Leica S3

[atanabe]

The announcement of the S3 has me asking more questions about why and what rather than when and where can I purchase it. Has anyone been witness to the actual price of the new S3? So far it has been speculation on the price and no confirmation. I do question the need for 4k video, the size of the body/lens would require a sizable rig for any production worthy of 4k resolution. At the $20k price, a lot better dedicated video solutions are out there. My nine year old S2 still takes images believe it or not, yes limited in ISO but for landscape work does admirably. So would I benefit from the increased resolution -meh, but the high ISO would allow me to use it handheld more often.

Then when you start asking more and more questions, reality strikes and you see that you can get a weather sealed, 50 mpx camera with a 63 and 45 mm lens for lofty price of $5700. So instead of upgrading to the S3, I will get the Fuji GFX 50R and hold onto my much depreciated S2, 45, 70 and 180. I will hold off on getting the 100 Summicron for the S and transition to the Fuji, worst case I do not like the Fuji and lose a bit in the transaction. The fall would be more like from a stair than a cliff.

 

[Neimad]

S users are anything but quiet and ,in my experience ,have some influence with their dealers . I sympathize with your poor luck ...as had your S2 been within the 5 year window ..it would have been covered . I just had the sensor in my S 006 replaced (under warranty )(took about 5-6 weeks in total ) .

I also have a S 007 which has been perfect now for two years . It really depends if you enjoy your S system and want to continue with it . Getting another 4 years out of a S 007 seems like a good bet ,,if the camera is worth $3-4K after that you have no more than $1500 year in depreciation . Can you do better with a Fuji or HB ?

Now if you prefer the Fuji or HB that is a different decision .

I do appreciate how you must feel ..believe me not all my repairs have gone smoothly .

I was not looking to make a decision base on the depreciation but based on what I can get now for the $8,000 that Leica is asking for the "good will" on the corroded sensor.
In fact, I would have probably take the refurbished S 007 if the Leica offer was around $6,500.
Now that I started to look around, I see plenty of interesting options I was not even thinking about before. As an example, I could combine a Fuji MF GFX50R and a Nikon FF D850. I would have the best of both worlds and it will be even a smaller package than the S with the 3 lenses (35, 70, 120). More resolution, more flexibility and probably more reliability than the S007.

The only downside is the big loss I will take on the S lenses as the second market is not very good for these lenses. This is why I'm looking for another option with the GFX 50R now and the new Sigma of the Panasonic L-Mount next year to use my S lenses.

When I bought the S2, it had a clear advantage on the market in terms of resolution and portability. The S2 was almost the first MF that I started to use outside a studio with no tripod and no light. It was quite rare at that time to be able to do this with a Medium Format camera. I really enjoyed using it but the market changed a lot since I bought the S2 when the Leica offering did not evolve as fast.

 

[Neimad]

The announcement of the S3 has me asking more questions about why and what rather than when and where can I purchase it. Has anyone been witness to the actual price of the new S3? So far it has been speculation on the price and no confirmation. I do question the need for 4k video, the size of the body/lens would require a sizable rig for any production worthy of 4k resolution. At the $20k price, a lot better dedicated video solutions are out there. My nine year old S2 still takes images believe it or not, yes limited in ISO but for landscape work does admirably. So would I benefit from the increased resolution -meh, but the high ISO would allow me to use it handheld more often.

Then when you start asking more and more questions, reality strikes and you see that you can get a weather sealed, 50 mpx camera with a 63 and 45 mm lens for lofty price of $5700. So instead of upgrading to the S3, I will get the Fuji GFX 50R and hold onto my much depreciated S2, 45, 70 and 180. I will hold off on getting the 100 Summicron for the S and transition to the Fuji, worst case I do not like the Fuji and lose a bit in the transaction. The fall would be more like from a stair than a cliff.

I'm exactly in the same boat except that my S2 has a corroded sensor and it's now a brick.
I'm looking to take the GFX 50R and potentially one of the new L-Mount FF next year. I'm actually very interested in the idea of the Sigma FF Foveon L-Mount Body. It will be a perfect fit for my S lenses for landscape.

 

[DB5]

Yeah the M and, to an extent, the SL are in a different category.

The M is so niche and so special that it can be priced how ever they like and people will continue to buy it.

The S is different though. It's aimed at a demographic that is a far more competitive market, where specification and bottom line really matters to the working Pro.

A Fuji GFX-100 at a third of the cost with a spec sheet that is off the charts and as revolutionary as it is, means that the S is really looking like a very tough sell.

I've never actually seen a response so great, in my 30 years of working professionally, that has people flocking to one particular system so quickly.

 

[Neimad]

I totally agree. The M is very unique with almost no competition. It's also more like a "leisure" camera. At least, I don't use it professionally in my case.

