ups interface but still had occasional issues The camera was sent back to the factory and was returned with tethering working properly. I have never had a tethering problem with my Canon or Leica SL. Never Ever!

As an additional comment, the support I received from CI on the tethering issue and other issues was excellent, just as it should have been.

 

[dougpeterson]

I had the same tethering problem with my XF IQ3100. CI tried to be very helpful, I finally purchased another cable recommended by CI, and then purchased a powered ups interface but still had occasional issues The camera was sent back to the factory and was returned with tethering working properly. I have never had a tethering problem with my Canon or Leica SL. Never Ever!

Absolutely.

The fact that iMacs can be problematic does not mean every problem with an iMac is due to the iMac. The cable, back, batteries, settings, etc all still need to be examined. 9 out of 10 times it's not the back. But that means 1 out of 10 times it absolutely is. So it makes sense that CI advised suggested the cable and hub route first, and also that when those did not resolve the issue that they had the back sent to the factory for examination.

In this case my understanding is the back was sent to P1 and nothing wrong was found. That doesn't 100.000% eliminate the chance of the back being the culprit, but it pushes it far far down the order of things to consider.

 

[gerald.d]

How much current does the back draw when initially connected to the computer, Doug?

And what is the maximum current it will attempt to draw during tethered operation?

 

[med]

How much current does the back draw when initially connected to the computer, Doug?

And what is the maximum current it will attempt to draw during tethered operation?

If the IQ back was out of spec, surely others would be having the same issue?

 

[vjbelle]

This will be my final post on this thread. Your frustration is understandable but it seems to be creating a confrontational and mean spirited tone in which I don’t feel my highly-experienced advice on this topic is fruitful. You’ve even threatened to use my posts as fodder for a lawsuit :/. Best wishes.

:thumbs::thumbs:

To say that Gerald is a little over the top would be an understatement!!

As always thanks for your input.

Victor

 

[gerald.d]

If the IQ back was out of spec, surely others would be having the same issue?

That’s kind of the point.

Almost everybody is.

 

[med]

That’s kind of the point.

Almost everybody is.

Almost everybody is? Not sure where you are drawing that conclusion from.

Either way, why take Phase or a dealer’s word for it if they answered this question? I doubt you would believe their answer anyway. Something like this can tell you everything you need to know (assuming it supports USB 3.1

 

[gerald.d]

Almost everybody is? Not sure where you are drawing that conclusion from.

Either way, why take Phase or a dealer’s word for it if they answered this question? I doubt you would believe their answer anyway. Something like this can tell you everything you need to know (assuming it supports USB 3.1

I draw that conclusion because it would appear to be the case, based on advice given here, that a significant proportion of people tethering Phase One backs use a powered hub ("almost everyone" was on reflection maybe somewhat hyperbolic - forgive me) in the chain.

Many thanks for providing the link to that widget. I will most definitely be buying one. And you're right. Based on my interactions with Phase One in Denmark, I wouldn't believe a single claim they made. They demonstrably lied, time and time again, regarding the delays in getting the loaner back to me - why should I be expected to believe a single word they say?

Kind regards,


Gerald.

 

[med]

I draw that conclusion because it would appear to be the case, based on advice given here, that a significant proportion of people tethering Phase One backs use a powered hub ("almost everyone" was on reflection maybe somewhat hyperbolic - forgive me) in the chain.

Many thanks for providing the link to that widget. I will most definitely be buying one. And you're right. Based on my interactions with Phase One in Denmark, I wouldn't believe a single claim they made. They demonstrably lied, time and time again, regarding the delays in getting the loaner back to me - why should I be expected to believe a single word they say?

Kind regards,


Gerald.

Gotcha. Sorry, I thought you were specifically referring to the “USB device drawing too much power” issue. With regards to many (most?) people using a USB hub I think that is not necessarily due to Phase (or other cameras) being “out of spec” but rather it has become common practice due to the unreliability of USB in general when you throw power, lots of data, and long cables into the mix.

While I personally haven’t had any problems with digital backs (my Aptus required a hub for a different reason, however), I have had many random issues with USB hard drives over the years, some undoubtedly due to file systems yet many were hardware related... whether the fault of the HD control board manufacturer, the computer hardware manufacturer, or Apple/Microsoft, who knows? I’ve just become used to switching cables, computers, adding a hub, whatever... just comes with the territory with USB as far as I’m converned.

Just my two pence, for whatever it is worth (not much). I do think that it would be worthwhile on your case to, in addition to trying the hub Phase is sending you, head to the nearest Apple Store (or Mac retailer) if you have one where you’re located and try your back on an iMac (and/or other Macs). That could tell you a lot, even if Phase isn’t!

If you end up ordering the widget I would be curious if it works. If it doesn’t it is hardly any skin off your teeth.

Cheers.

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Doug,

I appreciate your willingness to help.

Things with computers can go wrong and trouble shooting tends to be complex.

Just to say, I happen to have an USB cable that draws to much power. Who knows, it may have a short. In my case it will not drive my ColorMunki Photo.

I very much understand that the 'OP' is upset. As far as I understand he was shipped an replacement and he did some serious air travel to pick it up, and it was simply not there.

Similar things happened to me, in the US. The company I was working for sent a computer system to Idaho Falls, and I flew to Idaho Falls to set it up. I had missed two connections that flight, so I arrived 24 hours late tired as h__l. So I phoned the office in Idaho Falls and said that I wanted to take the rest of the day off. They told me 'you are in no hurry, it is still stuck in customs at Salt Lake City'. When it finally arrived it was about a week late.

Also, my company needed a replacement board for a fiber optic reflected memory device. So, Westinghouse said that they will ship on Friday, that is next day. So, our company said, you don't need to send it. We are having a guy coming from Pittsburg to Sweden Friday, he can pick it up. Westinghouse said, uhm, can you wait a week?

So, Friday next week a guy flew from Stockholm to Pittsburg, Westinghouse offices sent that replacement board to the airport by cab and my colleague flew back to Sweden without even leaving the terminal in Pittsburg.

All dealers are not created equal. Here in Sweden we now have two dealers for Phase One. One is like H&B, movers of boxes. But that company has bought all competition.

Back in 2013, when I bought my second hand P45+ it arrived without viewfinder masks. So I asked Scandinavian Photo, who was official dealer for Phase One for viewfinder masks for the P45+.

• Yes, they have heard about the P45+ cameras they were supposed to be selling.
• But, a viewfinder mask? What is it? Can you describe? No, no you need go to Hasselblad for that.

In the end, they sent me to a real dealer. That dealer suggested that he had an open box of view finder masks, it was three masks out of five, so he offered it to me at 60% of the price. I am still using that mask and I still have two spares.

As I said, not all dealers are created equal.

Best regards
Erik

You have a legitimate gripe that your dealers communication/execution of your loaner was not as it should have. ItÂ’s also reasonable that you think more detailed technical description should be on the P1 website. But your question regarding amperage draw is not relevant. The IQ fully and strictly complies with the USB specification, including amperage draw.

ItÂ’s very common that an iMac wonÂ’t tether a camera (any brand or mode) directly plugged into its USB ports, including when it previously worked and including when that iMac continues to work without issue with other usb devices. When I say common I mean we field a call about this at least once a month, from both our P1 hardware users and canon-Nikon-Sony users who are calling because they assume the issue is with Capture One. Most of the time most iMacs are fine with most cameras, but they are problematic (across all camera makes and by models) far more often than the other macs.

This is *especially* true when using third party cables that exceed the specification for USB3 cable length (which is 3 meters or 10 feet), such as a 15ft TetherTools cable. That cable is indeed a very good cable (though I definitely prefer the StarTech active extender) but it is most definitely beyond-spec and can cause issues, especially when combined with a lower-quality USB port like those in the iMac.

Using a hub resolves these iMac issues.