I'm not sure about the SL. I think it had some clear advantages when it was launched. The resolution was good, the built quality and viewfinder were excellent. It was not a niche but it was above the competition. It was probably the first mirrorless to really compete with pro DSLRs. The only issue was the lack of lenses. But same as for the S, the competition is now moving fast. It will be interesting to see how it turns for Leica with the new L-Mount alliance.

The S was a little like the SL at launch: Clear competitive advantages with high resolution and portability.
It has lost both advantages now. There are still the advantages of the viewfinder and operating conditions (Rain, humidity ..) but I don't think it's going to make the difference if the S3 is priced at the current price of the S007 The S3.

Leica did not announced the price of the S3 and there is probably a good reason for this. There are still working on it.
Here are my guess:
Below $15K: It will sell well. It will probably bring new users who came to Leica with the SL and are now looking for higher resolution.
Between $15K-20K: Challenging sell but current users will probably upgrade from their S007 or S2/S006. Especially if pricing is close to $15K.
Above $20K: Tough sell. It will be very difficult to bring new users to the system. Current users may also take the decision to move to another system.

 

[Photo Lawyer]

Leica did not announced the price of the S3 and there is probably a good reason for this. There are still working on it.
Here are my guess:
Below $15K: It will sell well. It will probably bring new users who came to Leica with the SL and are now looking for higher resolution.
Between $15K-20K: Challenging sell but current users will probably upgrade from their S007 or S2/S006. Especially if pricing is close to $15K.
Above $20K: Tough sell. It will be very difficult to bring new users to the system. Current users may also take the decision to move to another system.

I have the 007, and did have the 006 and S2. But I think the 007 may be the end of the line for me. I imagine that Leica will bump the SL2 over 40MP and that system is much more maneuverable than the S system is. The SL's lenses, too, appear to be an improvement over the S line (which are still fantastic, but still). It is difficult to see what lays ahead for the S. I mean, Leica didn't even provide a touchscreen for the S3.

 

[Neimad]

I have the 007, and did have the 006 and S2. But I think the 007 may be the end of the line for me. I imagine that Leica will bump the SL2 over 40MP and that system is much more maneuverable than the S system is. The SL's lenses, too, appear to be an improvement over the S line (which are still fantastic, but still). It is difficult to see what lays ahead for the S. I mean, Leica didn't even provide a touchscreen for the S3.

Agree. On top of that, you can also continue to use the S lenses on the SL body. Probably not there best but definitely a good way to have smooth transition to the L-Mount

 

[Photo Lawyer]

Agree. On top of that, you can also continue to use the S lenses on the SL body. Probably not there best but definitely a good way to have smooth transition to the L-Mount

Oh, and one more thing. I use P1 with my M10s. Now the S3 and Hasselblad seem to be the only MF not supported by the software. I don't ever plan to go back to LR.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

I am also a bit surprised that no one has made a functioning S to GF adapter yet. It seems like the cost of the S lenses on the secondary market is now quite low (lower than M lenses at times), it seems natural that people might want to use them on the Fuji GFX cameras...is reverse engineering the focus and aperture that hard?

Neimad: I suspect you are spot-on about the pricing. My guess is that they are watching the press and the forum posts and have probably gathered that people are not at all impressed with the 24K euro balloon that they floated. Generally Leica (and I guess most companies) price up to the absolute highest point that they can without them thinking that they will alienate the majority of their customers. Since they have little in the way of institutional sales for the S system (unlike Phase, for example, with their stuff selling to museums, archives and rental houses etc), Leica still needs to sell to individual end users...even if their market is made up of a lot of price-insensitive users, that does not mean they are value-insensitive. Even people who can afford to spend a lot of money rarely like to do so unless they feel like they are getting a good deal. This is why the Lunar was such a fiasco for Hasselblad...everyone realized it was a dressed up Sony at five times the price and they responded with the disdain it deserved. With the S3 I think Leica internally feels like it needs to sell it for the same or more than the existing S007, since it believes it to be a large upgrade in resolution, one which is currently higher than the GFX and Hasselblad etc. My guess is that they will start it around 21-23,000 USD...a small increase over the retail. It will sell slowly at that price, and they will sell for several thousand less as "demos" and "used like-new" for people who know how to ask for a better deal and know where to look. Vanishingly few new buyers will come in, and Leica will phase out the system in 4-6 years. That is my ouija prediction.

I hope I am wrong, but without a new lens or meaningful accessory in four years and an upgrade which is literally a new sensor in a body that had R&D finished 5 years ago...does not look good. Like many of you, I have been here before with the R system...the end looked a little similar there as it does here.

 

[JeRuFo]

Or you could see it in a whole other way, it has never been cheaper to get into the S-system, if the lenses are really that cheap nowadays.

People that bought a Leica S in the past must have liked it. I'm very glad that it doesn't look like a lot will change about the design. The optical viewfinder is brilliant and having basically no menu to contend with is a breath of fresh air. I won't be buying, but I know quite a few people that are quite interested in an old school kind of camera. And they must have sold enough of the S007 to justify making another one. I understand all the excitement about the GFX100S and GFX50R (though a lot less, that's basically a 5 year old sensor when it hits the market and not really all that different from the GFX which has been on the market for quite a while), but burning a new camera and recommending to sell your kit for parts before the specs or the price have even been announced is a bit weird.

 

[Shashin]

(though a lot less, that's basically a 5 year old sensor when it hits the market and not really all that different from the GFX which has been on the market for quite a while)

And arguably the best sensor on the market today. I guess the question would be what limitation it presents to the photographer and if there is something better?

 

[JeRuFo]

And arguably the best sensor on the market today. I guess the question would be what limitation it presents to the photographer and if there is something better?

It is a brilliant allround sensor (though not the best in any aspect of it), but it is a bit strange to be so excited about a camera that has been on the market in almost the same shape for quite a while. The GFX50S and R are as different as night and later that night. And with the new sensors available to the public only months after you can get a GFX50R, that seems strange to me, since the new sensor is so much more suited to a mirrorless body.

 

[msadat]

though it might come in at 24k, i dont think it will last. all who bought into the S (me too) should wait and then we will all get the s3. i still have my s6 and 7. it seems for me, that my recycle time with mdeium format is very long for some reseaon. so i will be sitting tight for the right moment, but before that i need a system upgrade, imagine coming home with 1000 60 meg files!!

 

[jduncan]

24kEuros? Ouch! That's a really, really tough sell :-(

Some tech specs have leaked:
https://leicarumors.com/2018/09/25/...formation-full-technical-specifications.aspx/

Hi,

It's very hard sold to expand the market, but maybe it's not so expensive for people that already buy into Leica and the system S in particular.
The issue I see is that the competency has changed a lot. When it was introduced the Leica S was unique: Unique Sensor and sensor size, the Unique form factor for modern (at the time) MF systems,
unique fast glass (the only complaint lens in terms of fast and "modern" was the Hasselblad 100mm f2.2), unique colors and rendering.

Nowadays we have the Fuji and the Hasselblad X, it's not as easy as it uses to be. Normal buyers could say: Enough already let's sale and control the losses.
But if the look of the images is there, and Leica introduces a couple of new faster lenses, the machine could prove to be a total success.

There is something sexy about it Like in the song lyrics: "can't take my eyes off of you".
Everytime a new S comes to the market I spend a few weeks looking and lusting over it like stupid, until financial sense kicks in

Best regards,

 

[miska]

Hands-on preview:
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/1038918787/photokina-2018-hands-on-with-the-leica-s3?slide=3

What I like about the S-line vs the Fuji is the aspect ratio of the Leica. And of course the lenses, although I think the Fuji offering is quite nice.
But to be honest, I have the feeling that for me, the quality gap between a Sony A7Riii and the S3 is too small to plunk 20k+ Euros on a body and probably the same into lenses.

 

[tjv]

5 way AF joystick? Is that an indication it has multiple focus points, or simply for use in live view? From the way it read it seemed like he was talking about how it operated when looking through the OV?

Hands-on preview:
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/1038918787/photokina-2018-hands-on-with-the-leica-s3?slide=3

What I like about the S-line vs the Fuji is the aspect ratio of the Leica. And of course the lenses, although I think the Fuji offering is quite nice.
But to be honest, I have the feeling that for me, the quality gap between a Sony A7Riii and the S3 is too small to plunk 20k+ Euros on a body and probably the same into lenses.

 

[John_McMaster]

I think the S3 is almost the same as the S(007) but with the new sensor....

john

 

[MGrayson]

Played with one today. Physically indistinguishable from the 007, but sensor much better than current ~50MP crowd. Will it stand out amongst the other next gen samples? I don’t know. But Leica aren’t playing catch-up here.

Matt

 

[mjr]

That's good to hear Matt, I really hope it's a great camera, the S despite it's issues is a superb system. Will you be picking one up?

Mat

 

[MGrayson]

Mat,

I'm on the fence. I wasn't expecting to be so impressed, as I've never felt the lack of resolution. I would still be using the S(006) if I hadn't dropped mine and gotten a great upgrade deal on the damaged body. My *only* complaint with the S system is its weight - and perhaps that means it's time for some diet and exercise on my part. :ROTFL:

I didn't get a long look at the files, but ISO 1600 had perfect color and zero noise straight OOC. I thought it was base ISO. ISO 50000 had visible noise, but less than the S(006) at ISO 800 or the S(007) at ISO 3200. And this is on top of the extra resolution. But it was the natural color and lens rendering that's still what I like most about the S.

Best,

Matt