Again, since you seem to distrust the advice youÂ’re receiving (I would take insult since I work very very hard to make sure any of my technical advice is extremely well backed by evidence and experience, but I assume you donÂ’t intend that and are just frustrated), donÂ’t trust this post, or Phase One. Call up a local digital tech or rental house and ask their experience tethering to the iMac. Or call up TetherTools. ItÂ’s not a P1 issue; itÂ’s not a Canon issue, itÂ’s not a Nikon issue - itÂ’s an iMac issue.

At least that is the overwhelmingly likely culprit and should be the working assumption until disproven.

This will be my final post on this thread. Your frustration is understandable but it seems to be creating a confrontational and mean spirited tone in which I donÂ’t feel my highly-experienced advice on this topic is fruitful. YouÂ’ve even threatened to use my posts as fodder for a lawsuit :/. Best wishes.

 

[gerald.d]

Some closure at last.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, my dealer very kindly, and at their expense, has sent me the OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock, along with replacement tethering cables (one from Phase One, and another of the Tethertool cables that I was using).

Having now tested the dock with my IQ3 100 and many other USB peripherals, I am 100% convinced that my earlier theory that the IQ1 300 backs are NOT compliant with USB specs is correct.

Why?

Well - this dock is recommended to overcome the "issue" that the USB ports on the iMac are "under-powered", or faulty, or don't conform to specs, and hence can't be considered to be reliable for tethering. Because the people at Apple are stupid, and of course the people at Phase One are all geniuses (Ok maybe slight hyperbole there, but this is basically what Phase One support were telling me. Words to the effect of "yeah, the guys at Apple and Microsoft are smart, but they're not as smart as us").

But guess what - even if I connect the back to the standard USB ports on the OWC dock, the back still does not tether reliably (in fact, I haven't managed to get it to tether at all using these ports yet, but I haven't run through the exhaustive list of combinations of turning things on and off and plugging and unplugging connections).

So, I would be fascinated to learn from anyone here - including those expert in such matters, why they think my back won't connect even though I am now connecting it to the iMac via a powered hub. Are the people at OWC also shipping shoddy product, like Apple are? Is that possibly the case? Nah. I don't think so, because...

Of course, as anticipated all along, if I connect the back to the high powered USB port - a port that provides 1.5A of current, intended to charge peripherals such as iPads or iPhones - it tethers. Instantly. Pull the cable out, put it back in. Tethers. Turn the back off, turn the back on. Tethers. Pull the battery from the back, put the battery back in. Tethers.

Tomorrow I will put it through some "real world' testing, but my strong suspicion is that connecting the IQ3 100 to the high power USB port on the OWC dock will provide a permanent and reliable solution.

I will state it again.

Until someone can prove to me that the Phase One backs are compliant, I will refuse to believe that they are. The back is the only USB peripheral I have ever had issues with connecting to my iMac directly. It is also the only USB peripheral that I have experienced issues with when connecting to the OWC standard USB ports.

Using a powered hub is not the solution to the tethering issue. Using a powered hub with a high power USB port that can deliver 1.5A of current is.

 

[earburner]

Just out of interest have you tried tethering on another computer?
Btw is you Imac up to date with all updates including firmware?

Have you taken your back into your dealer and tested it there on their computer?

Its likely phase one use the USB Battery Charging 1.0 or 1.1 which is all part of the USB standards and why it works when you put it in a 1.5 amp port.. P1 is likely to of implemented this as the back has battery charging options..

USB 3.0 will support 900mA if negotiated, this likely where you mac refuses to go to the higher power. Using the 1.5amp port on the hub will ignore the negotiation and work.


There are very good reasons why phase one would stick to the standards... P1 will be using off the shelf usb chips. Deviating from the standards would be a very stupid thing to do... apple on the other hand just tell you they don't support higher power when you plug it in...


USB has evolved massively over the last 20 years and high power was never in the original design. USB C now has much better options for higher power using the USB C PD standard. It would be good if P1 use some of the new power delivery standards on the IQ4

 

[Christopher]

My IQ3100 works fine without a hub in both of my MacBook Pros (2012/2016) and on my windows PC. Never had a problem or disconnect. So it’s certainly not a general back problem otherwise it would work. In addition, i know two rental studios with two IQ3100 which are 90%all the time thethered to countless computers and the only problems they are talking about have to do with old OS or c1 versions...

 

[gerald.d]

So a link to this video on tethering popped up in my inbox today, so of course I couldn’t help but watch it.

https://youtu.be/fW5X1SlSja8

And a little over 2 minutes into the video...

The gentleman from Phase One explains the reason for dropping the legacy FW800 port found on the IQ1 series because basically “now you need a hub to use it” (which is of course true), and goes on to say how using the USB3 port on the IQ1 series you can connect to, for example, “this MacBook Pro... and pretty much anything else that’s out there”.

Seems they haven’t learned a thing.

 

[Abstraction]

So a link to this video on tethering popped up in my inbox today, so of course I couldn’t help but watch it.

https://youtu.be/fW5X1SlSja8

And a little over 2 minutes into the video...

The gentleman from Phase One explains the reason for dropping the legacy FW800 port found on the IQ1 series because basically “now you need a hub to use it” (which is of course true), and goes on to say how using the USB3 port on the IQ1 series you can connect to, for example, “this MacBook Pro... and pretty much anything else that’s out there”.

Seems they haven’t learned a thing.

If I were to guess, I would say that P1 sources their USB chip from an established supplier to ensure compatibility with the widest range of computer systems. It serves no purpose for a small company supplying a niche market to deviate from an established standard, thereby reinventing the wheel and causing an increased support overhead. They just have nothing to gain by doing so.

Apple, on the other hand, has a good reason to deviate from the standard. They're big enough and by deviating from the standard, they can force their user base into a semi-proprietary system, to use their own accessories, thereby generating greater revenues.

So, my guess would be that it's the Mac that's causing incompatibilities, rather than the back. It just makes no sense for an accessory maker to deviate from the standard. You could have an old or faulty USB chip in the back or some other issue, but forcing a proprietary USB protocol is very far from the realm of possibilities.

 

[gerald.d]

If I were to guess, I would say that P1 sources their USB chip from an established supplier to ensure compatibility with the widest range of computer systems. It serves no purpose for a small company supplying a niche market to deviate from an established standard, thereby reinventing the wheel and causing an increased support overhead. They just have nothing to gain by doing so.

Apple, on the other hand, has a good reason to deviate from the standard. They're big enough and by deviating from the standard, they can force their user base into a semi-proprietary system, to use their own accessories, thereby generating greater revenues.

So, my guess would be that it's the Mac that's causing incompatibilities, rather than the back. It just makes no sense for an accessory maker to deviate from the standard. You could have an old or faulty USB chip in the back or some other issue, but forcing a proprietary USB protocol is very far from the realm of possibilities.

*Sigh*

Have you read the whole thread? You're just regurgitating stuff that has already been proven to be incorrect.

One more time. For the record. And then I'm out of here.

The back DOES NOT reliably tether when using a standard USB3 port on the OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock.

The back DOES tether pretty much faultlessly when using the high powered USB3 port on the OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock.

And still you want to say the fault is with the Mac.

Reply if you want, but I won't be wasting my time responding again to anyone who continues to blindly support Phase One on this issue.

 

[faberryman]

*Sigh*

Have you read the whole thread? You're just regurgitating stuff that has already been proven to be incorrect.

One more time. For the record. And then I'm out of here.

The back DOES NOT reliably tether when using a standard USB3 port on the OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock.

The back DOES tether pretty much faultlessly when using the high powered USB3 port on the OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock.

And still you want to say the fault is with the Mac.

Reply if you want, but I won't be wasting my time responding again to anyone who continues to blindly support Phase One on this issue.

So is the take away that the Phase One back needs a 1.5A USB port to reliably tether and the USB ports on the Mac only supply 900mA? I guess you could blame either the Phase One back or the Mac depending on where your predilections lie.